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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Ar¢tos

Ar¢tos

Member
TeamGhobad said:
nexgen is gonna be 70 bucks a game?



personally im ok with 65.
Click to expand...

Fuck them if they raise the price!
Games in Europe already cost 69€ (78.55$) vs 51.83€ (59$) in US.
I basically stopped buying games at launch, when they release I add them to psprices.com wishlist and wait for sales.
The only game I see myself buying at launch this year /next year is Elden Ring, if I like the gameplay. Everything else can wait for under 30€ sales.
 
Hellgardia

Hellgardia

Member
An optimized chip similar to the RX5700 XT with HW RT capabilities would be my best bet as well.
I would say 10TF with 40CUs. Wouldn't rule out 11TF if they have a bigger chip but i would bet on lower clocks.
 
R

R600

Banned
Hellgardia said:
An optimized chip similar to the RX5700 XT with HW RT capabilities would be my best bet as well.
I would say 10TF with 40CUs. Wouldn't rule out 11TF if they have a bigger chip but i would bet on lower clocks.
Click to expand...
10TF wont work with 40CUs since NaviXT is just under 10TF with boost clocks (around 9.3TF with sustainable clock).

Id say, in console, you would need at least 48CUs for 10TF, since in this case clocks should be above 1600MHz. This brings wattage issue as RT parts will raise TDP anyway, so I think ~9TF is absolute max.
TLZ said:
RuthenicCookie strikes again? Reads awfully similar.

pastebin.com

PlayStation 5 / PS5 - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.
pastebin.com pastebin.com
Click to expand...
Hmm...so 400W for GPU and memory only. Dont know if these leakers got the memo, but anything above 220W (being very generous here) wont find their way in consoles. Even PS3 and 360, at time when Sony and MS went crazy with hardware, didnt cross 220W.
 
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N

Negotiator

Member
TeamGhobad said:
nexgen is gonna be 70 bucks a game?



personally im ok with 65.
Click to expand...

Not really needed.

Base game MSRP is still $60 only because they have tons of additional revenue (season passes, DLCs, MTX, subscriptions, digital sales etc.) these days.

Razor/blades business model at its finest. ;)
 
Dabaus

Dabaus

Banned
Dunno if anybody has mentioned this but, what with all the hints of a new ape escape ive seen floating around, its worth noting that the Reddit PS5 leaker Ruthencookie also said an ape escape was in development. It might be worth revisiting what he said about the PS5 seeing as how almost everything hes said has come true.
 
N

Negotiator

Member
TLZ said:
RuthenicCookie strikes again? Reads awfully similar.

pastebin.com

PlayStation 5 / PS5 - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.
pastebin.com pastebin.com
Click to expand...
72 CUs seems waaaaay more realistic than a 2TB SSD.

Basically that's a 80 CU GPU with 8 CUs disabled. 14.2 TF would certainly need a fat 384-bit bus (so 24GB it is).
 
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ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
TeamGhobad said:
Does RT HW have to be on the SoC?
Click to expand...
Ray-tracking is bandwidth intensive so it is better to be inside the GPU already and not external where you will need to travel the data between GPU, RT HW and RAM.
But yeap it can be outside... it is just not optimal.
 
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Dabaus

Dabaus

Banned
TLZ said:
RuthenicCookie strikes again? Reads awfully similar.

pastebin.com

PlayStation 5 / PS5 - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.
pastebin.com pastebin.com
Click to expand...

Im ignorant when it comes to these things so... That would essentially be a low end, dual GPU set up correct? Basically two lower end GPU's duct taped together. How much would that cost? That seems too good to be true and sounds like it could over heat easily.

I mean, if the rumor that Sony had a hand in Helping with Navi's development early on are true, maybe they get a sweet, sweet discount on it so they can afford to duct tape 2 of them together? Thats assuming alot right there. Plus just the thermodynamics of having 2 GPU's like that. Is that common in the PC world?
 
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ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
Negotiator said:
72 CUs seems waaaaay more realistic than a 2TB SSD.

Basically that's a 80 CU GPU with 8 CUs disabled. 14.2 TF would certainly need a fat 384-bit bus (so 24GB it is).
Click to expand...
He said 64 shaders... that means 72CUs with 8 disabled.

But his maths didn't match... 72CUs is 14.2TFs and not 64CUs.

Edit - 64 Shaders menas 64 per CU lol

Dabaus said:
Im ignorant when it comes to these things so... That would essentially be a low end, dual GPU set up correct? Basically two lower end GPU's duct taped together. How much would that cost? That seems too good to be true and sounds like it could over heat easily.

I mean, if the rumor that Sony had a hand in Helping with Navi's development early on are true, maybe they get a sweet, sweet discount on it so they can afford to duct tape 2 of them together? Thats assuming alot right there. Plus just the thermodynamics of having 2 GPU's like that. Is that common in the PC world?
Click to expand...
Dual-GPU? That is a single CPU.
 
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N

Negotiator

Member
R600 said:
Sure it does, its just exactly 2x 5700, a 180W GPU.
Click to expand...
If they go with a 400mm2 die size, it's possible.

5700 as is seems unoptimized (lots of empty die spaces, high clocks, immature lithography) for a semi-custom console APU that it destined to be released in late 2020 and last 10 years minimum (2020-2030).

Console engineers don't design 2020 console chips with 2019 data in mind. That's what most people don't get. It's AMD that designed a rather expensive mid-range GPU for the PC market to release this year and people extrapolate that for 2020 consoles.
 
nowhat

nowhat

Gold Member
TBiddy said:
I thought it was rather odd, that I had to wait almost a year to buy an XB1. I could imagine that costing them quite a bit of sales.
Click to expand...
When I bought my OG PS4 in March 2014, One hadn't been officially released here in Finland. Dedicated game shops had gray market imports for sale though.

The funny thing was (whether due to lack of official support or not, I cannot say) that those Ones were gathering dust in the shelves, whereas PS4s were consistently sold out pretty much everywhere. I got lucky and was able to find one from the electronics department of a general department store.
 
R

R600

Banned
Negotiator said:
If they go with a 400mm2 die size, it's possible.

5700 as is seems unoptimized (lots of empty die spaces, high clocks, immature lithography) for a semi-custom console APU that it destined to be released in late 2020 and last 10 years minimum (2020-2030).

Console engineers don't design 2020 console chips with 2019 data in mind. That's what most people don't get. It's AMD that designed a rather expensive mid-range GPU for the PC market to release this year and people extrapolate that for 2020 consoles.
Click to expand...
Its completely unreasonable. There is likely a reason why its designed as it is, because AMD engineers would certainly design something that results in smallest possible die, because they are paying TSMC out of their own pockets as well.

2nd point, this would be far, far bigger then 400mm² after RT and CPU is added. On top of that all those memory controllers for so much RAM and 2TB SSD...huh, it would cost them north of 700$

I am well aware how console makers get their chips. Last 2 times around they got downclocked Pitcairn and Polaris. There wont be mythical 14TF 500mm² dies, as Sony would be screaming about that GPU instead of talking SSD speeds, CPU and immersion.
 
N

Negotiator

Member
Insane Metal said:
36 Dual CUs? 2TB SSD? I don't see that being real... lol

Edit: Dual CUs? Something similar to PS4 Pro?
Click to expand...
Seems like a continuation of Cerny's famous butterfly setup to me. They could turn off half of the GPU to provide PS4 Pro power level of BC.

7nm offers 3.3x density scaling as we already know. Does anyone remember how much was the 28nm planar -> 16nm FinFET density bump?
 
R

R600

Banned
Negotiator said:
Seems like a continuation of Cerny's famous butterfly setup to me. They could turn off half of the GPU to provide PS4 Pro power level of BC.

7nm offers 3.3x density scaling as we already know. Does anyone remember how much was the 28nm planar -> 16nm FinFET density bump?
Click to expand...
Or, you know as leaked OQA and Gonzalo said, perhaps it will be Navi Lite (36CUs - as Pro) with RT cores and 2x the clocks compared to Pro - 1800MHz. Continuation of Cerny philosophy...
 
Darius87

Darius87

Member
R600 said:
Mind you, that leak ties up with Gonzalo leak that has boost clock of 1.8GHz, I doubt MS bigger die would have such a high clocks, so perhaps Sony went with smaller die but higher clocks.
Click to expand...
i don't follow leaks where they originated so i don't know, but thing is that 315mm2 is normal sized apu for around 9 -10 Tflops + 8 core zen and no room to spare for RT cores, while i'm pretty sure that scarlet will have bigger then 315mm2 soc regardless these rumors.
 
vpance

vpance

Member
Dabaus said:
Dunno if anybody has mentioned this but, what with all the hints of a new ape escape ive seen floating around, its worth noting that the Reddit PS5 leaker Ruthencookie also said an ape escape was in development. It might be worth revisiting what he said about the PS5 seeing as how almost everything hes said has come true.
Click to expand...

Yes that's why I still got hope for March/April 2020.
 
N

Negotiator

Member
R600 said:
Its completely unreasonable. There is likely a reason why its designed as it is, because AMD engineers would certainly design something that results in smallest possible die, because they are paying TSMC out of their own pockets as well.

2nd point, this would be far, far bigger then 400mm² after RT and CPU is added. On top of that all those memory controllers for so much RAM and 2TB SSD...huh, it would cost them north of 700$

I am well aware how console makers get their chips. Last 2 times around they got downclocked Pitcairn and Polaris. There wont be mythical 14TF 500mm² dies, as Sony would be screaming about that GPU instead of talking SSD speeds, CPU and immersion.
Click to expand...
As I've said before, last time we got conservatively-designed $399 consoles. This time we're getting $499 (MSRP) consoles and the BoM could possibly go as high as $599. That's a $200 BoM difference vs 2013 consoles.

And no, I don't buy the 2TB SSD part. It's gonna be 1TB tops.
 
R

R600

Banned
I
Darius87 said:
i don't follow leaks where they originated so i don't know, but thing is that 315mm2 is normal sized apu for around 9 -10 Tflops + 8 core zen and no room to spare for RT cores, while i'm pretty sure that scarlet will have bigger then 315mm2 soc regardless these rumors.
Click to expand...
I think it would be possible to fit 36CUs @ 1.8GHz (8.3) + RT and Zen2 with 256 bit bus on 316mm² chip(OQA leak). This would mean fast RAM chips would be included for 512 GB/s. So 448 GB/s for GPU and 64 GB/s for CPU and 4GB DDR4.
 
ResilientBanana

ResilientBanana

Member
Negotiator said:
Seems like a continuation of Cerny's famous butterfly setup to me. They could turn off half of the GPU to provide PS4 Pro power level of BC.

7nm offers 3.3x density scaling as we already know. Does anyone remember how much was the 28nm planar -> 16nm FinFET density bump?
Click to expand...
So we're just rolling with this like that would be conceivable?
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
Just to add a bit more...

AMD changed the CU layout with Navi (RDNA) and now you 2 CUs sharing the same cache so it is called Dual CU.

ef847f93-58ce-4c25-a7c7-41708ff434e0.PNG

3af2863e-d5a3-40d5-8757-252ae540215b.PNG
 
Darius87

Darius87

Member
R600 said:
I think it would be possible to fit 36CUs @ 1.8GHz (8.3) + RT and Zen2 with 256 bit bus on 316mm² chip(OQA leak). This would mean fast RAM chips would be included for 512 GB/s. So 448 GB/s for GPU and 64 GB/s for CPU and 4GB DDR4.
Click to expand...

maybe but 1.8Ghz only with better cooling solution but even then 8.3 rdna == 10.3 gcn which is < stadia 10.7 gcn which is dissapointment i hope nothing less then 10Tflops rdna + 8 giga rays RT cores, which seems unlikely to fit in 315mm2.
 
Dabaus

Dabaus

Banned
vpance said:
Yes that's why I still got hope for March/April 2020.
Click to expand...

Probably not happening, not that i would know. I think, especially now that the cheaper xbox model has been canned sony would be in no rush to get 6 months ahead of the new xbox. Assuming price and power levels are near equal i could easily see next gen being similar to how this one played out, even more so. There are always twists and turns though!
 
FranXico

FranXico

Member
If the PS5 was to launch around March or April, we would already be getting leaks from manufacturing sites by now.
 
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Ar¢tos

Ar¢tos

Member
For those hoping big power difference and DF analysis videos to fuel console wars, I fear next gen will be boring as hell.
It will be the one with XX exclusives vs the one with YY exclusives + VR (until the other one gets a VR add-on).
 
JohnnyFootball

JohnnyFootball

GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Lone Wolf said:
I believe all of it. Huge and powerful Xbox vs PS5 Sony Pony Phony console.

Xbox Next 20TF 48Gig RAM

PS5 7.9TF 12Gig RAM

You heard it here first. I have sources too, Various Uncles who work for various game companies.
Click to expand...
Man, you’re dialed in. If arrogant Sony hadn’t been so arrogant it would have been a beast.
 
R

R600

Banned
Darius87 said:
maybe but 1.8Ghz only with better cooling solution but even then 8.3 rdna == 10.3 gcn which is < stadia 10.7 gcn which is dissapointment i hope nothing less then 10Tflops rdna + 8 giga rays RT cores, which seems unlikely to fit in 315mm2.
Click to expand...
Navi XT (9.75TF) is 14% faster then Vega64 (12.56TF) so I think 8.3TF Navi would be closer to 12TF Vega then 10.5TF one in Stadia. There was a reason Google said with cloud they can deliver more perf then if the went with closed box and thermal limits. Thats why everything above 10TF (let alone 14+) is pipe dream.

FranXico said:
If the PS5 was to launch around March or April, we would already be getting leaks from manufacturing sites by now.
Click to expand...
I think OQA leak in May for manufactured dev kits ties pretty well with Gonzalo leak, as well as November release.
 
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N

Negotiator

Member
ColdToffee said:
For those hoping big power difference and DF analysis videos to fuel console wars, I fear next gen will be boring as hell.
It will be the one with XX exclusives vs the one with YY exclusives + VR (until the other one gets a VR add-on).
Click to expand...
I think both machines will be roughly equal silicon-wise and we can only expect minimal differences (~10-15%) due to clocks/cooling.

Services and games will definitely play a huge role as the new generation progresses.

TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if Sony/MS decided to collaborate even further, in terms of sharing R&D/tape-out costs.

If Lockhart was indeed canned, they'll have to shrink Jaguar to 7nm (since it's totally dead in AMD's 7nm roadmap, just like it was in 16nm as well) and keep selling XB1 in a Super Slim form factor. Sony will also keep selling the PS4.
 
Gamernyc78

Gamernyc78

Banned
quest said:
There was no mistake the EU is Sony land no matter what they do. They could crap in a box and it would sell in main land EU. MS might as well put resources in places they might sell consoles honestly.
Click to expand...

This was evident when ps3 came out hundreds more and a year or more later and from the release to the end of that generation ps3 outsold Xbox 360 almost every single month world wide, year after year. Sony's mindshare and hold is very strong. Fans are loyal to Sony eco system.
 
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ArabianPrynce

ArabianPrynce

Member
R600 said:
Navi XT (9.75TF) is 14% faster then Vega64 (12.56TF) so I think 8.3TF Navi would be closer to 12TF Vega then 10.5TF one in Stadia. There was a reason Google said with cloud they can deliver more perf then if the went with closed box and thermal limits. Thats why everything above 10TF (let alone 14+) is pipe dream.


I think OQA leak in May for manufactured dev kits ties pretty well with Gonzalo leak, as well as November release.
Click to expand...
I dont see the point in using the literal amd navi off the shelf specs as a way to base of your speculation, you can prove me wrong though. I think cerny and the guys can come up with a way to overcome those limits with whatever custom parts they are using. In fact cerny used future amd parts that werent even out for the ps4 pro.

N Negotiator brought up a good point in how the 7nm is immature and how nvidia made a good choice in waiting til 2020
 
vpance

vpance

Member
FranXico said:
If the PS5 was to launch around March or April, we would already be getting leaks from manufacturing sites by now.
Click to expand...

Production doesn't start until about 3-5 months before launch. My launch PS4 was made in Aug. If any factory line pics do leak I'd expect it later this year.
 
pawel86ck

pawel86ck

Banned
  1. PlayStation 5 Info
  2. I won't reveal who I am. I don't want to be fired and want to keep my job. Simply doing this hoping to end all the misinformation on the internet. I'm not going to post on any forum for obvious reasons. I'm going to cut to the chase.
  3. AMD 7nm Zen 2 Ryzen, 8 core 16 threads, @3.2GHz clock speed.
  4. AMD 7nm Navi Next Gen RDNA, 36 Dual-CU (72CU), 64 shaders, @1.55GHz clock speed. 14.2TF.
  5. RAM is still not final. Toying between 16GB-24GB GDDR6.
  6. Hardware Ray tracing.
  7. 2TB SSD.
  8. Full Backwards Compatibility.
  9. 8K Capable.
  10. Aiming for Holiday 2020 release.
Click to expand...
That's 700$ console at minimum 😀, but maybe sony will sell it with big loss. 2012 was a really bad time for sony, so I can understand why they wanted to play safe back then, but now maybe they want to deliver premium product once again like in PS2-3 times.

14TF Navi architecture should not only crush radeon 7 performance but maybe even match 2080ti. Can you guys imagine god of war 2 build for 14TF console?😀


igorslab-tdp.png

One RX5700 draw 122W, so dual GPU should draw 244W? It's still too much for a console, but maybe PS5 GPU will be even more power efficient.
 
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ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
vpance said:
Production doesn't start until about 3-5 months before launch. My launch PS4 was made in Aug. If any factory line pics do leak I'd expect it later this year.
Click to expand...
Mass production yes.

But I’m sure there are a lot of wafers produced already with engineer samples.

Sony / MS probably get a new wave of chips each few months.
 
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