Support NeoGAF

[IntentionalPun]

A native compilation doesn't equal to not BC.

Yes it does.. you have no clue what you are talking about.

You can't just re-compile for the PS5.. you'd have to also change any code that has a breaking change between SDK 4 and SDK 5.

If you are a native game, you are no longer described as "BC." That doesn't mean your game is super improved over the PS4 version... that's.. a separate process.

 

[ethomaz]

Just to understand all the Ubisoft games enhanced via patch which runs at half res of the series X run natively on ps5?

Just to be clear... run nativity doesn't deny being BC.

 

[ethomaz]

Yes it does.. you have no clue what you are talking about.

You can't just re-compile for the PS5.. you'd have to also change any code that has a breaking change between SDK 4 and SDK 5.

If you are a native game, you are no longer described as "BC."

If you have no change to support the newer platform... it is still BC.

Xbox BC was that a recompilation of the code for the newer platform.

"We take each game, we recompile it so that it runs, but basically we’re running it still in a 360, and the team goes through the game with multiple passes."

Being native doesn't cross off being BC... both can be true.

 

[assurdum]

Yes.. it native literally just means compiled to the PS5.

That's going to involve having to change some code from your PS4 version... but much of it will be the same.

I'd like to know what make you so sure about how the code runs on ps5...

 

[Serouj2000]

Just to be clear... run nativity doesn't deny being BC.

(Biting fingernails while saying this)
Case... in... point...Bowser's...Inside...Story...DX

 

[Mr Moose]

Yes.. it native literally just means compiled to the PS5.

That's going to involve having to change some code from your PS4 version... but much of it will be the same.

I think he's talking about the BC games with the 60fps updates, those are just BC games not native PS5 versions.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I'd like to know what make you so sure about how run such games on ps5...

It's just.. relatively common knowledge if you know how BC and SDKs work?

The PS5 has a different SDK than the PS4.. which means you have to compile w/ your codebase referencing that SDK.

Huge chunk of your game won't directly interact with a system level SDK.. so you don't HAVE to change it.. some of the SDK interfaces are likely the same as the previous version, so you don't have to change those either.

Source: 20 years of developing software across dozens of SDKs and hundreds of SDK versions and a basic understanding of terms.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

C'mon you can't be so wrong with a concept just because you don't like what it is lol

BC is a hardware or software that can successful use the interface and data from early versions of the system.
The key point of the BC is that you won't change the original code designed for the early versions of the system.
There are several ways to archive BC and that include: Emulation (software or hardware), Recompilation (native or software language), etc.

When you do a recompilation and no code is changed it is still BC.
That is exactly what they did with the resolution in that game... they are using the same old code from PS4 Pro compiled to PS5 (aka BC).
The parts they changed is indeed not BC because they changed/designed to work on the newer hardware/software.

A native compilation doesn't equal to not being BC... because a native compilation can be BC.

Native = BC. Got it.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I think he's talking about the BC games with the 60fps updates, those are just BC games not native PS5 versions.

No he's not.. he's talking about native PS5 games.

He's claiming they are still BC... cuz.. like.. the entire game wasn't changed.

It's just.. wrong.. the games main renderer likely had to make some changes to support running in PS5 native w/ the PS5 SDK. But like any game, much of the same codebase is still used on PS4... we don't call that BC.. because.. well.. the English language.

 

[assurdum]

It's just.. relatively common knowledge if you know how BC and SDKs work?

The PS5 has a different SDK than the PS4.. which means you have to compile w/ your codebase referencing that SDK.

Huge chunk of your game won't directly interact with a system level SDK.. so you don't HAVE to change it.. some of the SDK interfaces are likely the same as the previous version, so you don't have to change those either.

Source: 20 years of developing software across dozens of SDKs and hundreds of SDK versions and a basic understanding of terms.

But ps5 uses hardware BC. Not software. E.G. Why RDNA is BC with GCN if we no need of BC when software update is enough?

 

[Mr Moose]

No he's not.. he's talking about native PS5 games.

He's claiming they are still BC... cuz.. like.. the entire game wasn't changed.

It's just.. wrong.. the games main renderer likely had to make some changes to support running in PS5 native w/ the PS5 SDK. But like any game, much of the same codebase is still used on PS4... we don't call that BC.. because.. well.. the English language.

Just to understand all the Ubisoft games enhanced via patch which runs at half res of the series X run natively on ps5?

He's talking about BC games like The Division 2 and stuff, I think.

 

[kyliethicc]

Will Knack 2 Remake be a native PS5 game or just BC?

Asking for a friend.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Will Knack 2 Remake be a native PS5 game or just BC?

Asking for a friend.

Rumour has it a leaker said you got to download both versions of the game, migrate data from the PS4 version, then download that file in the PS5 version, then you can delete the PS4 game file.

So going by that it'll be a BC game.

/S lol

 

[assurdum]

Never mind edited

 

[IntentionalPun]

He's talking about BC games like The Division 2 and stuff, I think.

They really aren't.. this conversation started with the Avengers PS5 update.. with the claim by assdrum that it must still not have access to the full CPU of the PS5 because somehow it's also using BC.

In steps ethomaz who isn't claiming that, but is claiming that we should still call games BC if they... I dunno.. use an SDK that didn't change? Or don't change AI logic?

It's nonsense.. they are talking nonsense.. stop trying to make sense of it, they are just wrong lol Or really stretching terms at the very least.. using an API that doesn't change.. sure, let's call that BC lol..

They are doing all of this to explain away the PS5 version of Avengers not having great performance.. The explanation is, it isn't well optimized.. not that it's BC.

 

[assurdum]

They really aren't.. this conversation started with the Avengers PS5 update.. with the claim by assdrum that it must still not have access to the full CPU of the PS5 because somehow it's also using BC.

In steps ethomaz who isn't claiming that, but is claiming that we should still call games BC if they... I dunno.. use an SDK that didn't change? Or don't change AI logic?

It's nonsense.. they are talking nonsense.. stop trying to make sense of it, they are just wrong lol

You don't know what hardware BC can imply on ps5. You can't say oh no way BC is involved because they recoded it, when you can't even know how works their code. Nonsense it's to think games natively built on PS4, can't be affected to the ps5 BC hardware because hardware BC it works like emulation software.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Here is where you mentioned a hypithetical 36cu gpu with fixed 1.8ghz maybe i understood you wrong

And yes variable clocks are one of the reasons the ps5 holds steady frame rates i dont get whyyou cant comprehend this. The nature of modern engines is variable everything is becoming variable this days from resolution to effects the engine is constantly flactuating things to keep a target frame rate and this needs an efficient adaptable silicon. Soon well even have variable compute units not just clocks but thats just my guess so back to ps5 yes fixed 36cus with a fixed 2.23ghz could have been a thing but its pointless because not every workload needs constant fixed clocks every frame as ive mentioned before you dont need 2.23ghz on a gpu when looking at the sky. So whats the point of fixed clocks?

Variable CUs?! What does that even mean. Game code running on CPUs and GPUs have hisorically ALWAYS been variable, by their very nature because they're based on an interactive simulation that is variable by definition.... because it's a game that relies on player interaction.

There's no direct benefit of using variable clockspeeds on the variable nature of gaming workloads running on the hardware. You're trying to incorrectly assign a woefully gross oversimplification to something that is damn near infinitely more complex.

Just stop it. This combined with your combative tone is really not a great look.

 

[IntentionalPun]

You don't know how hardware BC works on ps5. You can't say oh no way BC is involved because they recoded it when you can't even know how work their code.

You are inventing a concept here that has never existed in a past console, and wasn't described in any PS5 talks.. and in general, makes no sense.

What you are claiming:
- The Avengers game is using some native code (and we know that it is compiled for PS5 native mode.. because, well they said so, and that's how the game acts when installed)
- The Avengers game is also still somehow using a BC mode w/ limited CPU access at the same time as being native

You are the one who needs to justify this invention of how nobody has ever said PS5 or any system's BC works.

Instead you are claiming I don't know.. even though what I'm explaining is just.. the generally understood way BC works.. how SDKs work.. how Sony presented the BC modes vs. the native mode, etc.

 

[FranXico]

When you do a recompilation and no code is changed it is still BC.

No. It's a trivial port. Backwards compatibility is about running legacy machine code, emulated or not.

 

[Mr Moose]

Avengers has a native PS5 version, it can't be played on external HDD like BC games can.
Yes it's using some things from the Pro version (CBR), but it doesn't mean it's a BC game, it just means they didn't want to waste time and money porting a different version (PC) and doing everything from scratch to get it running on PS5.

 

[assurdum]

You are inventing a concept here that has never existed in a past console, and wasn't described in any PS5 talks.. and in general, makes no sense.

What you are claiming:
- The Avengers game is using some native code (and we know that it is compiled for PS5 native mode.. because, well they said so, and that's how the game acts when installed)
- The Avengers game is also still somehow using a BC mode w/ limited CPU access at the same time as being native

You are the one who needs to justify this invention of how nobody has ever said PS5 or any system's BC works.

Instead you are claiming I don't know.. even though what I'm explaining is just.. the generally understood way BC works.. how SDKs work.. how Sony presented the BC modes vs. the native mode, etc.

I simply said you can't know how the code works in every games but still you persist to say nope nope nope, it's all the same because it's native, when it's not true at all. Weird things happen especially when in a platform BC hardware is involved.

 

[IntentionalPun]

I simply said you can't know how the code works in any games but still you persist to say nope nope nope, it's all the same.

You claimed that Avengers PS5, which we know to be a native PS5 game, must still be stuck in some BC mode w/o access to the full CPU (but also running some native effects, EASILY you said! lol)

I helped explain to you why that makes no sense.

That's it. Because that's not how BC works.. that's not how it's ever worked, and not how anyone has ever claimed it works.

 

[assurdum]

You claimed that Avengers PS5, which we know to be a native PS5 game, must still be stuck in some BC mode w/o access to the full CPU (but also running some native effects, EASILY you said! lol)

I helped explain to you why that makes no sense.

That's it. Because that's not how BC works.. that's not how it's ever worked, and not how anyone has ever claimed it works.

I haven't said is stuck in BC mode. I talked about BC aspects in the code which affect negatively the perfomance.

 

[ethomaz]

Native = BC. Got it.

Native can be BC... yes.
Native and BC are not exclusives.

 

[ethomaz]

No. It's a trivial port. Backwards compatibility is about running legacy machine code, emulated or not.

Recompilation the legacy code without modification is still BC.
360 games are recompiled to Xbox One and they are still BC games.

BC and native are not mutual exclusives.

Port like the name says require the game code to be changed to support the new machine instructions/features.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Native = BC. Got it.

WIi could natively play gamecube games

 

[Jen_yakzua]

Leadership changes at Sony

Link to article

 

[IllegalLemon]

Leadership changes at Sony

Link to article

The Japan Studios restructuring and future isn't as bad as i thought. That still doesn't make me any less wary of Jimmy Boy though. He's made some pretty boneheaded decisions in the last year or so and I'm sure he won't stop there.

 

[Garani]

Will Knack 2 Remake be a native PS5 game or just BC?

Asking for a friend.

Knack is above everything. Don't touch my Knack!

 

[abel empire]

Variable CUs?! What does that even mean. Game code running on CPUs and GPUs have hisorically ALWAYS been variable, by their very nature because they're based on an interactive simulation that is variable by definition.... because it's a game that relies on player interaction.

There's no direct benefit of using variable clockspeeds on the variable nature of gaming workloads running on the hardware. You're trying to incorrectly assign a woefully gross oversimplification to something that is damn near infinitely more complex.

Just stop it. This combined with your combative tone is really not a great look.

I said variable cu's as a future technology guess for instance having 52 cus at 1.8ghz and variably clocking to 2.23ghz and only using 36cu's its a future hardware hypothesis.

Anyway heres amds smartshift and what and states it offers, if u cant comprehend it then whatever we are all speculating things here and im giving my thoughts on the subject so have it Your way.

 

[SubZer0]

Ok finally found the original source its from a site called Hardwaretimes

Source: https://www.hardwaretimes.com/amd-r...-on-efficiency/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

[assurdum]

Ok so I just checked this video because I was curious to understand what's going on Avengers and if there is a difference between CBR on pro Vs ps5; it's the only video available about it.

In theory at 60 FPS CBR should be more precise but I could swear in different spots to see a lot of more jaggies on ps5 compared the pro at 4k and it has no sense at all to me.

 

[ErRor88]

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Ok so I just checked this video because I was curious to understand what's going on Avengers and if there is a difference between CBR on pro Vs ps5; it's the only video available about it.

In theory at 60 FPS CBR should be more precise but I could swear in different spots to see a lot of more jaggies on ps5 compared the pro at 4k and it has no sense at all to me.

If you want to compare PS4Pro CBR to PS5 CBR, you need to find a screen to screen comparison between PS4Pro quality mode and PS5 performance mode. I don't see that in the video.

 

[demigod]

Copying Sony again. What’s next, Xbox Now?

 

[SSfox]

Playstation Network.... Xbox Network...

Bruh they can't help to Copy Sony even in brand naming right?

I guess it's just Microsoft being Microsoft, next step they're gonna copy past the Playstation 5 controller and they'll for sure as usual call it innovation without shame

 

[jamwest24]

Copying Sony again. What’s next, Xbox Now?

How long before it’s called XBN??

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Copying Sony again. What’s next, Xbox Now?

Gamepass is an infinitely better name, so don't worry

 

[LiquidRex]

 

[cragarmi]

I'm guessing that should be Asobi! Otherwise I'd say 40% accurate?

 

[Sinthor]

Gamepass is an infinitely better name, so don't worry

Gotta give it to Microsoft, 'Gamepass' is a pretty darn good name. Of course, you realize they'll 'rebrand' and change it now, right?

 

[Locuza]

Take XsX for example, which has separate CPU and GPU power. In PS5, the SoC has a unified power limit. Both of these SoCs have roughly the same power limit overall (the PS5 has slightly more). You write that the GPU eats away the power of the CPU when it is not heavily used and yes, it does when it's needed. But the GPU has its own piece of power in order to keep the frequency at 2.23GHz at cap anyway, just like CPU. Is not so? Of course yes. The SoC's power is designed to supply both the CPU and GPU at the same time, without the need for any restrictions. The unused power for CPU is needed to further increase productivity of the GPU. This is what Smart Shift firmware does. You understand it somehow in your own way. In your opinion, the PS5 SoC power limit is designed to power either the CPU or the GPU at total and not both. This is what is called nonsense. I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

If you mean the max frequency with powering the CPU or GPU at total, than no, it's not my opinion or statement that the PS5 has to choose which unit it has to run at maximum speed.
And I drew a simple example:

For most cases it can very well be that both CPU and GPU run always at 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz, however as stated by Mark Cerny there can be cases where the units are forced to downlock.
Now if the CPU is not fully loaded but the GPU is exceeding its own power budget, the GPU may still clock at constant 2.23GHz because it can borrow the unused CPU power.
That's why the total GPU power budget depends on the load put on the CPU, because it is GPU Power + unused CPU Power.
And this was my argument, that if we have games which heavily stress both the CPU and GPU, that we may see the GPU downclocking.

I was not stating that the units can't run at max frequency at the same time, nor that the PS5 CPU or GPU will have to constantly downclock for most cases or that they will have to downclock heavily.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Gotta give it to Microsoft, 'Gamepass' is a pretty darn good name. Of course, you realize they'll 'rebrand' and change it now, right?

The way things are going, they will ditch 'Xbox' and rebrand everything to Gamepass.

 

[Sinthor]

No. It's a trivial port. Backwards compatibility is about running legacy machine code, emulated or not.

I don't understand the confusion here on this. Backwards compatibility is simply running the same code from the previous generation without alteration. If your hardware allows such games to run at 60fps instead of 30fps, that's good, but it's BC. This is why for example, the PS5 GPU still has the PS4 GPU's instructions buried in it. In BC mode, the PS5 can execute that code, just at a vastly faster rate of speed (if allowed). THAT is backwards compatibility. A PS4 game and game code, cannot access features of the NEW GPU that it did not have instructions for.

Now these "patches," I'm not clear on how they are working. Have we seen or had published that these patches are actually a port of the central engine or game engine code to the PS5? Or is there some way to 'piggyback' the new instructions into that code quickly? Bottom line, if the code has been recompiled for PS5 then it is not BC.

To an extent I see the issue...how do you have 'next gen' patches that still use the same graphic modes as on PS4, just better performance? Isn't that BC? I don't know that we have this clarified, but I think simple logic and common sense indicates that a small patch is NOT the same as a game being developed from the ground up for either XSX or PS5. I'm betting that Sony has simply engineered the tools to where just the core game can be recompiled for PS5 and take advantage of a limited and easily implemented set of improvements. Then developers can release the patch and all the same PS4 graphical assets, etc. can be used by the "new" version of the code. That's my guess. So it's not TECHNICALLY BC, but it is definitely not a full remake of the game with the PS5 as the target. In other words, the patch that makes say Man-eater a "PS5 game" is not taking advantage of and not a PS5 specific application like Demon's Souls Remake is.

 

[Insane Metal]

Remedy: Xbox Series S Optimization Is Nowhere Near as Simple as Lowering Resolution and Textures

Remedy's Thomas Puha talked about Xbox Series S optimization, stating that it's nowhere near as simple as lowering resolution and textures.

wccftech.com

 

[Rea]

Avengers has a native PS5 version, it can't be played on external HDD like BC games can.
Yes it's using some things from the Pro version (CBR), but it doesn't mean it's a BC game, it just means they didn't want to waste time and money porting a different version (PC) and doing everything from scratch to get it running on PS5.

Agree, i suspect that the developer didn't have time to optimise resolution on ps5 after tweaking some special effects and called it a day.

 

[PSX]

 

[Anchovie123]

Insomniac working on 5 games?

 

[Rea]

The way things are going, they will ditch 'Xbox' and rebrand everything to Gamepass.

Yeah, that's my guess too, xbox as a console will diminish and Xbox as a gamepass will prevail.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Can anyone verify this please?

Its just after lunch and I'd like an erection. kthanxbye