• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

Status
Not open for further replies.
It is actually... the games I played all with less than 2 seconds loadtimes is indeed game changer.

What people should question is why multiplatform devs are not using it because seems like easy to make the loading go away.
It's not easy. They have to:

- Compress everything using Kraken compression (so the whole data)
- Completely change the way streaming new data is done. Usually it's mainly managed by the CPU (PC, Xbox series X and PS4), not on PS5.
 

Interfectum

Member
It's not easy. They have to:

- Compress everything using Kraken compression (so the whole data)
- Completely change the way streaming new data is done. Usually it's mainly managed by the CPU (PC, Xbox series X and PS4), not on PS5.
I doubt they completely changed FF7R though... I'm sure the PS5 SDK does some of that heavy lifting automatically.
 
Last edited:

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole

I'm pretty sure they gave lots of smaller amounts to tons of indies.

The service would have been even more dead in the water without the big hitter games though.

Games like Stardew Valley can run inside a web browser... why do they even need streaming?

It's a big catch 22.. nobody is actually paying to stream games by and large right now.. so to attract users you have to spend big for big ticket games... spending little amounts on indie games, makes little technical sense.. because those games can run on toasters, that's partly why they sell so much. And not like indie games are made overnight with $1 million.. they can take years...

Streaming is doomed to fail in the near term due to too high of expectations. These tech giants are pushing a product that had no real demand.
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

Banned
It's not easy. They have to:

- Compress everything using Kraken compression (so the whole data)
- Completely change the way streaming new data is done. Usually it's mainly managed by the CPU (PC, Xbox series X and PS4), not on PS5.
It is Square Enix we are talking about... they will never do something that requires that hard work for a port.
 

SSfox

Member
Oh i though FF7RR is PS5 and PC, but it's actually PS5 only.

Does that mean that Jimbo and Hermen are smarter than we though? i would assume Sony did something to not let this game go on PC, so in that sens i can't see Sony putting their brand new PS5 games on PC. So maybe the plan is to port only old PS4 games, and then they port PS5 games on PC many years later with PS6 launch ect.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
I disagree. Still looks great to me is not a "massive downgrade" lol thats quite hyperbolic.

Its a small indie game made by a new studio. Its like their first game. Its not gonna be some masterpiece like Knack 2, but it looks cool.

That's the side effect of having a healthy vision, I guess. It's pretty obvious that the fur got massively downgraded and they look dull on the new ones (the little black things), also lots of artifacts of image reconstruction here and there. Also not sure if you're shitting on Knack 2 or not, but I genuinely liked both 1 and 2 a lot. It's a really unique game.





This makes me happy, they sound like Microsoft: Soul-less, tasteless. GamePass next.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
I like what MS does to new Halo but can anyone explain why this is here? is this supposed to be birds?

jpNbB8K.jpeg



You can check the official link here for yourself


"Campaign (Work in progress - PC)" sums it up, yet it looks last gen, an upgrade from PS360 era.
 

SSfox

Member

I was actually surprise that Rockstar bothered porting RDR2 on Stadia, i mean they didn't even bother put GTAV on Switch , and bothered put RDR2 on a Stadia that isn't close to be successful as Switch. But Now with those infos it all make sens.
 
Last edited:

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Huh?!?

If you bought the original game you get the upgrade free. if you get the game free on PS+ the upgrade is paid for.

There's no confusion or small print. It's pretty simple and fair.

Why would you expect to get the free upgrade if you never paid for the base game? Wouldn't that be unfair to the people who did?

You're blowing shit way out of proportion.



Not sure what you're seeing Bo. The new trailer gameplay sections looked just as good as the gameplay shown in the original reveal.

The game looks stunning:

620971-Kena-Bridge-of-Spirits.jpg

Kena-Bridge-of-Spirits-03-scaled.jpg

fallenstatue-1614288600245.jpg

It's mostly in the models of those little things, they aren't as furry as they used to be, also Kena has reconstruction artifacts around here vs previous trailer. It's like the difference between PS4 and PS4 Pro, if that makes sense.
 
I doubt they completely changed FF7R though... I'm sure the PS5 SDK does some of that heavy lifting automatically.
I doubt it. Otherwise we would see more multiplat doing it. AFAIK FF7R will be the second multiplat doing it after Nioh 2. But even those games are only multiplats with PC so on console they don't have to worry with the Xbox way of doing it (zlib compression + CPU management).
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
"Campaign (Work in progress - PC)" sums it up, yet it looks last gen, an upgrade from PS360 era.
Last pic looks nice, but those other ones....MEH. I like to comment on every Halo: Infinite picture it seems, not sure why. Also where is my boy Craig :messenger_pensive:
 

Defrop

Banned
I like what MS does to new Halo but can anyone explain why this is here? is this supposed to be birds?

jpNbB8K.jpeg



You can check the official link here for yourself

JG8CTcw.jpg
 

Thirty7ven

Banned
It is actually... the games I played all with less than 2 seconds loadtimes is indeed game changer.

What people should question is why multiplatform devs are not using it because seems like easy to make the loading go away.

It’s just these early days. By mid to late 21 it will be standard. Otherwise the developer is eat shit for breakfast material and probably makes trash nobody wants either way.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I was actually surprise that Rockstar bothered porting RDR2 on Stadia, i mean they didn't even bother put GTAV on Switch , and bothered put RDR2 on a Stadia that isn't close to be successful as Switch. But Now with those infos it all make sens.

Well RDR2 already was being built with a Vulkan renderer; so it likely was a quick port (Stadia only supports the Vulcan API). And money talks lol

Ubisoft has also already been doing Vulkan in their pipelines since well before Stadia launched.
 
Last edited:

Reindeer

Member
That's the side effect of having a healthy vision, I guess. It's pretty obvious that the fur got massively downgraded and they look dull on the new ones (the little black things), also lots of artifacts of image reconstruction here and there. Also not sure if you're shitting on Knack 2 or not, but I genuinely liked both 1 and 2 a lot. It's a really unique game.





This makes me happy, they sound like Microsoft: Soul-less, tasteless. GamePass next.
...And like Sony sounds now

PC PC PC.......
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Sinthor

Gold Member
You also had not only Barlog's (starting to get annoying) teasing, as well as Roger Clark's (who is rumored to voice Thor) teasing around the same time dropping tweets about the SoP as well. Maybe things changed, or maybe they are starting to try to slowly get people rumbling (which they don't need to do with the PS brand, let's be honest here), but I can't blame people with all of those perceived flags.

With that said, Sony has been running on the same script for the past few years now. They never unload surprise bangers in SoP so far, nor do they allow future games to overshadow ones that are coming right around the corner. Once those release, within weeks they work on the next. Returnal, then the they may show another HFW tease, then deeper dive into R&C, then maybe a GoW tease again (possibly in a E3 like showcase), then deeper into HFW before release, and so on and so on.

We should be used to this by now... but we aren't for some reason.
lol. Good point. I forgot about Corey Barlog. Honestly, I think he's just amusing himself by stirring the internet up with his fake 'hints' here and there. I think he's sitting at home, laughing his ASS OFF! :)

But yes, lots of hints and reasons to think we'd see something SOME TIME at least. I agree though, SOP is a LONG shot for something like that. I think GoW in particular is big enough, it will be it's own announcement or paired with other big announcements. But we'll see. We should be seeing something about it.......sometime SOOONY. ;)
 


:messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: Google got scammed hard by the video-game publishers.

They probably thought, "Google approached us with this thing that we know is almost certainly gonna be a disaster. So lets rake them across the coals on the price of a port, since they're already in the business of pissing cash down the toilet."

I doubt they completely changed FF7R though... I'm sure the PS5 SDK does some of that heavy lifting automatically.

Nope. The SSD and I/O benefits of the PS5 have to be targeted by devs manually. In order to really flex the PS5's SSD and IO muscles, devs need to redesign a lot of the existing game engine's data streaming systems from the ground up to get the benefits. Nothing is automatic.

Many devs as well as Sony have been saying this since we first heard about the PS5 SSD.

Streaming is doomed to fail in the near term due to too high of expectations. These tech giants are pushing a product that had no real demand.

This is what I've been saying since... well... forever.

Game Streaming is a solution looking for a problem to solve.... and it hasn't found it yet.

I was actually surprise that Rockstar bothered porting RDR2 on Stadia, i mean they didn't even bother put GTAV on Switch , and bothered put RDR2 on a Stadia that isn't close to be successful as Switch. But Now with those infos it all make sens.

Looool, RDR2 wouldn't run on a Switch. The Euphoria Physics based animation system alone would likely oversaturate the Switch CPU, if it would run at all.

It's mostly in the models of those little things, they aren't as furry as they used to be, also Kena has reconstruction artifacts around here vs previous trailer. It's like the difference between PS4 and PS4 Pro, if that makes sense.

I'm sorry, Bo dude. I'm struggling to see it. I looked at the original reveal trailer and to me it's mostly the exact same footage in both trailers. Are you sure the issue isn't something like YouTube compression artefacts when watching this new one at a lower bitrate or something?
 

Loxus

Member

Can someone help me understand this article.
How can the M.2 drive cause the console to overheat?
I would understand the M.2 drive overheating but not the console.
Plus the M.2 drive has adequate cooling as it's position right next to the fan.

PlayStation 5 Teardown
lHfTaEC.jpg


Hasn't Bloomberg been put on the spot already by Sony when talking about PS5 chip yield.
"the people said" issa first for me, what ever happened to "my sources said"

Twitter and YouTube going to be full with PS5 overheating tweets and vids again.
 
Last edited:

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
:messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: Google got scammed hard by the video-game publishers.

They probably thought, "Google approached us with this thing that we know is almost certainly gonna be a disaster. So lets rake them across the coals on the price of a port, since they're already in the business of pissing cash down the toilet."
The thing is that Google had a bunch of veteran video game execs like Phil Harrison and Jade Raymond. I dont know why they didnt step in and say that these companies were scamming Google. Surely they know most games (RDR2 being an exception) cost only tens of millions max. Ports are probably a few million max.

I think they refused Google initially because they knew that it was a dead platform that wasn't worth porting their games to leaving google no choice but to pay up.
 

skit_data

Member
Can someone help me understand this article.
How can the M.2 drive cause the console to overheat?
I would understand the M.2 drive overheating but not the console.
Plus the M.2 drive has adequate cooling as it's position right next to the fan.

PlayStation 5 Teardown
lHfTaEC.jpg


Hasn't Bloomberg been put on the spot already by Sony when talking about PS5 chip yield.
"the people said" issa first for me, what ever happened to "my sources said"

Twitter and YouTube going to be full with PS5 overheating tweets and vids again.
Its poorly worded in many aspects. The ”overheating” is probably alluding to the expansion SSD operating at a temperature that may degrade it faster than usual.

Edit: I also found ”the people”-wording pretty wierd but also funny. Sounds like Marxist populism.
 
Last edited:

SSfox

Member
Looool, RDR2 wouldn't run on a Switch. The Euphoria Physics based animation system alone would likely oversaturate the Switch CPU, if it would run at all.
Bruh read well what i said:

"I was actually surprise that Rockstar bothered porting RDR2 on Stadia, i mean they didn't even bother put GTAV on Switch , and bothered put RDR2 on a Stadia that isn't close to be successful as Switch. But Now with those infos it all make sens."

Of course there is no way Switch can handle RDR2. But i was referring about GTAV for Switch.

Well RDR2 already was being built with a Vulkan renderer; so it likely was a quick port (Stadia only supports the Vulcan API). And money talks lol

Ubisoft has also already been doing Vulkan in their pipelines since well before Stadia launched.

You think porting RDR2 on stadia would be easier than porting GTAV on Switch? Without counting that Switch is successful (i personally not a big fan of Switch but it is what it is)
 
Last edited:

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
You think porting RDR2 on stadia would be easier than porting GTAV on Switch? Without counting that Switch is successful (i personally not a big fan of Switch but it is what it is)

Way easier. Vulkan based games have reportedly taken weeks to port, with 1-2 devs.

edit: Oh, sorry SSfox SSfox , you said GTA V... yeah GTA V being a 360 game probably would be easy to port to Switch lol
 
Last edited:

SSfox

Member
:messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: Google got scammed hard by the video-game publishers.

They probably thought, "Google approached us with this thing that we know is almost certainly gonna be a disaster. So lets rake them across the coals on the price of a port, since they're already in the business of pissing cash down the toilet."


Yes, thank you Google for financing GTA6
1466366188-risitas6.png
, Rockstar won't even need to put their own money they made from RDR2 to create GTA6
1466366197-risitas10.png
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Can someone help me understand this article.
How can the M.2 drive cause the console to overheat?
I would understand the M.2 drive overheating but not the console.
Plus the M.2 drive has adequate cooling as it's position right next to the fan.

PlayStation 5 Teardown
lHfTaEC.jpg


Hasn't Bloomberg been put on the spot already by Sony when talking about PS5 chip yield.
"the people said" issa first for me, what ever happened to "my sources said"

Twitter and YouTube going to be full with PS5 overheating tweets and vids again.
Because it's FUD. Proven to be many times over by PC M2 slot locations and even tighter with no ventilation gaming laptops that are as thin as Macbook's now. It's locked because there are no drives certified at the moment.
 
Last edited:

Sinthor

Gold Member
The thing is that Google had a bunch of veteran video game execs like Phil Harrison and Jade Raymond. I dont know why they didnt step in and say that these companies were scamming Google. Surely they know most games (RDR2 being an exception) cost only tens of millions max. Ports are probably a few million max.

I think they refused Google initially because they knew that it was a dead platform that wasn't worth porting their games to leaving google no choice but to pay up.
Yes, it looks like Google missed with the Stadia but I don't think ridiculing them about paying for these ports is probably warranted. The number one issue for new consoles and systems is getting the big games onto them. Developers don't want to take the time and money to port to another hardware platform that doesn't have millions of users waiting to buy their games yet. So I guarantee that Google (who aren't complete idiots, after all) had people that had modeled the opportunity cost of getting these games on the platform early while they developed more in house and expanded the user base. Why pay so much more? Because developers have finite resources. It isn't simply a matter of easily porting your game to any platform. There's lots of time and money involved and if you haven't staffed and planned for an effort to support yet another hardware platform, that will probably double the money it costs you as a developer. So Google was simply sweetening the pot to ENSURE that its platform got these big games like RDR2. So it may seem like a silly amount of money, to us, for Google to have spent, but I'm sure they had it modeled out. Just wasn't enough to kick start their sales and without consistently expanding their user base and getting a lot of sales, they can't justify continuing to spend that kind of money. Hence it looks like they may be shutting Stadia down.

I still can't say I'm surprised as I don't think streaming gaming is viable and I don't believe it will be for many years yet. Same reason Microsoft hasn't gone all in on Cloud. It's still 'in development.' Until just about EVERYONE has super fast, reliable internet connections, it's not going to be feasible at least on a very wide scale. Still, it is a bit bizarre to see Google giving up so relatively quickly. Then again, maybe there have been changes in leadership to people who didn't believe in the vision they were trying to follow. All kinds of factors could explain this.
 

Doncabesa

Member
Hey Doncabesa Doncabesa , why don't you refute what I said instead your corny ass laugh reacts to everything "for the braaaannnnd!"
They have stated they need SSD speeds that aren't widely available yet for consumer products. You can get enterprise ones but they're prohibitively expensive. Getting an SSD that can maintain 5.5gbps or above is going to require some significant cooling. I have had one rated for 7 in my pc and it generally hits 4.
 
Last edited:

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
They have stated they need SSD speeds that aren't widely available yet for consumer products. You can get enterprise ones but they're prohibitively expensive. Getting an SSD that can maintain 5.5gbps or above is going to require some significant cooling. I have had one rated for 7 in my pc and it generally hits 4.
Ok, so how does that translate into the “PS5 is overheating?”

None of my PC or laptops overheat with even more cramped and less ventilated to zero ventilation (in the laptop).

There are no certified parts yet by Sony, is that not accurate, or...?
 

kyliethicc

Member
They have stated they need SSD speeds that aren't widely available yet for consumer products. You can get enterprise ones but they're prohibitively expensive. Getting an SSD that can maintain 5.5gbps or above is going to require some significant cooling. I have had one rated for 7 in my pc and it generally hits 4.
The Samsung 980 SSD is for sale & fast enough for PS5. Its been real world tested to deliver 6.5 GB/s raw sequential read.

Its not gonna require "some significant cooling" or overheat anything. It'll work fine.

It's how the Xbox Series expansion drive gets real toasty. SSD's run hot and it lowers performance. That drive can do over 4gbps but they rate it for 2.4 because of heat generation.
Actually XSX SSD and Seagate Card are PCI Gen4x2, which max out at 3.5 GB/s.
Same as how PS5 & new M.2 SSDs that are PCI Gen4x4 max out at 7 GB/s.

And NAND flash is supposed to run hot, its good for it. Of course it could overheat theoretically, but that'd be hard to do. The slower read speeds tend to just be limited by the flash controller. Thats why Samsung had to make a new flash controller to get the Gen4 980 Pro M.2 SSD to hit 6.5 GB/s raw seq read in real world.

"Phison was the only SSD controller vendor ready with a PCIe 4.0 solution at the time; its E16 controller has enjoyed over a year on the market as the only option for consumer PCIe 4.0 SSDs. We're reported a lot about it as well. But the Phison E16 was a bit of a rushed design, with a minimum of changes to their highly successful E12 controller to enable PCIe 4.0 support. That left the E16 with some notable shortcomings: it only offers slightly more peak bandwidth provided by the upgrade to PCIe 4.0, and the extra performance comes with a lot of extra power consumption. The rest of the SSD industry decided to take the PCIe 4.0 transition a bit more slowly, preparing more mature controller designs to be manufactured on smaller process nodes that can provide the efficiency necessary to use the full speed of a PCIe 4.0 x4 link while staying within the thermal and power constraints of a M.2 drive.

All the major players in the SSD controller market have been preparing for this second wave of Gen4 drives, but Samsung is making the first move in this round. The 980 PRO introduces the new Samsung Elpis controller, built on their 8nm process and designed to double the peak performance offered by PCIe Gen3 SSDs."


 
Last edited:

Doncabesa

Member
Ok, so how does that translate into the “PS5 is overheating?”

None of my PC or laptops overheat with even more cramped and less ventilated to zero ventilation (in the laptop).

There are no certified parts yet by Sony, is that not accurate, or...?
I don't believe it's "ps5 is overheating" it would be the SSD that is, and that could lead to degraded in-game performance so you need to up the fan speed to try and help keep it down. It's how the Xbox Series expansion drive gets real toasty. SSD's run hot and it lowers performance. That drive can do over 4gbps but they rate it for 2.4 because of heat generation.
 
Last edited:

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
I don't believe it's "ps5 is overheating" it would be the SSD that is, and that could lead to degraded in-game performance so you need to up the fan speed to try and help keep it down. It's how the Xbox Series expansion drive gets real toasty. SSD's run hot and it lowers performance. That drive can do over 4gbps but they rate it for 2.4 because of heat generation.
You’re preaching to the choir. We’ll see, I’m betting this won’t be an issue when all is said and done with certifiable drives are more readily available. You’d have to be bullshitting yourselves if you think they haven’t taken that into account.
 
Last edited:
I don't believe it's "ps5 is overheating" it would be the SSD that is, and that could lead to degraded in-game performance so you need to up the fan speed to try and help keep it down. It's how the Xbox Series expansion drive gets real toasty. SSD's run hot and it lowers performance. That drive can do over 4gbps but they rate it for 2.4 because of heat generation.

I thought we were past the overheating PS5 rumors.
 

Sinthor

Gold Member
Huh?!?

If you bought the original game you get the upgrade free. if you get the game free on PS+ the upgrade is paid for.

There's no confusion or small print. It's pretty simple and fair.

Why would you expect to get the free upgrade if you never paid for the base game? Wouldn't that be unfair to the people who did?

You're blowing shit way out of proportion.



Not sure what you're seeing Bo. The new trailer gameplay sections looked just as good as the gameplay shown in the original reveal.

The game looks stunning:

620971-Kena-Bridge-of-Spirits.jpg

Kena-Bridge-of-Spirits-03-scaled.jpg

fallenstatue-1614288600245.jpg
It does look really good but if you go back and watch the original announcement trailer the little things with the big eyes had more hair. they had some fuzz on their bodies as well. Not sure about the rest of it, but something out yesterdays trailer bugged me when I saw it and I went back to the original and the difference made sense.
 

Gamerguy84

Member
I thought we were past the overheating PS5 rumors.

This is a new set. This time of the empty NVMe slot.

sircaw sircaw will need to break out his list he released a long time ago and update the database of FUD.

We need to add DS stick drift, DS battery life, NVMe expansion drives overheating, fan lottery, PS5 has been proven to be RDNA1, PS5 is losing all exclusives to PC day 1, all games delayed until next year, and HFW downgrades.

That's just this past week.
 
This is a new set. This time of the empty NVMe slot.

sircaw sircaw will need to break out his list he released a long time ago and update the database of FUD.

We need to add DS stick drift, DS battery life, NVMe expansion drives overheating, fan lottery, PS5 has been proven to be RDNA1, PS5 is losing all exclusives to PC day 1, all games delayed until next year, and HFW downgrades.

That's just this past week.

I'm just wondering how the NVME will overheat the PS5s APU. It doesn't really make sense to me given how far away it is.
 

FrankWza

Member
This is a new set. This time of the empty NVMe slot.

sircaw sircaw will need to break out his list he released a long time ago and update the database of FUD.

We need to add DS stick drift, DS battery life, NVMe expansion drives overheating, fan lottery, PS5 has been proven to be RDNA1, PS5 is losing all exclusives to PC day 1, all games delayed until next year, and HFW downgrades.

That's just this past week.
dcmk7 dcmk7 fixed a lot of PS5 issues when he made an x equivalent thread that had anonymous voting and was growing rapidly. The PS5 issues thread then stopped. Coincidence?
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yes, it looks like Google missed with the Stadia but I don't think ridiculing them about paying for these ports is probably warranted. The number one issue for new consoles and systems is getting the big games onto them. Developers don't want to take the time and money to port to another hardware platform that doesn't have millions of users waiting to buy their games yet. So I guarantee that Google (who aren't complete idiots, after all) had people that had modeled the opportunity cost of getting these games on the platform early while they developed more in house and expanded the user base. Why pay so much more? Because developers have finite resources. It isn't simply a matter of easily porting your game to any platform. There's lots of time and money involved and if you haven't staffed and planned for an effort to support yet another hardware platform, that will probably double the money it costs you as a developer. So Google was simply sweetening the pot to ENSURE that its platform got these big games like RDR2. So it may seem like a silly amount of money, to us, for Google to have spent, but I'm sure they had it modeled out. Just wasn't enough to kick start their sales and without consistently expanding their user base and getting a lot of sales, they can't justify continuing to spend that kind of money. Hence it looks like they may be shutting Stadia down.

I still can't say I'm surprised as I don't think streaming gaming is viable and I don't believe it will be for many years yet. Same reason Microsoft hasn't gone all in on Cloud. It's still 'in development.' Until just about EVERYONE has super fast, reliable internet connections, it's not going to be feasible at least on a very wide scale. Still, it is a bit bizarre to see Google giving up so relatively quickly. Then again, maybe there have been changes in leadership to people who didn't believe in the vision they were trying to follow. All kinds of factors could explain this.
yeah, that makes sense. You cant launch with no games. They just didnt have any leverage. I mean Sony is a business leader and they spent $300 million on second party deals this past year.

I am gonna chalk this up to the way Jason reported this. He made it seem like google had been had. He needs to be less clickbaity than that.

It does look really good but if you go back and watch the original announcement trailer the little things with the big eyes had more hair. they had some fuzz on their bodies as well. Not sure about the rest of it, but something out yesterdays trailer bugged me when I saw it and I went back to the original and the difference made sense.
Looks like I made the downgrade prediction thread for the wrong game. lol
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom