Yeah right. You drew your own diagram when all I asked for was corrections.
And much of it was wrong, or hung up on terminology.
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Yeah right. You drew your own diagram when all I asked for was corrections.
And much of it was wrong, or hung up on terminology.
PropellerEar
Member
Why don't you consider this a collab, instead of competition? The end result(diagram) will be great
Loxus
Member
I saw someone post this on one of Rogame Tweets.
"XSX = 360mm2. So XSX is 360/308=~17% bigger. Has 56/40=40% more CUs. Hmmm "
"XSX=15B transistors, PS5 =15*308/360=12.8B, but should be ~=40/56*15=10.7B (has 2 less MC too). "
"So it has 2B more than it should. 32MB of 6T SRAM = 32Mbit*6*8bits=1.5B transistors."
To summaries:
-XBSX has 40% more CUs, but is only 17% bigger.
-PS5 has 12.8B transistors, but should have 10.7B based on 40% less CUs than XBSX.
-Probably has 32MB+ cache more than XBSX.
Speculation Time
What do you guys think?
"XSX = 360mm2. So XSX is 360/308=~17% bigger. Has 56/40=40% more CUs. Hmmm "
"XSX=15B transistors, PS5 =15*308/360=12.8B, but should be ~=40/56*15=10.7B (has 2 less MC too). "
"So it has 2B more than it should. 32MB of 6T SRAM = 32Mbit*6*8bits=1.5B transistors."
To summaries:
-XBSX has 40% more CUs, but is only 17% bigger.
-PS5 has 12.8B transistors, but should have 10.7B based on 40% less CUs than XBSX.
-Probably has 32MB+ cache more than XBSX.
Speculation Time
What do you guys think?
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FunkMiller
Gold Member
4+ weeks away to the slaughter of new innocents as they start up Demon souls for the first time thinking, wow this is going to be so Fun lol. I love killing monsters
The #DemonsSouls hashtag on Twitter for the whole of that first week is going to be fucking glorious. The amount of piss boiling is going to be stratospheric
I essentially just want to rush through the whole thing fast enough to be levelled for some lovely, lovely invasions...
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sircaw
Banned
.
yep, for major soul hardcore PVP veterans this is going to be a blood bath of biblical proportions.
and the worst or best thing about it is, 99% of new players have zero chance of beating a veteran.
The #DemonsSouls hashtag on Twitter for the whole of that first week is going to be fucking glorious. The amount of piss boiling is going to be stratospheric
yep, for major soul hardcore PVP veterans this is going to be a blood bath of biblical proportions.
and the worst or best thing about it is, 99% of new players have zero chance of beating a veteran.
Why don't you consider this a collab, instead of competition? The end result(diagram) will be great
If it's important and relevant, I would be glad to make a change by any input here, as I have already done.
Will add the SSD expansion port later when sitting in front of my computer, as on mobile now.
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sircaw
Banned
Same with me brother, when i do eventually get to play Demons souls, i hope in some ways it can beat Bloodborne in how it felt to me as a game, but i doubt it.
I liked the other souls games but nothing has come close to BB.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
You are forgetting that there is a cpu and io block in there. Ps5 is based on the 10.7 billion 5700 xt. The rest is the Zen 2 and io block.
geordiemp
Member
Ps5 is not going to have 128 MB of L2 like an 80 CU PC part, so max half at 64 MB, but its a console so 32 MB would be a good bet....
Thats RDNA1 and GPU, Rogame is doing a fair esstimate. Both XSX and ps5 have Audio silicon so...Ps5 has more IO but XSX has more server stuff in there so......its fair guess IMO
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SportsFan581
Member
They have multiple people, right? Is the Alex dude in charge? If it's lucrative, maybe one of the others is shilling on tape as we type.
geordiemp
Member
Rogame is estimating, based on size which is hard to do from pics and big estimates, there could be infinity cache, 32 MB would be a good estimate.
Dont know why your afraid, its a speculation thread and others have leaked this (RGT) and Rogame now saying similar....
Dont know how people can stare at pixels and measure up so accurately lol
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SportsFan581
Member
It's hard to work the math like that. 40% of the chips are probably near identical. If you want to scale transistors based on CUs, you'd have to know what percentage of the XSX transistors are for CUs and then compare that to the percentage of the Sony chip used for the same.
If this math held up, the XSS chip would only be a little more than a third the size of the XSX chip, where in reality it is more than half the size. This is because a lot of the components remain the same (the CPU and the parts of the GPU that are not scaled up for XSX).
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sircaw
Banned
i am sure they will probably be putting in a late video in the next couple of days, it will be interesting to see how many views it gets vs the assassins creed one.
sircaw
Banned
Sorry for the stupid question is that large for a cache size, 32 Mb, the only cache sizes i know are for pcs and they are tiny if i recall.
T
Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
I actually did that with the intention so it's my pleasure!
Aceofspades
Banned
I think XSX GPU portion occupy 47% of the SoC. I thought I read that somewhere after Hot chip presentation
Edit: the GPU portion of XSX is 47% of the 360mm APU, so ~170mm for GPU, that leaves 190mm for everything else. Using same structure PS5 GPU would be 40CUs or around 120mm, assuming everything else is similar to XSX we end up with 311mm SoC so pretty close to this estimate.
In conclusion, I don't expect increased caches on PS5 vs XSX
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TrippleA345
Member
Yeah 4 MB or 5 MB for XSX, so 32 MB would be massive, thats almost 800 %.
NXGamer has teased this as well. I have no idea, seems very plausible.
Has the series x not 76 mb cache for the gpu (and cpu)? I know 8mb L3 Cache for CPU but I can remember something with 76 mb.
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Alex Scott
Member
I believe DF should release a video on PS5 teardown when they have time to do so , so they can do it's justice. I don't think people care if DF didn't release a video on PS5 teardown on time. It was that DF member said PS5 teardown was unimpressive. This made some people mad and rightly so. If they get any backlash from this, it is deserving.
T
Three Jackdaws
Unconfirmed Member
Where did NX Gamer tease this? I know he has alluded to the PS5 having more features which have not yet been revealed (same as RGT)Yeah 4 MB or 5 MB for XSX, so 32 MB would be massive, thats almost 800 %.
JTCx
Member
LMAO with the XSX on its side you can see it just fucking looks off.
WelshBluebird
Member
Looks worse horizontally if you look at it from the other side (that has the stand) too. Someone posted a picture from that view and it just looks like someone had knocked it over.
If I’m a parent, I would be freakin nervous about having those rather large holes with a fan spinning at the top, and a glowing green colored plastic void just begging little Billy to drop a few items in...
Aceofspades
Banned
Andodalf
Banned
Wait, so they deserve backlash for not praising Sony? Literally just saying a video was dull is bad? Man, It really is give Sony a blowjob or bust for you guys, huh? There can be no middle ground.
Dave_at_Home
Member
Are we speculating that the PS5 has a version of AMD rumored "Infinity cache"?
Snowdonhoffen
Member
That's the rumor, or at least that it has a lot more cache than average machines.
Darklor01
Might need to stop sniffing glue
I think I’ve stopped caring what’s in the box and just want the box to play games I love and play them well.
I feel that way for both boxes.
sircaw
Banned
TLZ
Banned
A whole video about how the XSX can run a 900p game with uncapped fps at max 60fps. Waaaow. So interesting.......Typical DF BS, now one of the most infamous games in history, AC Unity, running at 60fps is somehow interesting. Seems too dry and they're trying to make shit smell good. Glad more people are getting it and calling them out.
No freebies from Sony.
EDIT: Wow, all that praise about AC Unity and it was 900p@60fps!
Darklor01
Might need to stop sniffing glue
Not long to go m8, then you are finally done with this place.... and me Cry
Ill never be done with this place. Just this thread.
sircaw
Banned
Your meant to say you will never be done with ME FIRST, NOT THIS THREAD OR THIS PLACE FFS.
Your meant to say me me me hehe
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Darklor01
Might need to stop sniffing glue
Your meant to say you will never be done with ME FIRST, NOT THIS THREAD OR THIS PLACE FFS.
Your meant to say me me me hehe
Always!
*Titanic door scene .gif*
MasterCornholio
Member
I'm curious as to how much dosce the I/0 complex takes up. It has alot of stuff in it like the co processors and the SRAM.
geordiemp
Member
WE dont know, but the SSD controller and RAM for it si not on the APU, so whatever the IO is bigger than the XSX that is used to compare the die sizes
jonnyp
Member
He doesn't seem to account for the IO complex and cache scrubbers that will occupy additional die space.
geordiemp
Member
Total, was rumoured to be 76, L2 was given as 5MB
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Gamerguy84
Member
Eh whatever. DF was working on something else at the time. That's what was going on. They were never given a console to teardown. Sony does their own teardown.
As for DF yes they are bias. I don't consider this a thing though. Alex is Alex.
As for DF yes they are bias. I don't consider this a thing though. Alex is Alex.
Loxus
Member
Maybe...
Bo_Hazem
Banned
BattleScar
Member
The relative size difference is because stuff like the GDDR6 memory PHYs are quite large. The G6 PHYs in say for example Navi 10 (5700/XT) take up almost 100mm2 of the 250mm2 total die area. The actual CU's are quite small:
Oberon has 20 DCU's - 7*20mm2 = 140 mm2
Arden has 28 DCU's - 7*28 = 196 mm2.
There's the 40% difference.
Let us not forget the other aspects of a GPU outside of the compute units. There is the render backends, i.e the ROPs. The ROPs we know are configured based on the number of Shader Engines (each contain 2 Shader Arrays) there are. Both Arden and Oberon have 2 Shader Engines (4 Shader Arrays), so both contain 64 ROPs. These will be pretty much exactly the same size for both consoles. Then there is the central GPU command processor, which will likely be pretty much exactly the same for both consoles. Given the slightly different memory config, Arden likely has 25% more L2 cache than Oberon 5 MB vs 4MB. This is an assumption based on the fact that Navi 10 has 4MB L2 cache and Microsoft has told us Arden has 5MB. The L1 Caches are likely to be pretty much the same for Arden and Oberon and thus take up the same amount of space.
Of course both APU's also contain 8 Renoir Zen 2 cores and their associated caches. As both are likely to be virtually identical, they're both the same size, at around 30-40mm2. I must reiterate, this will take up the same die area for both chips.
Then there are the massive GDDR6 PHYs, of which Oberon has 8*32-bit PHYs and Arden has 10*32-bit Phys, and their associated memory controllers. 10 PHYS will only be 25% larger than 8 PHYs. Memory controllers will be marginally larger for Arden vs Oberon.
Then there will be other miscellaneous stuff on each die - the display engine, encoders etc. Each of Oberon and Arden may also contain additional fixed function/custom units which will take up an unspecified amount of die area.
Here's a die diagram of Arden graciously provided by Microsoft:
Each black box I've drawn here is a DCU (someone smarter than I can probably make much more accurate annotations). You have 28 boxes, which amounts to 56CU.
We know Oberon (probably) has 40CUs. We know for certainty that the main differences between Arden and Oberon are the number of CU's and the number of Memory PHYs. So in essence, you just need to remove what I've highlighted in red, and boom, you have an approximation of the PS5's APU.
I shouldn't need to say it, but this is a gross oversimplification. In reality there will be additional differences, as I've briefly touched upon above. This is just intended to be a visual aid.
This image should be a good enough representation of what a 56CU vs 40CU actually looks like on a die. The differences is ultimately quite small, because there is a hell of a lot of uncore stuff that is present on the die.
40% more shaders does not at all imply 40% larger. There areas of the APU that will be pretty similar between each console.
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geordiemp
Member
More like 8 or 12 MB L2 cache max after looking abit more, but could be nothing, so many unknowns.
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Insane Metal
Member
So that's why John from DF is saying people will get impressed by PS5 performance. SECRET. MOTHAFUCKING. SAUCE.
Like many of you, I too, am possessed by the Sony boogaloo - but I am not so blinded as to not see that what Alex said makes perfect sense. Right now DF has an XBsX and I would honestly be disappointed in them not focusing 100% on the next gen machine they actually have in their hands. What is it, that you would like them to tell you, exactly?
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geordiemp
Member
The relative size difference is because stuff like the GDDR6 memory PHYs are quite large. The G6 PHYs in say for example Navi 10 (5700/XT) take up almost 100mm2 of the 250mm2 total die area. The actual CU's are quite small:
Doing some napkin math on the die shot of Navi 14 gets me about 7mm2 for a DCU, which are 2 CU's conjoined together into a workgroup. Feel free to correct me on those numbers, its just an estimate. Navi 14 is 158mm2 for reference. We know that the RT on RDNA2 has a negligible area cost, so the CU's/DCUs won't be much bigger than Navi 10/14's.
Oberon has 20 DCU's - 7*20mm2 = 140 mm2
Arden has 28 DCU's - 7*28 = 196 mm2.
There's the 40% difference.
Let us not forget the other aspects of a GPU outside of the compute units. There is the render backends, i.e the ROPs. The ROPs we know are configured based on the number of Shader Engines (each contain 2 Shader Arrays) there are. Both Arden and Oberon have 2 Shader Engines (4 Shader Arrays), so both contain 64 ROPs. These will be pretty much exactly the same size for both consoles. Then there is the central GPU command processor, which will likely be pretty much exactly the same for both consoles. Given the slightly different memory config, Arden likely has 25% more L2 cache than Oberon 5 MB vs 4MB. This is an assumption based on the fact that Navi 10 has 4MB L2 cache and Microsoft has told us Arden has 5MB. The L1 Caches are likely to be pretty much the same for Arden and Oberon and thus take up the same amount of space.
Of course both APU's also contain 8 Renoir Zen 2 cores and their associated caches. As both are likely to be virtually identical, they're both the same size, at around 30-40mm2. I must reiterate, this will take up the same die area for both chips.
Then there are the massive GDDR6 PHYs, of which Oberon has 8*32-bit PHYs and Arden has 10*32-bit Phys, and their associated memory controllers. 10 PHYS will only be 25% larger than 8 PHYs. Memory controllers will be marginally larger for Arden vs Oberon.
Then there will be other miscellaneous stuff on each die - the display engine, encoders etc. Each of Oberon and Arden may also contain additional fixed function/custom units which will take up an unspecified amount of die area.
Here's a die diagram of Arden graciously provided by Microsoft:
Each black box I've drawn here is a DCU (someone smarter than I can probably make much more accurate annotations). You have 28 boxes, which amounts to 56CU.
We know Oberon (probably) has 40CUs. We know for certainty that the main differences between Arden and Oberon are the number of CU's and the number of Memory PHYs. So in essence, you just need to remove what I've highlighted in red, and boom, you have an approximation of the PS5's APU.
I shouldn't need to say it, but this is a gross oversimplification. In reality there will be additional differences, as I've briefly touched upon above. This is just intended to be a visual aid.
This image should be a good enough representation of what a 56CU vs 40CU actually looks like on a die. The differences is ultimately quite small, because there is a hell of a lot of uncore stuff that is present on the die.
40% more shaders does not at all imply 40% larger. There areas of the APU that will be pretty similar between each console.
Thanks for drawing it out - we could just look at the 4 MB L3 cache on CPU cluster, there is no way there is an additional 8 of them, 32 MB would be too much.
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