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[JTCx]

Oh well you might not be aware but running games at higher framerates usually means lower resolutions. It IS done better than PS5 since in many cases that system can't run many games at 120fps AT ALL. On top of that we are talking about a console designed to run at lower resolutions in the first place so not sure what point you are trying to make pointing out the high framerate mode is lower resolution. Bernd Lauert said 'not a problem on a 1080p set'. I'll never understand people talking about beating something, games at 120fps , vs. nothing, significantly fewer games at a 120fps. I guess brand tribalism is strong in some.

What is with you guys and this hate talk? Who is hating the PS5DE? I bought the disc version. But I don't believe the PS5DE offers a better value than the XSS unless you only care about PlayStation 1st party titles. It has fewer features and fewer games at high framerates than a console that is CHEAPER. Biomutant runs at a HIGHER resolution than the PS5! That should never happen. That is not a good value proposition to me. This ignores things like Game pass which many here attack for odd reasons.

People can game on whatever device they choose but it is a fact that the PS5 runs fewer games at 120fps than the XSS. Excuses can be made but that is the truth. It is on Sony to improve the value proposition for their device just like it was on MS. They should earn our patronage.

You sound like one of those dudes whose trying to sell me a pyramid scheme by telling me its not a pyramid scheme.

 

[Thief1987]

You sound like one of those dudes whose trying to sell me a pyramid scheme by telling me its not a pyramid scheme.

Or how fanboy talking nonsense. Oh wait ...

 

[M1chl]

So talking about the tech and the BC capabilities.

Are there any BC games on tbe PS5 that get a resolution boost? I'm not talking about variable PS4 Pro resolution that hits the upper limits more often btw.

It could be an issue that BC has on the PS5. Then when a native version gets made they can increase the resolution past the PS4 Pros.

If it's on System level one hell of a feat, if it's done through patches, then less impressive, but a good thing nonetheless. But I don't fully understand what GoW is doing there. That has been updated already. Maybe to 120hz? Hmm...

 

[elliot5]

If it's on System level one hell of a feat, if it's done through patches, then less impressive, but a good thing nonetheless. But I don't fully understand what GoW is doing there. That has been updated already. Maybe to 120hz? Hmm...

It got patched to hit dynamic 4k 60 instead of being locked to dynamic 4k30. That's all

 

[SlimySnake]

If it's on System level one hell of a feat, if it's done through patches, then less impressive, but a good thing nonetheless. But I don't fully understand what GoW is doing there. That has been updated already. Maybe to 120hz? Hmm...

there are no BC ps4 games that increase resolutions. game boost is basically using those github BC profiles where the ps5 gets access to the full 2.23 ghz of clockspeeds to boost the framerate for all PS4 Pro and base PS4 games with no 30 fps caps.

thats why gow, the last guardian, killzone shadowfall, until dawn and infamous second son run at 60 fps without any patches because those games shipped with an unlocked framerate.

the BC modes cannot increase resolution. the native ps5 profile simply gives them access to the full gpu power and that allows the games to hit a full 60 fps.

Oberon A0.

Gen2 : GFXCLK = 2.000GHz.

Gen1 : GFXCLK = 0.911Ghz.

Gen0 : GFXCLK = 0.800Ghz.

The Gen 2 clocks are the native ps5 clocks which were later upgraded to 2.23 ghz.

 

[SlimySnake]

It got patched to hit dynamic 4k 60 instead of being locked to dynamic 4k30. That's all

close. its 4kcb. not dynamic 4k. the game actually shipped with a 4kcb unlocked 30 fps option which was later patched out. they basically added that mode back in after people realized that the unpatched disc version was running at 4k 60 fps.

 

[elliot5]

close. its 4kcb. not dynamic 4k. the game actually shipped with a 4kcb unlocked 30 fps option which was later patched out. they basically added that mode back in after people realized that the unpatched disc version was running at 4k 60 fps.

Right, thanks for the correction

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I think the PS5 is a nice console with some serious shortcomings. Only time will tell how those shortcomings are addressed as time goes on.

You're drunk.

 

[M1chl]

there are no BC ps4 games that increase resolutions. game boost is basically using those github BC profiles where the ps5 gets access to the full 2.23 ghz of clockspeeds to boost the framerate for all PS4 Pro and base PS4 games with no 30 fps caps.

thats why gow, the last guardian, killzone shadowfall, until dawn and infamous second son run at 60 fps without any patches because those games shipped with an unlocked framerate.

the BC modes cannot increase resolution. the native ps5 profile simply gives them access to the full gpu power and that allows the games to hit a full 60 fps.






The Gen 2 clocks are the native ps5 clocks which were later upgraded to 2.23 ghz.

Very well I though it looked more crisp than PS4 version, when I saw that on screen, but I could be wrong. Such a good looking game.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Is PS4 BC still limiting the RAM games have access to?

Is that why resolutions can’t go up?

 

[Neo Blaster]

The funny thing is that we are six months into this gen and we already have a 1080p game on PS5 in returnal. That's just the price you have to pay for 60 fps in an effects heavy shooter. To get this to run on a 4 tflops card, you are looking at resolutions below 720p.

I remember when the PS3 was eviscerated by DF and pretty much everyone on these boards for coming in below the standard 720p resolution way back in 2006 and 2007. Here we are in 2021, two gens later, and its being celebrated. We live in strange fucking times.

Weren't you the one saying resolution was overrated some posts ago? That reconstruction techniques allowed a better usage of resources dedicated to image quality rather than just pixel density?

 

[SlimySnake]

Weren't you the one saying resolution was overrated some posts ago? That reconstruction techniques allowed a better usage of resources dedicated to image quality rather than just pixel density?

Yes. but there is a difference between taking a base 1080p 60 fps image and reconstructing it vs taking a 640p base image and using 4kcb to take it to 1080p. checkerboarding does not do well at lower resolutions, and cannot be relied upon to take a sub 720p image and making it higher resolution. it's not something series s can rely upon to save its 4 tflops gpu.

 

[SlimySnake]

Very well I though it looked more crisp than PS4 version, when I saw that on screen, but I could be wrong. Such a good looking game.

I havent seen DF or NX gamer talk about this, but here on forums some folks have mentioned how 60 fps actually makes 4kcb games look better than they normally would at 4kcb 30 fps because running at higher resolutions supposedly eliminates some of the ghosting and artifacts we typically associate with checkerboarding.

I only bring this up because that could explain why you thought it looked sharper than the ps4 pro version.

 

[Gurney]

Is PS4 BC still limiting the RAM games have access to?

Is that why resolutions can’t go up?

PS4 games run on PS5 is still a PS4 game, there is no change to the game which means it will still run with the same setting as it would on a PS4.

If a game has a static resolution then the resolution is going to be static when played on PS5 as well.

If the resolution is dynamic it will be dynamic on the PS5 too.

 

[DarkMage619]

You're drunk.

The drunk ones ignore PS5 issues.

 

[Sinthor]

I just don't see the issue with all this noise about 'internal resolutions,' etc. If the output of the game is 4k and looks like 4k or whatever other resolution- bottom line if the image quality is there, then WHO CARES if the machines internally are running at 640x480 or whatever and scaling up? I mean, what the output looks like is what counts, right? I just think we're at the age where in order to put more effects, etc., techniques like this will be used more and more. And as long as the games look great on my HD or 4k/8k HD TV....I could care less what they're doing behind the scenes.

 

[IntentionalPun]

PS4 games run on PS5 is still a PS4 game, there is no change to the game which means it will still run with the same setting as it would on a PS4.

If a game has a static resolution then the resolution is going to be static when played on PS5 as well. They can even detect they are running on a PS5.

If the resolution is dynamic it will be dynamic on the PS5 too.

I’m aware they are PS4 games. They patch them though specifically to have different settings on PS5.

What reason is there they can’t change the resolution settings?

I’m guessing it’s because they aren’t able to access the extra RAM.

 

[M1chl]

I havent seen DF or NX gamer talk about this, but here on forums some folks have mentioned how 60 fps actually makes 4kcb games look better than they normally would at 4kcb 30 fps because running at higher resolutions supposedly eliminates some of the ghosting and artifacts we typically associate with checkerboarding.

I only bring this up because that could explain why you thought it looked sharper than the ps4 pro version.

I think that might be it, good point : ) I think this is the case why VILLAGE is also fine, by being 60FPS.

 

[existensmaximum]

What would Xbox One need emulation for on Xbox Series X?

The PowerPC was emulated for Xbox 360 -> Xbox One emulation, but I don't know what emulation would really be needed for Xbox One games on XSX.

Well, the games are run in a virtual machine so it's virtualization rather than emulation. But that opens up for said enhancements.

(Right?)

 

[IntentionalPun]

Well, the games are run in a virtual machine so it's virtualization rather than emulation. But that opens up for said enhancements.

(Right?)

Yes they’ve used virtualization even for native games since Xbox One.

It’s not emulation though, this is a tech thread after all let’s be accurate

 

[M1chl]

Yes they’ve used virtualization even for native games since Xbox One.

It’s not emulation though, this is a tech thread after all let’s be accurate

It's actually from X360, but on X1 they used their Hyper-V, which is enterprise level shit, so that's why probably no one hacked X1.

Well, the games are run in a virtual machine so it's virtualization rather than emulation. But that opens up for said enhancements.

(Right?)

X360 games on X1+ > emulation, X1 on S|X games are virtual machines, just older ones like running Win 7 on vmware.

 

[existensmaximum]

Yes they’ve used virtualization even for native games since Xbox One.

It’s not emulation though, this is a tech thread after all let’s be accurate

Exactly, which is why I said it's virtualization rather than emulation

 

[Gurney]

I’m aware they are PS4 games. They patch them though specifically to have different settings on PS5.

Only a few games have received a PS5 patch.

What reason is there they can’t change the resolution settings?

They can.

Look at God of War with 4K@30 and 1080p@60 on PS4 Pro, while the PS5 patch offers 4K@30 and 4K@60.

Source

 

[IntentionalPun]

Only a few games have received a PS5 patch.



They can.

Look at God of War with 4K@30 and 1080p@60 on PS4 Pro, while the PS5 patch offers 4K@30 and 4K@60.

Source

We are talking about the patched games obviously lol

And oh, didn’t realize some games did increase resolution… people in this thread were saying that wasn’t possible.

 

[Riky]

If you have a 4k TV that doesn't sound a decent upgrade.

The console is outputting 900p on some games (even without raytracing).

So do PS5 and XSX on Dirt 5 120fps mode, it's about if you want to take framerate over resolution, it's advertised as such. If you purchase a machine that's not advertised as a 4k machine for your 4k TV then you have only yourself to blame.

 

[Riky]

Dirt 5 on Sbox is 576p @ 120 Hz...basically standard definition. Like a PS2.

Since the bigger consoles are only 900p that actually makes a lot of sense. It's not like a PS2 since how many games were 120fps on PS2?

 

[arvfab]

I think the PS5 is a nice console with some serious shortcomings. Only time will tell how those shortcomings are addressed as time goes on.

So for how many more years do you expect them to release old-gen only games, without a dedicated native current-gen version?
Because all the shortcomings you are talking about regard them, as many here are trying to tell you.

Maybe Sony will improve BC in the PS6, maybe not, but BC in general is about old games on new hardware (+this kind of cross-gen period, which we never had before), and while it's good to have improvements on them, the main focus is and should be on new games.

 

[Shmunter]

I havent seen DF or NX gamer talk about this, but here on forums some folks have mentioned how 60 fps actually makes 4kcb games look better than they normally would at 4kcb 30 fps because running at higher resolutions supposedly eliminates some of the ghosting and artifacts we typically associate with checkerboarding.

I only bring this up because that could explain why you thought it looked sharper than the ps4 pro version.

You mean at faster framerate. True, more frames over time to generate samples from.

 

[Physiognomonics]

So talking about the tech and the BC capabilities.

Are there any BC games on tbe PS5 that get a resolution boost? I'm not talking about variable PS4 Pro resolution that hits the upper limits more often btw.

It could be an issue that BC has on the PS5. Then when a native version gets made they can increase the resolution past the PS4 Pros.

Nope. None of them. The only improvement we have seen is uncapped framerate. We didn't even see texture improvement or such. And the loadings are bottlenecked by PS4 as they barely improve on PS5.

 

[DarkMage619]

So for how many more years do you expect them to release old-gen only games, without a dedicated native current-gen version?
Because all the shortcomings you are talking about regard them, as many here are trying to tell you.

Maybe Sony will improve BC in the PS6, maybe not, but BC in general is about old games on new hardware (+this kind of cross-gen period, which we never had before), and while it's good to have improvements on them, the main focus is and should be on new games.

Why not both? Do you think there will never be native Xbox Series games in the future? MS covers both bases. At this point games are still coming out at a regular rate for last gen machines. I expect this to continue till at least 2022. MS said they wanted to blur generational lines and were criticized for it. It doesn't look so bad now.

 

[Panajev2001a]

You sound like one of those dudes whose trying to sell me a pyramid scheme by telling me its not a pyramid scheme.

, well the XSS has many virtues.

 

[dcmk7]

Give me this quote of a main line developer stating the XSS is holding back this generation of gaming sir. If you can give their current gen only title using the consoles features that would be a bonus.


I think the PS5 is a nice console with some serious shortcomings. Only time will tell how those shortcomings are addressed as time goes on.

Well this took all of 5 seconds to find.

Really bummed about this RAM situation on the Series S,” said Axel Gneiting, a principal engine programmer at id Software, in a now deleted tweet. “This isn’t easy to compensate and drags down base spec quite a bit for next-gen multi platform.”

I wonder how you are going to strawman this.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Why not both? Do you think there will never be native Xbox Series games in the future? MS covers both bases. At this point games are still coming out at a regular rate for last gen machines. I expect this to continue till at least 2022. MS said they wanted to blur generational lines and were criticized for it. It doesn't look so bad now.

We can look at how many Xbox Series X|S games they have made/published vs how many Sony has published in the first year or so, I think the tally will be leaning towards the blue camp for that… but we shall see a bit beyond the initial launch window period.

Pushing for generations / generational jumps does not mean not having support for BC or enhanced BC (and quick patches like we have seen now happening for quite a few titles that bring some PS4 classics to 60 FPS or in Xbox’s case managed at the system level with a better BC solution overall…). Also, it does not publishing cross generation or late old generation titles while publishing new ones (look at 25 years of PS history to see evidence of how they handle generational jumps).

Ryan’s comment has been misquoted by a lot of hardcore greens but asp equally reposted in full for non disingenuous people to grasp its meaning by now (hint: DualSense, 3D audio focus, next generation VR… on top of the other features).

 

[Panajev2001a]

Nope. None of them. The only improvement we have seen is uncapped framerate. We didn't even see texture improvement or such. And the loadings are bottlenecked by PS4 as they barely improve on PS5.

Well yes and no… GoT cuts loading times by about 10 seconds (1/3rd for the initial long loading). Sure, Xbox’s virtualised stack can improve BC’s titles loading times more with less effort.

It was complex to develop such virtualisation layer and it has cost them CPU cycles (hence why they always shoot for higher frequencies), but it does have lots of advantages especially emulation wise… even more than on PC IMHO.

 

[arvfab]

At this point games are still coming out at a regular rate for last gen machines. I expect this to continue till at least 2022

Read my question again: how many of them do you expect to not release a dedicated current-gen version?
Only for those there might be "major" differences on how the new-gen consoles handle them.

 

[Zones]

Give me this quote of a main line developer stating the XSS is holding back this generation of gaming sir. If you can give their current gen only title using the consoles features that would be a bonus.

How about two quotes one from an engine programmer and another from a lead engine programmer both from a now Microsoft owned studio?

Id Software Devs Express Their Concerns Over the Xbox Series S’ Hardware Specs; Memory “Situation” Not Easy to Compensate

Several devs at id Software have expressed their concerns over the specs of Microsoft’s Xbox Series S, more specifically, its memory.

wccftech.com

Oh and from the same website you can see a technical producer from a former Microsoft partner calling Series S ‘a trouble’ when it comes to the game development side of the system...

[Update: Clarification] Remedy Developer Expresses Concern Over Xbox Series S' Announcement, Calls It "Trouble!!!"

One developer has come out expressing concern over Microsoft's budget-priced next gen console when it comes to developing power.

wccftech.com

 

[ZywyPL]

I just don't see the issue with all this noise about 'internal resolutions,' etc. If the output of the game is 4k and looks like 4k or whatever other resolution- bottom line if the image quality is there, then WHO CARES if the machines internally are running at 640x480 or whatever and scaling up? I mean, what the output looks like is what counts, right? I just think we're at the age where in order to put more effects, etc., techniques like this will be used more and more. And as long as the games look great on my HD or 4k/8k HD TV....I could care less what they're doing behind the scenes.

That's true, what ultimately matter is the end result, but sadly at least for now native 4K is the only thing that gives you 100% guarantee of razor sharp image, while all the reconstruction techniques, not so much (not to mention possible artifacts, ghosting etc.), the results vary from title to title, with games like Spider-Man or RE8 and their crystal clear image on one end of the spectrum, and games that barely look any better than native QHD which they render at. So again, fingers crossed for AMD's Super Resolution to unify the implementaion/results.

 

[dcmk7]

So do PS5 and XSX on Dirt 5 120fps mode, it's about if you want to take framerate over resolution, it's advertised as such. If you purchase a machine that's not advertised as a 4k machine for your 4k TV then you have only yourself to blame.

Personally, if the title is having to sink under HD levels for 120hz, should probably think about having the mode scrapped.

When a 'next gen' console is hitting sub 600p(!), in 2021, what is the point.. It must be a blurry mess of a game.

Some people are using XSS 120hz mode to score points.. but how can you brag about it when it only works if you're prepared to go back to VHS resolution territory.

 

[Riky]

Personally, if the title is having to sink under HD levels for 120hz, should probably think about having the mode scrapped.

When a 'next gen' console is hitting sub 600p(!), in 2021, what is the point.. It must be a blurry mess of a game.

Some people are using XSS 120hz mode to score points.. but how can you brag about it when it only works if you're prepared to go back to VHS resolution territory.

It's just an option, if you're playing on a monitor it might look fine, you can just go back to 60hz 1440p if you prefer.
Funny how people in some face offs go on about there is more to image quality than resolution when it suits them but just talk about raw figures at other times.

 

[FranXico]

They patch them though specifically to have different settings on PS5.

No, that's not possible with the PS4 SDK. It only allows to scale settings between base and pro models.

What they can do is provide modes with dynamic settings such as unlocked framerate or DRS, which allows the PS5 to max out.

 

[dcmk7]

It's just an option, if you're playing on a monitor it might look fine, you can just go back to 60hz 1440p if you prefer.
Funny how people in some face offs go on about there is more to image quality than resolution when it suits them but just talk about raw figures at other times.

Would you be defending 570p, in 2021, if the console in question was called a PlayStation? I think we both know the answer to that.

A 570p resolution in any mode seems a very, very poor effort. Something that should have been cut.

But instead it's applauded in list wars and heralded that it's an indicator that it's pushing above its weight when in reality, compromised everything to reach a high unstable framerate.

When the bar is set that low and continue to see nothing wrong with it, then it's abundantly clear you're willing to defend anything.

 

[Dodkrake]

I'd love to believe that some users being ignorant of the differences between "Cross-Gen", and "Current-Gen Aware" games, is just that, ignorance.

 

[Riky]

Would you be defending 570p, in 2021, if the console in question was called a PlayStation? I think we both know the answer to that.

A 570p resolution in any mode seems a very, very poor effort. Something that should have been cut.

But instead it's applauded in list wars and heralded that it's an indicator that it's pushing above its weight when in reality, compromised everything to reach a high unstable framerate.

When the bar is set that low and continue to see nothing wrong with it, then it's abundantly clear you're willing to defend anything.

If it wasn't there then you would be crying about Series S not having the same feature set at a lower resolution.....
Some people might prefer that framerate over resolution, let them have the choice, why take it away for no reason.
There is 1440p mode at 60fps for those who don't like it, when the bigger consoles are only at 900p then it's obvious it will be lower on Series S.
Also on the Dirt 5 roadmap is SFS so they may have the mode ready to improve when they get SFS into the engine.

Also the 2.0 patch where Tier 2 VRS was introduced gave the Series consoles a big framerate boost as well as resolution boost, Series S now runs 648p-1080p in 120fps mode.

 

[dcmk7]

If it wasn't there then you would be crying about Series S not having the same feature set at a lower resolution.....
Some people might prefer that framerate over resolution, let them have the choice, why take it away for no reason.
There is 1440p mode at 60fps for those who don't like it, when the bigger consoles are only at 900p then it's obvious it will be lower on Series S.
Also on the Dirt 5 roadmap is SFS so they may have the mode ready to improve when they get SFS into the engine.

The feature shouldn't be there, if it's going to run that badly, that's the point.

Why do you laugh your ass off at any tiny (cherry picked) resolution drops on PS5 but defend VHS like resolutions?

It's not even a solid 120hz experience as well. It's highly unstable as well as being a blurry mess, what part of that is good?

I can't find the Dirt 5 roadmap, and you didn't link it, I'll just assume you've just twisted another quote beyond recognition.
..I'm not quite sure what that proves anyway, guessing this is a 'soon' placeholder.

 

[Riky]

The feature shouldn't be there, if it's going to run that badly, that's the point.

Why do you laugh your ass off at any tiny (cherry picked) resolution drops on PS5 but defend VHS like resolutions?

It's not even a solid 120hz experience as well. It's highly unstable as well as being a blurry mess, what part of that is good?

I can't find the Dirt 5 roadmap, and you didn't link it, I'll just assume you've just twisted another quote beyond recognition.
..I'm not quite sure what that proves anyway, guessing this is a 'soon' placeholder.

It was quoted by the Dev, when talking about the introduction of VRS, SFS was later.
Also like I said your figures are wrong, it's 648p to 1080p and the 120hz mode ran as well as PS5, difference being Series S supports VRR so would be smoother.

There's the quote , nothing twisted at all.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Well this took all of 5 seconds to find.



I wonder how you are going to strawman this.

People here love posting that tweet over and over again. Just a reminder that id software wanted 64 GB of RAM in the new consoles. Their engine eats up all the available RAM, no matter how much it actually needs. Yet, Doom Eternal runs perfectly fine on a graphics card with 4 GB of VRAM.

It's just hyperbole from a dev who doesn't like any memory constraints at all. Series S is a beast

 

[MasterCornholio]

I think the PS5 is a nice console with some serious shortcomings. Only time will tell how those shortcomings are addressed as time goes on.

Aww you couldn't do it without shitting on the system.

Console breaking shortcomings really?

I know it has some flaws but I wouldn't call it serious. Something like a massive hardware failure rate is but coil whine and serviceable BC isn't.

 

[thewire]

in what deluded reality is the series s a beast? If the ps5 is just a nice console with serious issues than why are all the best showcases for next gen on ps5 & not the series consoles? Why is the medium, the only next gen game on the series consoles, running at 900p 30fps? Whilst rachets wrecks anything Xbox has ever even shown for the series consoles? Will Xbox even have anything that competes with rachet this e3? Cause rachet is just an early gen example of ps5 tech, it ain’t maxing out the ps5 & Sony will top rachet at their next presentation. What will be the narrative then?

 

[Bernd Lauert]

in what deluded reality is the series s a beast? If the ps5 is just a nice console with serious issues than why are all the best showcases for next gen on ps5 & not the series consoles? Why is the medium, the only next gen game on the series consoles, running at 900p 30fps? Whilst rachets wrecks anything Xbox has ever even shown for the series consoles? Will Xbox even have anything that competes with rachet this e3? Cause rachet is just an early gen example of ps5 tech, it ain’t maxing out the ps5 & Sony will top rachet at their next presentation. What will be the narrative then?

Calm down, warrior. Your console is gonna be fine.

 

[dcmk7]

It was quoted by the Dev, when talking about the introduction of VRS, SFS was later.
Also like I said your figures are wrong, it's 648p to 1080p and the 120hz mode ran as well as PS5, difference being Series S supports VRR so would be smoother.

You haven't attached the quote or link.

Series S is for people with 1080p TVs and gamers on a budget (I keep hearing) and now they need a VRR compatible TV to make the framerate reasonable? Despite the resolution tanking to obscenely low levels.

The main gaming mode is already a stripped back, compromised version, missing graphical effects.

When or where does the next gen experience appear?

It's difficult to wonder why MS made the decision they did choosing this over a XSX Digital SKU.

If they did, it would almost certainly be sold out in the UK right now. It would be difficult to compete against. I'm sure you'll agree.

It has just left a gap in the market, leaving just the PS5DE as the entry point for consoles which can run next gen versions of games without caveats. Fully future-proofed, runs 120hz better. And 4k gaming. And a lot more harddrive space to boot.

It's a shame Sony don't/can't make more of them ATM.