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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Rea

Rea

Member
Sinthor said:
I don't understand the confusion here on this. Backwards compatibility is simply running the same code from the previous generation without alteration. If your hardware allows such games to run at 60fps instead of 30fps, that's good, but it's BC. This is why for example, the PS5 GPU still has the PS4 GPU's instructions buried in it. In BC mode, the PS5 can execute that code, just at a vastly faster rate of speed (if allowed). THAT is backwards compatibility. A PS4 game and game code, cannot access features of the NEW GPU that it did not have instructions for.

Now these "patches," I'm not clear on how they are working. Have we seen or had published that these patches are actually a port of the central engine or game engine code to the PS5? Or is there some way to 'piggyback' the new instructions into that code quickly? Bottom line, if the code has been recompiled for PS5 then it is not BC.

To an extent I see the issue...how do you have 'next gen' patches that still use the same graphic modes as on PS4, just better performance? Isn't that BC? I don't know that we have this clarified, but I think simple logic and common sense indicates that a small patch is NOT the same as a game being developed from the ground up for either XSX or PS5. I'm betting that Sony has simply engineered the tools to where just the core game can be recompiled for PS5 and take advantage of a limited and easily implemented set of improvements. Then developers can release the patch and all the same PS4 graphical assets, etc. can be used by the "new" version of the code. That's my guess. So it's not TECHNICALLY BC, but it is definitely not a full remake of the game with the PS5 as the target. In other words, the patch that makes say Man-eater a "PS5 game" is not taking advantage of and not a PS5 specific application like Demon's Souls Remake is.
Click to expand...
Developers still can use PS4 engines to make games run natively on ps5 without using any of extra features such as ray tracing or GE , ( my guess is GPU scrubber too).
Source: Cerny road to PS5.
 
cragarmi

cragarmi

Member
Anchovie123 said:
Insomniac working on 5 games?

3x
Click to expand...
In terms of in active development, no not a chance, 2 is most likely, but in terms of ideas on a white board somewhere, or a few scribbles on a napkin, possibly?
 
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Shmunter

Shmunter

Member
Rea said:
Developers still can use PS4 engines to make games run natively on ps5 without using any of extra features such as ray tracing or GE , ( my guess is GPU scrubber too).
Source: Cerny road to PS5.
Click to expand...
Code cut and paste no doubt. Then some basic enhancements comparable to slider push on PC. Sometimes replacing some subroutines, but very isolated and minor.

Unfortunately this will continue for awhile yet.
 
TheRedRiders

TheRedRiders

Member
edotlee said:
As with any twitter insider, I would ignore or take with a huge grain of salt.

From the other place, apparently, this is another one of his "insider" accounts.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of good 'ol PSERebus, he impulsively used to make up rumours and leaks and tweet them, even big Youtube channels would use him as a source even though almost everything he said turned out to be horse shit. He'd also throw a massive tantrum if you called him out.
 
  • LOL
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DemonCleaner

DemonCleaner

Member
Elog said:
I still think that a lot of you are not aware how little of the silicon that is actually used at "100% GPU and CPU" utilisation at a given frequency. The actual power consumption will be a function of the actual amount of transistors that are engaged and not just the frequency.

Here is a sample chart of two AMD cards (Nvidia is no different) from Wu et al (https://doi.org/10.1145/3377138).
9mvzlRf.png
As you can see from the graph for a sample "100% GPU" utilisation workload the average actual utilisation is around 40% or so. This is mainly driven by two things: Architecture (i.e. how well can the GPU feed the CUs with relevant information and how are all the individual components scaled vis-a-vis each other to avoid queuing) and programming (i.e. how well is the code written to avoid underutilisation).

This is why power consumption can vary like crazy at the same "100% utilisation" and frequency. This is what most people miss when discussing the smart shift technology and cooling solutions. I am fairly certain that most of our GPUs in our PCs would have severely inadequate cooling solutions if the software actually could get 100% of the transistors to be used - the GPU would shut down because the cooling solution has been selected to deal with a standard world and some more - which ends up fairly far from 100% of actual utilisation.

In other words - looking at the graph above, if you have a theoretical peak TFLOP card with 10 TFLOPs the graphics you see on the screen represent an actual TFLOP output of roughly 4 TFLOPs. The rest is not used. What Cerny has tried to do with the PS5 is to increase that 40% to a higher number. Let us for the sake of argument say that a design increases that number to 50% instead of 40% due to better I/O - that is a 25% increase in performance. Now everyone can see that an 18% difference in theoretical peak TFLOP is not that much at the end of the day.

The second dimension - as mentioned - is software and for consoles this is the development environment and how optimised the API set is in utilising the silicon. It is not random that Sony spent all that time with Epic to ensure that the UE5 Sony module is optimised as much as it can be for the PS5. That is probably more important than the hardware as such given how many transistors that are unused on average. Personally, I believe that MS decision to unify the development environment across PC, XSS and XSX is a challenge here - it makes it increasingly harder to get good transistor utilisation when you go for one-solution-fits-all.

If you are successful as a hardware and software designer in increasing the transistor utilisation you need a system that can handle that. That means you need a really good cooling solution (we all know what happened towards the end with the PS4 when the transistor utilisation went up the cooling solution was on life-support to handle it) and you need a power management system that can survive a fairly significant increase in transistor utilisation rate. Here is the reason for the dual side- and liquid-cooling solution and why Sony went with Smart shift. That is why Smart shift currently does not mean that the frequency is decreased at all - but in the future that might very well be the case if transistor utilisation is increased. Please note, if transistor utilisation is increased by 25% so the power draw is too high you probably need to adjust frequency by less then 10% to make the thermal and power envelope adequate. In other words - it is still a performance win. Or in other words - you will not need to down clock unless you see a net performance increase from increased transistor utilisation.

Apologies for the long post - I just feel that the discussion ends up in some weird rabbit holes at times.
Click to expand...

excellent post
 
Red_Driver85

Red_Driver85

Member
Locuza said:
For most cases it can very well be that both CPU and GPU run always at 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz
Click to expand...
Most of it's time, yes.

Locuza said:
Now if the CPU is not fully loaded but the GPU is exceeding its own power budget, the GPU may still clock at constant 2.23GHz because it can borrow the unused CPU power.
Click to expand...
Mistake. No constant, but continuous boost. Variable frequency is needed for more smart flexibility, power shift is needed for more GPU performance, just a little bit beyond.
Locuza said:
That's why the total GPU power budget depends on the load put on the CPU, because it is GPU Power + unused CPU Power.
Click to expand...
Maximum from additional unused CPU Power. More power => more perfomance.
Locuza said:
And this was my argument, that if we have games which heavily stress both the CPU and GPU, that we may see the GPU downclocking.
Click to expand...
Ок, my man, but what's about Xbox Series X then? It has slightly more power hungry GPU and more power hungry CPU at the full load. Throttling to CPU or to GPU?
 
Sinthor

Sinthor

Gold Member
Rea said:
Developers still can use PS4 engines to make games run natively on ps5 without using any of extra features such as ray tracing or GE , ( my guess is GPU scrubber too).
Source: Cerny road to PS5.
Click to expand...
I guess I just have problems with that statement and have to figure it out. Using a PS4 engine on PS5 sounds like BC, especially without having access or using any of the 'extra features.' I think maybe you mean what I was talking about- recompiling the code so it is technically "native" to PS5 and is running as such, but still using the feature set of the game from PS4 and/or having some small improvements that were easier to engineer in, activated like additional FPS or resolution perhaps.

Because a true "native" application WOULD have access to all those additional PS5 features. But what you're saying as well tracks pretty good with what I was thinking these patches that give you a "PS5 version" of the game are. Minimal ports, really. Because to really take advantage of all those extra features they would need to significantly re-work the game engines.
 
Sinthor

Sinthor

Gold Member
Shmunter said:
Code cut and paste no doubt. Then some basic enhancements comparable to slider push on PC. Sometimes replacing some subroutines, but very isolated and minor.

Unfortunately this will continue for awhile yet.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I was trying to say. Since it's recompiled it's not "BC" but it's not a significant re-work that would be required to really take advantage of all those 'next gen' features. It's a cost effective way for devs to go and they can spend relatively little effort in bumping up the FPS or some resolution enhancements perhaps. Or focus on the I/O. Seems to be what's going on so far. There's a significant difference between the features we're seeing on these games that are 'patched' to be PS5 versions versus those that are actually re-worked. Nioh 2 is a good example of a game that offers significant improvements over the original. That thing flies!
 
Rea

Rea

Member
Sinthor said:
I guess I just have problems with that statement and have to figure it out. Using a PS4 engine on PS5 sounds like BC, especially without having access or using any of the 'extra features.' I think maybe you mean what I was talking about- recompiling the code so it is technically "native" to PS5 and is running as such, but still using the feature set of the game from PS4 and/or having some small improvements that were easier to engineer in, activated like additional FPS or resolution perhaps.

Because a true "native" application WOULD have access to all those additional PS5 features. But what you're saying as well tracks pretty good with what I was thinking these patches that give you a "PS5 version" of the game are. Minimal ports, really. Because to really take advantage of all those extra features they would need to significantly re-work the game engines.
Click to expand...
Agree.
 
Lysandros

Lysandros

Member
MasterCornholio said:
The framerate stats are interesting.


Frame Rate Statistics
17Mean Frame Rate59.97fps59.9fps59.95fps
18Median Frame Rate60fps60fps60fps
19Maximum Frame Rate60fps60fps60fps
20Minimum Frame Rate57fps51fps57fps
215th Percentile Frame Rate60fps59fps60fps
221st Percentile Frame Rate59fps58fps59fps

Seems like the PS5 does have enough juice to run the game at Native DRS instead of CB.
Click to expand...
I agree, PS5's minimum frame rate is around 12% higher.
 
FranXico

FranXico

Member
bitbydeath said:
Fake. He states in the comments that a studio called ‘Visual Arts’ is Sonys new San Diego studio that’s working on Uncharted, yet in the external development space he has that same studio working on Halo, COD and Final Fantasy.
Click to expand...
The Visual Arts studio specializes on reusable assets, it's not a dev studio per se.

Edit: now I see. Unless Sony also sells out game art, that's not right.
 
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BGs

BGs

Industry Professional
Shmunter said:
Why would you think that? Is there a technical reason behind it?
Click to expand...
Sorry delay.

There is no standard compatibility between VR devices. Each project must be prepared from the beginning for each Device. If your project is multiplatform, you must include the configurations of each device in the code, and it is not easy to add it later. It is not overly complex either, but it should be done if a new Headset appears on the market. Especially because of the different specific positioning systems of each Headset. Therefore the game must be patched to add that new Headset. Just as there are versions of games for PS4 and PS5, the same will happen with PSVR1 & 2. Most likely, if you want to play PSVR games without patching you should use the original PSVR. But they will surely make free updates to the games or prepare them so that when PSVR2 comes out you can play them. But if an old game works with PSVR2, rest assured that that game has been patched even if they haven't told you.
 
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kyliethicc

kyliethicc

Member
FranXico said:
The Visual Arts studio specializes on reusable assets, it's not a dev studio per se.

Edit: now I see. Unless Sony also sells out game art, that's not right.
Click to expand...

mitchman said:
- It's not fake, it's the actual name of the studio.
Click to expand...


Visual Arts Services Group are Sony's internal mo-cap and animation studio in San Diego. They've worked on pretty much every Sony AAA game in the last 12 years or so. They primarily do support on cinematics and character animation, models, etc. The also sometimes work on 3rd party games like Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order.

It seems like Sony set up a new studio in San Diego recently, maybe to make a new Uncharted game with a lil help from Naughty Dog. But we have no idea if this studio would be called "San Diego Studio" or "Visual Arts" or something new.

VASG was founded and led by Michael Mumbauer, who recently left. This is from his LinkenIn. Kinda implies they're now making their own game:

"Michael Mumbauer worked at PlayStation as Studio Head until November 2020. In the segment of his profile detailing his work with the new San Diego team, Mumbauer writes: “His latest achievement is having built a brand new, all-star, AAA Action/Adventure development team for Playstation. Based in San Diego and utilizing proprietary engine technology, this team was assembled to expand upon existing franchises and craft all new stories for the next generation of gamers.”"

www.ign.com

Sony's New San Diego Team Is Working on 'Existing Franchises' - IGN

Sony's mysterious new San Diego studio is working on "existing franchises" according to a former PlayStation studio head.
www.ign.com www.ign.com

This is from their job listings implying work on a new Uncharted game.

"The Sony PlayStation Visual Arts Services Group (VASG) provides world class content, development, and services to Worldwide Studios. We offer a full service production studio with an emphasis in art, animation, as well as previsualization, character creation, motion capture, software development, face/body scanning, tracking and solving.

We are looking for a highly talented, motivated and creative Animator for the next chapter of cinematic story-telling. Here is your chance to be a part of the Visual Arts Services Group, a multi-award winning team responsible for the cinematic performances in premier Sony PlayStation franchises like Uncharted, The Last of Us, Killzone, and other iconic series."

Sony Playstation Visual Arts Services Group - CTN Opportunities

Home
recruiting.creativetalentnetwork.com

This is a recent interview the former studio head gave about VASG with David Jaffe.

 
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Shmunter

Shmunter

Member
BGs said:
Sorry delay.

There is no standard compatibility between VR devices. Each project must be prepared from the beginning for each Device. If your project is multiplatform, you must include the configurations of each device in the code, and it is not easy to add it later. It is not overly complex either, but it should be done if a new Headset appears on the market. Especially because of the different specific positioning systems of each Headset. Therefore the game must be patched to add that new Headset. Just as there are versions of games for PS4 and PS5, the same will happen with PSVR1 & 2. Most likely, if you want to play PSVR games without patching you should use the original PSVR. But they will surely make free updates to the games or prepare them so that when PSVR2 comes out you can play them. But if an old game works with PSVR, rest assured that that game has been patched even if they haven't told you.
Click to expand...
Solid insight.

I’m holding onto the hope that an abstraction layer can be applied making the underlying game simply think you are holding a move controller when in fact it’s the VRSense. Similarly to how PS4 games think you are using a DS4 not the DS.
 
BGs

BGs

Industry Professional
Shmunter said:
Solid insight.

I’m holding onto the hope that an abstraction layer can be applied making the underlying game simply think you are holding a move controller when in fact it’s the VRSense. Similarly to how PS4 games think you are using a DS4 not the DS.
Click to expand...
In the last sentence I wanted to say PSVR2, I edited it after your quote.
 
BGs

BGs

Industry Professional
Shmunter said:
Yep, self evident.
Click to expand...
Regarding your comment, what I see as more feasible is that Sony creates tools that allow the conversion to be extremely simple and fast. But since they are different detection systems, it is inevitable to do this conversion in all games. Luckily for sure they have thought about it and must already have the solution (I say "now" because the solution should be there before receiving the devkits, although the solution could also come later, it would not be a drama). I also understand that Sony will force all VR games in the Store to be patched to aid in the magnification of the PSVR2 catalog. But at the moment I have no information in that regard, although I would consider it absurd for Sony not to facilitate the compatibility of old games with PSVR2, so I firmly believe that Sony will solve it.
 
onesvenus

onesvenus

Member
BGs said:
Sorry delay.

There is no standard compatibility between VR devices. Each project must be prepared from the beginning for each Device. If your project is multiplatform, you must include the configurations of each device in the code, and it is not easy to add it later. It is not overly complex either, but it should be done if a new Headset appears on the market. Especially because of the different specific positioning systems of each Headset. Therefore the game must be patched to add that new Headset. Just as there are versions of games for PS4 and PS5, the same will happen with PSVR1 & 2. Most likely, if you want to play PSVR games without patching you should use the original PSVR. But they will surely make free updates to the games or prepare them so that when PSVR2 comes out you can play them. But if an old game works with PSVR2, rest assured that that game has been patched even if they haven't told you.
Click to expand...
Can you provide more context on what you mean with this?
I've worked with various VR devices and you usually don't have access to the raw positioning information system, just a matrix transformation that tells you the headset orientation and position regarding a base orientation/position, which is usually the reset state i.e. when the user presses the start button for example. This makes it quite easy to avoid dealing with the positioning systems.
It's true that every headset has it's own coordinate system but that's really easy to account for
 
B

BuffNTuff

Banned
Booted up my Xbox series x after not touching it for a few months and gaming exclusively on ps5.

Ps5 needs some more stability and love for sure, the rest mode is still fucked for me.

But the latest Xbox update definitely ducked some shit up for me too and black ops doesn’t work anymore.

Otherwise can’t really tell the systems apart even when I try. Neither have any real next gen games yet. Covid really screwed up software whether it’s the games or the firmware itself. Shit wasn’t done in the oven for anyone.
 
Bryank75

Bryank75

Banned
VFXVeteran said:
I'm confused about that. I even got a warning for showing inappropriate content. What is going on?
Click to expand...

Crazy... no reason posted to close it, no mod posts....

I found it very interesting and was very happy that you liked the game, was one of my highlights of the generation...I always wanted a grounded samurai game.

Still thirsty for more of it, with next gen improvements!
 
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Mr Moose

Mr Moose

Member
VFXVeteran said:
I'm confused about that. I even got a warning for showing inappropriate content. What is going on?
Click to expand...
I just finished reading it and refreshed to find it locked. What inappropriate content :pie_thinking: I didn't notice any.
Would the names not being blocked out properly count? I don't believe so but that's the only thing that comes to mind.
 
BGs

BGs

Industry Professional
onesvenus said:
Can you provide more context on what you mean with this?
I've worked with various VR devices and you usually don't have access to the raw positioning information system, just a matrix transformation that tells you the headset orientation and position regarding a base orientation/position, which is usually the reset state i.e. when the user presses the start button for example. This makes it quite easy to avoid dealing with the positioning systems.
It's true that every headset has it's own coordinate system but that's really easy to account for
Click to expand...
Then you will know that if you make a game or interactive VR app for HTC, this App will not be able to work as it is in PSVR without making the relevant compatibility changes in the App. In the same way, for the same with PSVR1 & 2. No matter the amount of changes or difficulty of changes, the old games will have to be patched.
 
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