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Setsuna Mudou
Member
First time i used the report button here, right before i go to sleep. Wake up and the idiot is banned... I realize there where probably 29 other reports, but it gives me comfort thinking I'm 1 for 1 
Anyway, looking forward to some real analysis now that we have this chip under a microscope
Anyway, looking forward to some real analysis now that we have this chip under a microscope
Killer Sakoman
Member
My understanding is that investment doesn't work this way. There could be a deal behind it. I don't know.
What I am sure about is that Sony is seriously adopting and investing in Unreal Engine. We will see more 1st party games working on UE.
FranXico
Member
Whoever hacked into Riky's account, please change his password. I prefer these sensible posts over his non-stop obsessive VRR nonsense.
Killer Sakoman
Member
Yes, you do not need native 4k at this stage. A game needs geometry, textures, and physically accurate shaders.
Riky
$MSFT
It's best to accept the truth even if it makes you uncomfortable, in every circumstance. When PS5 owners finally get VRR they will be very grateful trust me.
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Killer Sakoman
Member
A fixed function chip doesn't necessarily compare to CPU size.Very interesting. Some sort of double small GPUs and I think there is some type of Direct connection from Zen to IO complex/SSD?
IO Complex is extremely huge like almost 8 core CPU (!). So decompression speed @9-core Zen speed is probably true
FranXico
Member
Those who can afford a TV that supports it properly will, I am aware. It's a great technology, but not a panacea. And I think Sony's handling of the firmware leaves much to be desired, btw. That's the kind of thing that should have been sorted in the first post-launch update.
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FranXico
Member
Also, wasn't there a rumor that it had an FPGA?
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Also a point of note is that you can get the UE5 source and keep on customising it and even contribute code back (like some MS studios already did in the past).
I see a mix of smaller studios like Bend making use of UE5 with some of their own customisations like they did for UE4 (Days Gone), some studios like Guerrilla and ND going with their custom engine (but looking very very closely at Nanite), and some others maybe developing libraries and offering third parties tech support with UE5 related technologies for the PS5 version of their titles.
Creating derivative UE5 technologies, including some of the best bits unbundled from UE5, could be part of the deal they reached: imagine UE5 assets pipeline (file I/O, virtualised textures and geometry) and Nanite and/or Lumen (or derived tech) but usable without having to pick up a full UE5 license only for timed or full PS5 exclusives and Sony only giving out PS5 optimised code anyways.
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kyliethicc
Member
I doubt many more Sony studios will use UE5, other than Bend & PixelOpus. PlayStation studios have their own proprietary engines and that is quite advantageous. The results speak for themselves.
Most AAA studios use in-house engines. Pretty sure the AAA publisher that uses Unreal Engine the most is Xbox. But who knows maybe UE5 will be fucking amazing and get used more & more.
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FranXico
Member
The SSD controller itself will not have anything unique about it. It's the other portions of the APU dedicated to IO that are interesting.
DJ12
Member
Riky gets it, if the PS5 looks bad, Series X looks even worse when the comparisons drop.you make sense for once?
LiquidRex
Member
Yes the GE takes up a considerable amount of Die Space for it to be overlooked, GE can be left to its own device's but to take full advantage of it you need to invest time to code for it. Cerny has always maintained the philosophy "Easy to Learn, hard to Master."
Additional: Appologies Elog I'm Quoting you from a different Thread in error.
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MasterCornholio
Member
So apparently
Riky
doesn't believe the PS5 has custom hardware for that I/O. 
Calm down nobody is saying the PS5 is more powerful than the XSX due to the die shot. What people are saying is that a lot of space on the die is taken up by custom hardware. Like the I/O complex for example. There's nothing funny about that.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Possibly, but they may just use some UE5 components... if Nanite does a great job alto virtualise geometry (as well as texturing) they may want to use it in more of their own game engines.
Also, in order to say “decouple” components such as Nanite and distribute them with a first party SDK to full exclusive/time exclusives game developers they may require a special license to redistribute it as those devs may not have or want to license full UE5.
Zoro7
Banned
Why do people even give that obvious troll the time of day?So apparently
Calm down nobody is saying the PS5 is more powerful than the XSX due to the die shot. What people are saying is that a lot of space on the die is taken up by custom hardware. Like the I/O complex for example. There's nothing funny about that.
TheRedRiders
Member
I was just going to say the same thing.
MasterCornholio
Member
I don't in pretty much done trying to convince him that the PS5 has custom I/O hardware that's taking up space on the die. If he doesn't want to believe Cerny or the die shot then there's no hope for heshe.
You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drown in it.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
You guys always say this... but as far as I can tell, that's just a paraphrasing from an interview that no longer exists on the internet.
He said that PS4 had hardware that wouldn't be used for a few years; that's it.. he never said it was a philosophy of his, and I don't think he ever actually said those words lol
Nor did he say it about PS5.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Balancing revolution and evolution (and the plus and minuses of minimising what he described as Time to Triangle):
Trying not to design something that did not have anything new to offer and would be maxed out at launch vs HW with a super steep learning curve that would perform either like shit unoptimised or really well if you fully optimised it with little in between.
Same philosophy that he covered in his Road to PS4 talk and that he mentioned in his interview with Gamasutra in PS4 before I believe.
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PSX
Member
ethomaz
Banned
Are you sure about that?
PS4
"The hardware is an enabler. We are very intentionally trying to make the hardware easy to learn and difficult to master."
PS5
"Cerny shared little, except to say that PS5 design is easy for PlayStation 4 developers to get to grips with, but digging deeper into the new system's capabilities, there are many aspects of the PS5 design that PCs will be hard-pressed to match"
Both come from Cerny mouth.
Riky
$MSFT
I didn't say that at all, stop lying and making things up.So apparently
Calm down nobody is saying the PS5 is more powerful than the XSX due to the die shot. What people are saying is that a lot of space on the die is taken up by custom hardware. Like the I/O complex for example. There's nothing funny about that.
I was laughing at using that total idiot as a source, he's claimed all sort of stupid things including XSX didn't have Ray Tracing because it didn't say so on the box..... He's a deluded fanboy not credible at all.
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Dude... the second sentence is not a Cerny quote lol Come on dude, we've been over this.. you are "quoting" a sentence written by Richard from DF.
Nor does it even say "hard to master" lol
But thanks for finding an actual quote of Cerny for PS4, all I could find was links to a dead article, and then forums quoting the article where he didn't use the words.
He never said it about PS5.. he said it about PS4..
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ethomaz
Banned
C'mon you still spinning.
It is a quote of what Cerny said... Cerny told that to Richard... "Cerny shared little, except to SAY" -> "SAY" is about Cerny.
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Yes he said the PS5 has hardware PCs will have trouble keeping up with...
He never said it would be difficult to master.
You said "Both come from Cerny mouth."... the sentence from DF.. is not from Cerny, it's from Richard.. that's not spinning.. and nor is it spinning to point out that nothing in that sentence says it will be hard to master lol
Superayate
Member
Riky
$MSFT
Quote where I said what you're claiming or stop lying, either will do.
MasterCornholio
Member
How can I be lying when you only respond with emojis? Instead of making your point with text you use emojis instead. How am I supposed to make an interpretation from that without any text they accompanies it?
You want this to stop?
Make a good argument instead of making faces.
As for that twitter user you're right about his credibility. But your wrong about him saying that alot of space is taken up by the I/O hardware. Mark already explained in his presentation that there's a lot of I/O hardware in the APU.
Unless your saying that Cerny is wrong when we have the actual die shot.
MasterCornholio
Member
That's what you get for making funny faces. You leave your emojis up to interpretation. I already explained this to you.
Riky
$MSFT
How can I be lying when you only respond with emojis? Instead of making your point with text you use emojis instead. How am I supposed to make an interpretation from that without any text they accompanies it?
You want this to stop?
Make a good argument instead of making faces.
As for that twitter user you're right about his credibility. But your wrong about him saying that alot of space is taken up by the I/O hardware. Mark already explained in his presentation that there's a lot of I/O hardware in the APU.
Unless your saying that Cerny is wrong when we have the actual die shot.
I haven't mentioned space for anything, quote me or stop lying.
MasterCornholio
Member
Well stop using emojis if you want people to interpret you correctly. When you put down actual text I can read your thoughts.
With emojis it's hard to read you.
I'm definitely not lying about you using emojis everywhere and then complaining when people don't interpret them correctly.
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
That's close I guess... he mentions Ray Tracing and Primitive Shaders.. those are certainly new for some developers, but they aren't some customization only available on PS5. They are RDNA1 + RDNA 2 features.
Developers will be using new things this generation; for sure.. last gen was GCN, ,if you haven't been developing on PC.. these things are new.. my point is, most of this forum thinks that's only for PS5 for some reason, when Sony never said anything about customizations that are difficult to master.
I fail to see how "new console offers new features devs will have to get used to" is some philosophy lol.. they focus on easy of use.. that's what they did on PS4 as well as PS5.
edit: PS5 does have Tempest which is bespoke... but games don't seem to be having much trouble implementing that early in the gen.
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Riky
$MSFT
You could have asked me on here or by DM but instead you made up something I didn't actually say so the trolls could come out and attack me.
I never said what you claimed.
MasterCornholio
Member
Ok I've derailed the thread enough now I'm going to try and bring it on track giving my opinion on this tweet.
Yes the credibility of the user is extremely questionable but let's look at what he says. And I'll try to isolate the obvious fanboy stuff from it.
Well he's correct that the PS5 has some custom hardware in it that's not in the XSX. Looking at road to PS5 those I/O co processors and cache scrubbers are examples of dedicated hardware that's not in the XSX. But it's also true that the XSX has its own dedicated hardware that the PS5 doesn't have. If I remember correctly SFS uses some kind of hardware to execute which the PS5 doesn't have.
Now I have no idea how he managed to do a size comparison with each APU and measure the amount of space that the custom hardware takes up. It could be true that the PS5 has more space dedicated to that custom silicon but the reverse could also be true for the XSX.
When it comes to looking at the PS5s die it looks like that custom hardware takes up a lot of space on it. I don't know how much space in terms of MM but it certainly is a sizeable amount.
With this said it's a bit early to tell if all this dedicated space is worth it. Maybe it was better to go with a larger GPU instead? So far I haven't been disappointed with games on the PS5 except for maybe Hitman 3. But that doesn't mean things can't get worse later on. But it's also possible that they can get better. Hopefully we see Improvements for both systems going forward.
MasterCornholio
Member
Fair enough. I'll ask you next time for your interpretation when you emoji bomb something.
Loxus
Member
One thing far sure, this diagram does not accurately represent the PS5 layout.How can I be lying when you only respond with emojis? Instead of making your point with text you use emojis instead. How am I supposed to make an interpretation from that without any text they accompanies it?
You want this to stop?
Make a good argument instead of making faces.
As for that twitter user you're right about his credibility. But your wrong about him saying that alot of space is taken up by the I/O hardware. Mark already explained in his presentation that there's a lot of I/O hardware in the APU.
Unless your saying that Cerny is wrong when we have the actual die shot.
The I/O Complex maybe in the GPU for all we know.
Or ever the entire bottom of die, including the Video Encode/Decode and PCIe4 Lanes.
Reason being, it has a lot to do with SSD decompression.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Same as their enhancements to the Geometry Engine or even changing the way they break down and load assets which will require lots of work... properly taking advantage of all the HW they provide will be the difference between early titles and later ones.
I do not think the talk was just about talking unique to PS5 vs unique to the PS eco system. Developers with dev kits will surely know more here, but it is likely that there is more beneath the surface (on both XSX and PS5, see the kind of low level access to the BVH you can have on console vs the higher level DXR API on PC, it will take a long while to master that).
I suspect that between SDK improvements and developers programming some components like the GE or TE directly (not in automated mode) and knowing the performance gotchas of the fixed I/O HW (Assuming they do not get low level access to the I/O Co-Processors and Coherency Engines in the I/O unit, etc...). Are there ways where cache scrubbers under perform?
MasterCornholio
Member
One thing far sure, this diagram does not accurately represent the PS5 layout.
The I/O Complex maybe in the GPU for all we know.
Or ever the entire bottom of die, including the Video Encode/Decode and PCIe4 Lanes.
Reason being, it has a lot to do with SSD decompression.
In this diagram from road to PS5 it's shown as being right above the memory controller. So what you said definitely makes sense.
It's really big if true.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
What changes to how assets are broken down exist? (honestly curious)
Geometry engine is something he mentions as well as being something you could ignore or program for.
Anyways, either way, thanks for pointing out that Cerny did say similar things about PS5. But it's still really more about offering new features, and making sure devs dont HAVE to use them.. then some philosophy of making sure something is "hard to master." That is some weird shit coming from the PS3 days, that they continued to claim about PS4... lol
My points being:
- That's not a good philosophy to have nor has Cerny ever really said it's some philosophy he believes in
- There are new features on both consoles, for whatever reason the Sony fanboys around here love to laugh at the idea of things not yet being used on Xbox, but PS5 has features yet to be used
Granted, PS5 being more customizable might make things take longer to come to fruition.. I fail to see how that's some great thing though TBH. As a PS5 owner.. great, some late in gen games might see improvements.. particularly from Sony. but I'll be using my PS5.. this entire generation, not just late in gen lol
Like if we start seeing Mesh Shader usage on Xbox before devs really get a grip on GE... why is that a good thing again?
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
IIRC, Cerny made some big changes to the ACEs. Xbox and other GCN GPUs had just 2 ACEs while the PS4 had 8 ACEs allowing devs far more control over asynchronous compute. Whether or not developers used it is unclear but seeing as how good PS exclusives looked compared to most third party games, it's safe to say there was some secret sauce in there somewhere.
Regardless, the PS5 is clearly far more customized than the PS4 ever was. I think most devs wont bother exploring all its fancy I/O and super fast ssd speeds. And not just because they are lazy, but because they cant make two different versions of a multiplatform game.
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