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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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So is there difference from Dedicated Hardware ML acceleration and ML running on Hardware (CPU/GPU)

Technically doesn't a part of hardware freedup to run ML acceleration in itself become dedicated hardware for ML acceleration. šŸ¤” šŸ˜›
Really depends on the hardware. For example, Nvidia's Tensor cores accelerate ML by something like 700% compared to FP32.
 

Thirty7ven

Banned
So is there difference from Dedicated Hardware ML acceleration and ML running on Hardware (CPU/GPU)

Technically doesn't a part of hardware freedup to run ML acceleration in itself become dedicated hardware for ML acceleration. šŸ¤” šŸ˜›

It's the difference between hardware support and dedicated hardware. AMD has hardware support for INT8/INT4, which means those shaders will be able to run that precision, but it's still happening at the shader level. Nvidia has entire HW blocks dedicated to that task. It's all hardware in the end, but one approach is adding versatility to what's there and the other is actually adding processors specific to it. In the end the difference is performance, and it's a big difference.
 

LiquidRex

Member
People said PS5 couldn't either with int4/8, only the Series consoles could. Turns out they were wrong, as usual.
Only difference I can see is that Series X has more CUs so will be a bit better at it, probably.
But doesn't Mesh Shading run off the CUs too, where as the PS5 has a dedicated HW block (GE)

The PS5 has less CUs but it appears to me it has other hardware freeing up said CUs e.g IO block with its own dedicated chip to free the CPU, Tempest Engine which handles all audio and perform further compute tasks if desired.

Not to mention the throughput of the architecture. šŸ¤”
 

Shmunter

Member
But doesn't Mesh Shading run off the CUs too, where as the PS5 has a dedicated HW block (GE)

The PS5 has less CUs but it appears to me it has other hardware freeing up said CUs e.g IO block with its own dedicated chip to free the CPU, Tempest Engine which handles all audio and perform further compute tasks if desired.

Not to mention the throughput of the architecture. šŸ¤”
Precisely. Once PS5 software starts hitting all the available hardware feature of the system in unison things will truly shift to a new next gen paradigm.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
But doesn't Mesh Shading run off the CUs too, where as the PS5 has a dedicated HW block (GE)

The PS5 has less CUs but it appears to me it has other hardware freeing up said CUs e.g IO block with its own dedicated chip to free the CPU, Tempest Engine which handles all audio and perform further compute tasks if desired.

Not to mention the throughput of the architecture. šŸ¤”

Both systems have GE units, that's just part of the AMD cannon. Ultimately all shaders should run on the CUs, that's what they are for.
 
Insmoniac dev confirmed ML in the ps5 gpu.

ncCS3yC.jpg

This only confirms the mesh deformation is running with ML inference at runtime on the GPU, not necessarily that the GPU has dedicated hardware for ML...

...that said, neither system has dedicated hardware for ML. Mixed precision packed math for INT and FP ops doesn't qualify as ML dedicated hardware. It's a general purpose hardware advancement that also benefits ML operations.

Dedicated ML hardware would be silicon dedicated to low precision matrix math. Something like Tensor cores on NVidia GPUs or the Neural PU on the latest Apple APU.

I think thereā€™s an easy way to discern this.
Does the muscle update work on PS4?
If yes - itā€™s not using dedicated ML hardware.
If no - it is using dedicated ML hardware.

Thereā€™s absolutely no reason it shouldnā€™t work on PS4 if it only requires general ML.

Not necessarily.

The ML inference can still run in a shader on the CU array and not work on PS4 simply because the PS4 version of the game doesn't have sufficient performance headroom. ML inference is expensive.



also no performance penalty


Now this is interesting. I'd argue it all but confirms the inclusion of packed math for INT ops (most likely, since it's a standard RDNA2 feature) or other such ML acceleration hardware advancement. There's no other explanation I can think of that would eventuate this outcome.

People said PS5 couldn't either with int4/8, only the Series consoles could. Turns out they were wrong, as usual.
Only difference I can see is that Series X has more CUs so will be a bit better at it, probably.

Nope. Clocks and shader array width BOTH impact ML op performance. Please let's try to get away from these myths that increasing CU count alone benefits much of anything.

Literally anything that runs on the CUs will benefit equally from CU count as it would clock frequency (and in many cases the latter even more so, because of the challenges of thread occupancy for a width but slower array with slower FE and Back End). So in the end it would come down to the TFs difference.

Xbox gamers must be so relieved at this news

They were so concerned about the PS5s ML capabilities bless em

Lmfao... Ass of Can Whooping Ass of Can Whooping you are one of my favourite posters on this forum.

Both systems have GE units, that's just part of the AMD cannon. Ultimately all shaders should run on the CUs, that's what they are for.

This is disingenuous. The Ps5 ostensibly has a more custom GE than the standard one in RDNA1/2/XSX/XSS.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Xbox gamers must be so relieved at this news

They were so concerned about the PS5s ML capabilities bless em
lol haha.
Dedicated ML hardware would be silicon dedicated to low precision matrix math. Something like Tensor cores on NVidia GPUs or the Neural PU on the latest Apple APU.
Right. I said that in another thread recently and someone got upset at me for it. It would be interesting if the Switch Pro has silicon dedicated for Tensor cores over shader cores.
 
lol haha.

Right. I said that in another thread recently and someone got upset at me for it. It would be interesting if the Switch Pro has silicon dedicated for Tensor cores over shader cores.

It would be extremely surprising given the power budget. I think when it comes to Nintendo and hardware, people should really lower their expectations.

They're very conservative with their hardware design. I don't see that changing much looking into the future.

GPU probably support INT4/INT8 just like RDNA2... after all the compute units are RDNA2.
That was what most believed but there are some FUD created to say the opposite šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø

PS. It interesting to not like we were discussing in the Tony thread yesterday that all FUD is related to PS5 not having something.

Correction: Mixed precision packed math for INT4/8 OPs.

Almost every GPU in existence supports INT4/8 OPs.

The advancement that benefits ML is packed math (like RPM for FP16 on the PS4 Pro) that multiplies throughput and Mixed Precision that allows for greater OP flexibility with that increased throughput.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Correction: Mixed precision packed math for INT4/8 OPs.

Almost every GPU in existence supports INT4/8 OPs.

The advancement that benefits ML is packed math (like RPM for FP16 on the PS4 Pro) that multiplies throughput and Mixed Precision that allows for greater OP flexibility with that increased throughput.
Before RDNA 2 INT4/INT8 were emulated using INT16 units... you basically used all that silicon to do a single instruction in INT4 or INT8... now you use the silicon to do 4 INT4 or 2 INT8 instructions.

There is a big difference... between the emulation and the hardware support.

Screenshot_2020-11-18-RDNA-2-questions-areejs12-hardwaretimes-com-Hardware-Times-Mail-1024x557.png


These are the difference between the hardware ML and non hardware ML in AMD GPUs.
RDNA 1.1 is the internal name used by AMD... RDNA 2 is the marketing name... same happened with GCN where GCN 1.5 is GCN 5. you can see they are identicals.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
It would be extremely surprising given the power budget. I think when it comes to Nintendo and hardware, people should really lower their expectations.

They're very conservative with their hardware design. I don't see that changing much looking into the future.
I think it will come down to silicon space vs performance. If tensor cores take 20% more space and give them 100% more performance via DLSS 2.0 or 3.0 then that would be a better usage of silicon space than adding 20% more shader cores for 20% more performance.

But yeah, their silicon budget is far more limited than the PS4 and XSX because of their insane insistence on it being a handheld. They already have a handheld only switch lite, why cant they make a docked only switch pro? it's rumored to be $399 which makes sense since switch lite is a $100 cheaper than the regular switch. why cant they release a docked only console for $100 more?

Also at $399 they will be competing with the PS5 DE. That means they will need to have a much better CPU and even an SSD, and you cant do that in a handheld.
 

ethomaz

Banned

Same as VGTech.

1440p most of time with solid framerate.
He did get the same minor exceptions on framerate on PS5 like VGTech.

They had a bigger test time I believe... VGTech is only 3 minutes gameplay even so the results are very similar.

Curiosity if you have a 1440p120 HDMI 2.0 screen the PS5 downscale the 1440p render to 1080p while the Series X still output 1440p... that is because PS5 doesn't support 1440p screens. In a HDMI 2.1 screen both will do the same.
 
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SubZer0

Banned
These are the difference between the hardware ML and non hardware ML in AMD GPUs.
RDNA 1.1 is the internal name used by AMD... RDNA 2 is the marketing name... same happened with GCN where GCN 1.5 is GCN 5. you can see they are identicals
RDNA 1.1 is used in navi 12 (RX 5500xt)
RDNA 1.0 is navi 10 (RX 5700xt)
In navi 12 the int4/8 implementation was broken and they fixed it in navi 12 (RDNA 1.1)
 

ethomaz

Banned
RDNA 1.1 is used in navi 12 (RX 5500xt)
RDNA 1.0 is navi 10 (RX 5700xt)
In navi 12 the int4/8 implementation was broken and they fixed it in navi 12 (RDNA 1.1)
I believe you meant Navi 10 at start of the third phase but I get it.
So RDNA 1.0 was suppose to have INT4/INT8 mixed.
 
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Neo Blaster

Member
'Of course, Monster Truck Championship is a cross-gen title, which means itā€™s not built to leverage PS5 and Xbox Series Xā€™s SSDs as much as next-gen exclusives in the future will be. More than anything, itā€™ll be interesting to see how first party exclusives built specifically for either console will leverage their hardware.'

Nuff said...
 
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Lysandros

Member
'Of course, Monster Truck Championship is a cross-gen title, which means itā€™s not built to leverage PS5 and Xbox Series Xā€™s SSDs as much as next-gen exclusives in the future will be. More than anything, itā€™ll be interesting to see how first party exclusives built specifically for either console will leverage their hardware.'

Nuff said...
The original article is a complete utter joke/nonsense "Xbox series X has a much more impressive GPU" No need to read a single word after such a crude fallacy.
 
But doesn't Mesh Shading run off the CUs too, where as the PS5 has a dedicated HW block (GE)

The PS5 has less CUs but it appears to me it has other hardware freeing up said CUs e.g IO block with its own dedicated chip to free the CPU, Tempest Engine which handles all audio and perform further compute tasks if desired.

Not to mention the throughput of the architecture. šŸ¤”
As far as I'm aware, Mesh and Primitive Shaders are still executed on the CU Shader Arrays, the GE along with the Command Processor are responsible for setting up graphics workloads and distributing them to the CU's. How those workloads are setup, scheduled and distributed to the CU is critical to performance (especially culling) and it's within the setup, scheduling and distribution the PS5 GE may differ from the standard RDNA 1/2 implementation and Series X/S.

I could be wrong here so feel free to correct me.
 

Lysandros

Member
Yeah it's by the author and not the dev. Dev says about the loading speeds in their game, and talks about the future will be about fast SSDs used for more than just fast loading.
Yeah, i know about that. I talk about the author/article and the site. I don't like rewarding this kind of intentional misinformation/distortion by giving them clicks.
 

DJ12

Member
I vaguely remember this analyst being completely off with a broken framecounter in Hitman 3, or was it another person?
Think it was someone else, I only remember these guys doing the outriders demo.

I like the video format to be honest, however they don't know what they are talking about, so it kinda sucks.

The curious thing is ps5 should have lower higher res dynamically but from this video ps5 seems sharper of series X in some spots which is ...bizzarre?
Same as the demo, Series X looked worse and had a higher res, PS5 version was lower res and had better shadows and filtering.
 
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