Support NeoGAF

[Daingurse]

Lol

They should seriously start putting their games on iOS. Love to play some Pokemon on my tablet.

They could at least put some old Pokemon games on IOS , hell 3DS still doesn't have any of the Gameboy games right? Money left on the table.

 

[RedSwirl]

I feel like the only talk of an Iwata resignation has been on GAF, and now people act like it's an inevitability or something. Outside forums though there has really been absolutely zero indication Iwata won't be head of Nintendo for the foreseeable future.

 

[Papacheeks]

I definitely disagree with this. There were lots of small innovations in level design in Mario 3D World, but the biggest innovation was really the 4 player multiplayer, that as far as I know, never have been done in a 3D plattformer before. Cant really get much more innovative than that can it?

Ratchet and Clank All-4-One says hi.

 

[Alex]

DD games absolutely count... when they're good. Problem is Nintendo's eShop games are almost never good and they're certainly not ambitious. I've gotten more than enough burns from blind buys now that I will be waiting for general word of mouth before I ever nibble on anything that doesn't leap off the page, because the brand name doesn't inspire quality in this sector.

There are so many ambitious and impressive and genuinely fantastic indie games raining down as of late, that it's such a shame that Nintendo can't seem to be bothered to try any harder, because I feel like the model would suit them well if they could stop littering it with cheap, half-assed trinkets.

 

[John Harker]

I feel like the only talk of an Iwata resignation has been on GAF, and now people act like it's an inevitability or something. Outside forums though there has really been absolutely zero indication Iwata won't be head of Nintendo for the foreseeable future.

I hope he stays! He's great.

And I probably have more first hand experience than most arm chair GAF analysts.

 

[Morfeo]

Ratchet and Clank All-4-One says hi.

I admit I didnt know about this. Did it work well? Was it fun to play? Nintendo definitely got it right in SM3DW, but knowing Insomniac, I guess they would in All-4-One as well?

 

[Morfeo]

DD games absolutely count... when they're good. Problem is Nintendo's eShop games are almost never good and they're certainly not ambitious. I've gotten more than enough burns from blind buys now that I will be waiting for general word of mouth before I ever nibble on anything that doesn't leap off the page, because the brand name doesn't inspire quality in this sector.

There are so many ambitious and impressive and genuinely fantastic indie games raining down as of late, that it's such a shame that Nintendo can't seem to be bothered to try any harder, because I feel like the model would suit them well if they could stop littering it with cheap, half-assed trinkets.

Really? I think most of Nintendos eshop games are really great actually. They are more often than not a bit expensive, but mostly well worth the price, at least in my opinion.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Next systems:

HDS
HDS TV

 

[Freezie KO]

Then what exactly are you asking here? That they fill every genre/experience hole by putting their teams behind multiple new IP projects?
Who would develop what people expect from Nintendo systems; a great Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Smash, etc? Cuz I'm sure you're not proposing that they drop their signature brands all together, right?

I'm not suggesting they get rid of their core franchises.

But it's this precise discussion that cuts to the heart of why I'm so critical of Iwata. Nintendo doesn't have any substantial third-party support. So yeah, Nintendo has to be a lot more desirable with their first-party software. They're in this alone.

This doesn't necessarily mean they have to make an FPS, but they have to make new enticing properties by themselves that will draw people to the platform. They could, in theory, create their own niche as they did with new software like Wii Sports. Unfortunately, for them, that crowd is gone, and Nintendo has stopped innovating with their core software.

The last really ambitious new property was Kid Icarus Uprising, and this thread is about Wii U. And if Nintendo wants a share of the Western audience that is actually putting money into consoles, then they have to fill up the holes that Sony and MS cover as well.

Is that fair to Nintendo? Well, if we're talking about business, yes. It's entirely on them because a history of their own bad decisions is why they don't have third-party support. So while a third party game like Titanfall can make a big splash as a new experience on XBox, you're not going to ever see that on Wii U. Nintendo has to make up the difference, and, as you nicely put it, fill in the holes.

Iwata could've recognized this and compensated for this through rapid expansion (especially during the Wii boom years) and trying to gain third-parties, but they didn't. And now, they aren't offering new experiences.

Sony not giving a shit about Puppetteer and Tearaway doesn't change the fact that these are considered excellent first party, new IP releases.
Often listed as reasons to purchase those systems too, btw.

Well if we're talking about what's an "excellent first-party new IP", I actually like PushMo. Dillon's, Sakura, and Steel Diver are merely decent games. And it's also worth mentioning that of the four new IP you mentioned (Dillon, Sakura, Steel Diver, and W101), three of them are not on Wii U, which is the primary subject of this thread. 3DS is obviously doing better in its software offerings.

But anyway, you're right that prestige projects are worthwhile as they stimulate the core. MGM learned this early on in the film business. But Dillon's Rolling Western with a 65 on Metacritic isn't a prestige project. It's Nintendo throwing shit up and hoping that it will get people used to buying stuff digitally, so they get better margins on software.

If we're talking business, then Nintendo needs to create ambitious, fully-featured, platform-defining games that are new experiences and simply can't be gotten on past platforms or even 3DS (like NSMB, 3DL/W, Mario Kart, Smash Bros, Donkey Kong Country, etc etc). New experiences and the promise of new experiences are why people buy platforms.

They are, but eshop games don't count.
That we know of, X seems to be a new IP. And its first party. And it looks ambitious.
Who knows what else they have in development.

X does look new. But mentioning that game is emblematic of the problem. You're naming a game that is so far in the future, it doesn't even have a release date. And then it's "Who knows what else?" Well, consumers shouldn't have to guess. Instead, they'll just continue passing on the platform. That's a huge problem for Nintendo.

And what about people (like me) that don't like RPGs and wouldn't buy X? Then, Nintendo goes a whole year without having a new experience on their platform? That's why they need more than just 2 or 3 games a year like that.

Which goes back to my critique of the lack of expansion. (and it's also why I support Nintendo eventually going with a unified software platform across hardware or a hybrid where they can consolidate their resources)

You know what I meant. More changes have been done between 64, Sunshine, Galaxy and 3D World that you see in entire franchises like Uncharted, Resistence, Killzone, InFamous, etc...

But there's not more changes between 3D Land and 3D World. That's about a Call of Duty-level jump. And I know because I played both games.

Yes but your proposal of nintendo doing everything doesn't even sound remotely achieveble so what exactly is being argued here?

I'm assessing the ways that Iwata has fucked up.

One of those ways is putting Nintendo into a position where they have to do everything themselves because they can't rely on outside third-parties nor a bunch of new second parties nor expanded internal studios to compensate. They don't even have Rare to dig them out of this. Instead, they just sat on the Wii money and watched development costs and requirements skyrocket. It's a total lack of foresight for a trend that began in 2005.

I get it, you don't care about their new IPs and apparently eshop stuff doesn't cut it, but they are still new IPs being released while developing what they are known and expected to do with recognizable brands.

Personally, I do care. PushMo is fun as a one-gameplay-mechanic puzzle game. But this thread is more specifically about business and where the company should go. They cannot rely on PushMo as their new experience to sell systems.

Sony invested in small digital experiences, but they also went big. They offered new experiences on a grand scale, and it put them in a fantastic position (as per the thread title) to take on the next generation. Nintendo invested only in a few new digital side-projects and let their core franchises stagnate, particularly on home console. And while that happened, they didn't offer much in the way of new experiences beyond Nintendo Land as a weak offering towards an audience that's too busy playing PopStar! on iOS to care.

--

I hope he stays! He's great.

And I probably have more first hand experience than most arm chair GAF analysts.

John Harker
Completely full of experience

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Nintendo should flip the script on the Wii U. Instead of a set top box beaming games to the game pad, they should have made a child friendly tablet that can beam games to an optional set top box to play on the TV. I feel like there is a price point where Nintendo can reach all of these parents who don't want to hand over their $600 iPad to their eight year old. I think Nintendo has already realized this, but half measures like the 2DS are not enough.

Combine their two product lines, and change it to a tablet form factor.

I don't know if this would work.

 

[Ivan el Trolazo]

wii u as portable tablet with internal bluray? and it has to send video signal over wifi??? main problem of nintendo "HDS TV" is batteries not evolving (cheapen) as fast as circuits

 

[TheGreyHulk]

The plan for the next handheld/console. Business as usual. They always accept the good and the bad. That's how they roll.

 

[Shmuely Bully]

It seems like there is an overly defensive reaction much of the time when people criticize Nintendo or Iwata. I certainly understand it, people spend a lot of time and money on their consoles and when you do that you naturally tend to develop some affection for the console at a minimum, if not the company that made them too. What needs to be understood though is that this isn't about you, or how you individually feel about Nintendo, it's about where they are, where they're headed, and how they need to change course to get where they need to be. Nintendo right now has a very bad reputation that they're-for lack of better terms-old, outdated, and in denial. That their systems aren't actually for 'serious' gamers.

It's a reputation that they're taken a long time to develop and it won't change overnight, but they should be doing everything that they can to change it because perception has a way of becoming reality. They don't need to ditch everything that makes their current fanbase like them to do it either. I can't speak for everyone, but I have no actual dislike for Nintendo like I do Microsoft, I'm just frustrated and disappointed in what they have been offering and I suspect that quite a few people who used to buy their systems feel the same way. Nintendo made a conscious choice with the DS and the Wii to compete by not competing and it worked out great initially, but you can't count on that working indefinitely and they need to address the big issues that are holding them back and keeping them from their full potential as a company and developer. Specifically:

1. They absolutely must take online seriously and provide a compelling alternative to what Sony and Microsoft are offering. This may not be their area of expertise: they need to develop or acquire that expertise. When your service is the only free one and people still don't care you have a big problem. This doesn't mean ditch local multiplayer, it means provide the OPTION by creating a high quality, flexible, and intuitive online multi-player service.

2. They have to compete in hardware again. Multiplatform games have become more and more common with each new generation as budgets have gone up and if you've got the worst versions of them all you're going to lose out. Leaving aside the argument about whether this is good or not, don't treat it as a zero sum game where better graphics==worse games. It's not.

3. They need to ditch exotic hardware, proprietary media, and anything else they possibly can that makes life difficult or expensive for the users and developers of their systems. Proprietary stuff is addictive for companies, it means you're the sole supplier and you can charge whatever you want. Nintendo can't anymore and it only makes users and developers resent the unnecessary cost and inefficiencies it introduces.

4. They need to give Mario and friends a rest. That doesn't mean stopping development, it means letting games stand on their own merits without feeling the need to tie them into an existing franchise where it doesn't make sense. Doing so had made Nintendo consoles into the Mario alternative and they need to be known for offering more. The NES and SNES had a handful of real Mario games and didn't suffer for it (in fact the scarcity arguably made them more appealing), but mid-way through the N64 they went nuts and started advertising every spinoff imaginable as a Mario game and pumping out mainline games at a seemingly ever increasing rate.

The cost of this was that they either stopped making or people stopped noticing the Kirbies, F-Zeroes, Donkey Kongs, Star Foxes, Fire Emblems, and Metroids (with some exceptions) and instead began hearing about Mario Party, Tennis, Baseball, Golf, Bowling, Basketball, and RPGs. Many of these games were good or even excellent, but here is the thing: it almost doesn't matter because it makes Nintendo look creatively bankrupt to many or most of those who haven't already bought in.

Sony has made its fortune with the Playstation brand by developing an enormous number of games in almost all every genre, most of which have absolutely nothing to do with each other, and most of which aren't very long-lived. Many of these are good or even great, many are not, but it ultimately doesn't matter because the breadth of what is on offer is so broad that it's almost guaranteed SOMETHING they have will appeal to a person and that collectively they will appeal to a very wide audience. By making new universes to explore on a regular basis they keep any given one from growing too stale.

Microsoft at its best does the same thing and there is no reason why Nintendo can't be known for doing that again like they used to be. It doesn't mean ditching Mario or Zelda, or any other given franchise they have now, but it does mean putting their other properties front and center early and often and doing everything in their power to successfully launch new ones on a regular basis that appeal to an audience their existing franchises don't. It seems crazy to say this after the Wii, but in the home console market right now Nintendo's offerings are extremely deep, but extremely narrow in their appeal and without changing this the rest almost doesn't matter.

 

[TDLink]

Iwata sort of fucked that up twice in a row now though hasn't he, post Yamauchi. Yamauchi certainly fucked third party relations, no doubt. What I quoted was talking about disassembling NOA if you can see there. Goldeneye -> Perfect Dark -> Halo is a pretty damning indication of where that went and the consequences its had for Nintendo's home console perception.

I agree that was terrible for Nintendo's third party relations but like you just agreed, Iwata had nothing to do with that. Shit was already fucked by time Gamecube launched with most of the third parties and by time that gen was over (essentially when Iwata was just starting out) it was all toast. Yamauchi did all that. It was awful and Nintendo's never recovered those third party relations. Is it Iwata's fault that old relationships haven't been reforged and new ones kindled? To an extent, yes. But is it his fault that they were lost in the first place? Absolutely not.

And to Iwata's credit, Nintendo has grown closer with at least a few Japanese publishers like Square during his time as CEO, which is one of the major third parties Yamauchi shit all over. I think the main problem with the few third parties he has developed better relationships with is that they are all Japan focused. Outside of some second party development outsourcing like Next Level and Monster Iwata has not made a good effort to kindle new Western relations, especially with the big players.

Regarding Yamauchi's policy of keep it cheap and affordable...I don't think Iwata has fucked up at all there. He has continued that tradition, for good or ill. DS, Wii, 3DS, and Wii U have all been cheap and affordable. So much so that they are technologically weaker than their closest direct competitors. By and large it has worked out for them. With Wii U it currently isn't. If people are buying a PS4 at $400 or XBONE at $500 though than Wii U's price of $300 really isn't the main issue. Sure, more would buy in if it was even lower but there are other more prevalent reasons for why the system has failed to move.

 

[x-Lundz-x]

Regardless of what anyone else thinks I don't think Nintendo can suffer through another WiiU failure and just be fine. They better design a console customers and developers both want and get it out sooner rather than later.

 

[Anth0ny]

I agree that was terrible for Nintendo's third party relations but like you just agreed, Iwata had nothing to do with that. Shit was already fucked by time Gamecube launched with most of the third parties and by time that gen was over (essentially when Iwata was just starting out) it was all toast. Yamauchi did all that. It was awful and Nintendo's never recovered those third party relations. Is it Iwata's fault that old relationships haven't been reforged and new ones kindled? To an extent, yes. But is it his fault that they were lost in the first place? Absolutely not.

And to Iwata's credit, Nintendo has grown closer with at least a few Japanese publishers like Square during his time as CEO, which is one of the major third parties Yamauchi shit all over. I think the main problem with the few third parties he has developed better relationships with is that they are all Japan focused. Outside of some second party development outsourcing like Next Level and Monster Iwata has not made a good effort to kindle new Western relations, especially with the big players.

Regarding Yamauchi's policy of keep it cheap and affordable...I don't think Iwata has fucked up at all there. He has continued that tradition, for good or ill. DS, Wii, 3DS, and Wii U have all been cheap and affordable. So much so that they are technologically weaker than their closest direct competitors. By and large it has worked out for them. With Wii U it currently isn't. If people are buying a PS4 at $400 or XBONE at $500 though than Wii U's price of $300 really isn't the main issue. Sure, more would buy in if it was even lower but there are other more prevalent reasons for why the system has failed to move.

On top of this, Iwata himself was the one who completely killed NOA Production:

From 1990-2000. Nintendo of America had production and management autonomy from Japan. NOA basically culminated its own production team, along a few co-designers, and started funding and producing games with developers.

DMA Design: Uni Racers, Body Harvest (Nintendo dropped it in 1997, Midway took it)
Angel Studios: Ken Griffey Baseball, Buggie Boogie (canceled)
Bits Studios: Warlocked, Riqa (canceled)
Rare: Donkey Kong Country, Killer Instinct, Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark
Software Creations: Ken Griffey Baseball, Tin Star
Silicon Knights: Eternal Darkness (N64 version)
Left Field Productions: Kobey Bryant in NBA Courtside, Excitebike 64
Looking Glass Studio: Mini Racers (canceled)
Mass Media: Star Craft 64
H20: Tetrisphere
Saffire Corp: Nester's Funky Bowling, James Bond 007
Midway: Cruisn Series

Nintendo of America also procured the Ken Griffey and MLBPA license, NHL License, Kobe Bryant and NBA license, PGA license, Disney license, James Bond license, StarCraft license. Star Wars Episode I license. They were producing their own first-party games separate from Nintendo of Japan.

That all changed when Iwata transitioned from Global Marketing Chief to President. NOA Production was killed, and Nintendo of Japan's SPD Department took over all Western development (Star Fox Adventures, Geist, Eternal Darkness GC).

Henry Sterchi, Brian Ullrich, Ken Lobb, Ed Ridgeway, Jeff Hutt, Faran Thomason, and the whole crew left NOA to Microsoft and other developers. Since then, we've seen the Western model we have today. Western developers reporting directly to Japanese management, and pretty much making B/C sequels to Nintendo IPs.

Iwata's strategy is obviously very Japanese centric, so while he was quick to rekindle relationships with Japanese third parties, he has shown zero effort in rekindling/creating relationships with Western third parties.

Which is kinda a fucking problem since the biggest games in the world are Western third party games.

 

[TDLink]

On top of this, Iwata himself was the one who completely killed NOA Production:



Iwata's strategy is obviously very Japanese centric, so while he was quick to rekindle relationships with Japanese third parties, he has shown zero effort in rekindling/creating relationships with Western third parties.

Which is kinda a fucking problem since the biggest games in the world are Western third party games.

No actually I disagree here. That post was a reply to a post that replied to another post of mine arguing about this very post:

I like how you're picking and choosing what is and isn't attributed to Iwata and Yamauchi. The poor third party relations that you quoted from Shikamaru Ninja have little to nothing to do with Iwata. Even the dates don't line up if you look at them. Iwata didn't become president until 2004 so how was he involved with distancing from third parties starting in 2000? No, that was all Yamauchi who started stupid grudges because of "disloyal" third parties who dared to develop for Playstation.

On the flip side, yes Iwata did have a hand in DS and Wii but I still believe they were primarily Iwata's babies. With Wii specifically Yamauchi's major input to Iwata was to keep it cheap and affordable, which he did. And that, to an extent, is still true of the products they release today.

 

[Effect]

On top of this, Iwata himself was the one who completely killed NOA Production:



Iwata's strategy is obviously very Japanese centric, so while he was quick to rekindle relationships with Japanese third parties, he has shown zero effort in rekindling/creating relationships with Western third parties.

Which is kinda a fucking problem since the biggest games in the world are Western third party games.

This will continue to be a problem going forward as well. I think you can judge if Nintendo is really serious about attempting to turn things around for the Wii U or their home console business in general going forward by how they act on this front in the coming weeks and at the very least by E3. If there is nothing on the western side be it attempts to get new games out of western studios (none of the "You'll have to ask <insert studio>" Reggie has no choice but to give when questioned) or to rekindle western development via NoA with NST, Retro, etc and fill holes themselves with their own Nintendo spin then that's it. Things will just get worse and they might as well just go hand held only. However problems exist with that as well. There is no western support their either.

Iwata has to change his way of thinking if things are to change for the better. That means accepting a game or a series of games not being accepted or successful in Japan but instead everywhere else. It feels like they can't. For example instead of pushing Metriod Prime as it seemingly appealed more to the west (with Halo and Call of Duty exploding in popularity) they tried to make the franchise more accepted by Japan and we get Other M. Which only pissed off fans. Seeing the difference in sales and reaction between Wind Wake and Twilight Princess and how more popular Zelda is in the west they make Skyward Sword while tossing in anime tropes! Now I liked Skyward Sword but that was dumb in a industry where Oblivion, Skyrim, The Witcher, etc exist. Fans spoke with their wallet as to what styled they wanted more and it was ignored. That's part of the crap that needs to stop.

 

[Mik317]

At the very least, I think people should give them until e3 (or the "major" direct) to see if there is anything else planned. I mean, do you really think Nintendo has nothing but Kirby and Yoshi for the 3DS?

I mean, no one is flipping out because all we know the PS4 has in terms of 1st party game is Infamou, Uncharted 4, Driveclub and the Order (or they shouldn't).

I am sure they have something that we don't know of out of the FDK, MK, and Smash trio too. (Although if it is "just" Zelda and something like Metroid...that may not be what people want of course..too safe in a sense).

 

[EmptySpace]

they have $8 billion in cash. they're not doomed. nowhere near that. they have franchises. pokemon, mario, zelda, etc.

 

[RealityPales]

Tonight, I decided the WiiU needs live-streaming with camera support. After all, it's why the PS4 is in the lead...

Right?

 

[OzPinoy]

The same as usual. Nintendo market cap is bigger than Sony. Sony is in worster trouble since they are a larger company that doesn't just focus on gaming alone.

 

[StoopKid]

they have $8 billion in cash. they're not doomed. nowhere near that. they have franchises. pokemon, mario, zelda, etc.

I don't think that's true.

 

[_Clash_]

Nintendo Tablet as their 3d pillar. nexus 7 form factor with a dpad, 4 buttons and a new high tech indented analog stick.


Reinvest in the one, holy Nintendo future, maybe pick up a stray studio or 5 capable of high quality content.

Nintendo need to reinvest in themselves is my general thought and I suspect they will start converging their titles to an extent, meaning games will be playable across their hardware line.

the other possibility is to team up with Apple.For example Apple TV+ Wii U combined unit or aim a box at the high end that would compliment the Wii line/ tablet/ 3DS.

 

[rjinaz]

they have $8 billion in cash. they're not doomed. nowhere near that. they have franchises. pokemon, mario, zelda, etc.

Discussing the reality that the Wii U is struggling and also the possibility of it ultimately failing does not equate to "Nintendo is Doomed!" I don't remember the last time I saw somebody say Nintendo was doomed outside of those defending Nintendo and claiming others are saying it, or as an obvious jest. I wish people would stop using it as a way to arbitrarily dismiss the problems Nintendo is facing with the Wii U, as some kind of extremist viewpoint.

 

[Freezie KO]

I mean, no one is flipping out because all we know the PS4 has in terms of 1st party game is Infamou, Uncharted 4, Driveclub and the Order (or they shouldn't).

No one freaks out because PS4 is going to get relevant third-party games to support them in between first-party titles.

--

they have $8 billion in cash. they're not doomed. nowhere near that. they have franchises. pokemon, mario, zelda, etc.

I got $8 billion in cash. I got franchises. Pokemon. Mario. Zelda. I got fuckin' Cranky Kong on my fuckin' boxer shorts. Look at all my shit!

 

[Metallix87]

I got $8 billion in cash. I got franchises. Pokemon. Mario. Zelda. I got fuckin' Cranky Kong on my fuckin' boxer shorts. Look at all my shit!

What, exactly, is the point of a post like this?

 

[Log4Girlz]

So after a year, what's the attach rate of the Wii U?

 

[Mik317]

Discussing the reality that the Wii U is struggling and also the possibility of it ultimately failing does not equate to "Nintendo is Doomed!" I don't remember the last time I saw somebody say Nintendo was doomed outside of those defending Nintendo and claiming others are saying it, or as an obvious jest. I wish people would stop using it as a way to arbitrarily dismiss the problems Nintendo is facing with the Wii U, as some kind of extremist viewpoint.

You have to admit that with the regularity these threads have popped up, one would think that it was truly the end of the line.

If no one truly thinks Nintendo am doomed, then what is with the idea of killing the Wii U now or going third party as constant ideas of what they should do right away?

The Wii U is probably never going to be considered a success (hell some people see the 3DS as a failure ) and honestly all Nintendo can do is throw all the biggins at it while hopefully keeping it afloat for 2-3 more years until the next system. Also use this time to go after some indies, those left behind, and become the landing spot of some niche stuff in hopes that something from this easy to get group becomes something big (I think a lot of japanese devs will be left behind even more...this is where Nintendo can get some freebies). That is what they should do...no need to go crazy right away, killing shit, and digging yourself a bigger hole.

I personally think that the most common ideas are in fact doomsday ideas. These are last ditch effort type deals. The Hybrid only makes sense, if the company is dying to me. Killing off a source of income in hopes that the hybrid catches on is something a desperate company does. It is the kitchen sink idea. One can justly argue that keeping the Wii U afloat is losing them money and getting rid of it and focusing on one is best and yes I get it, however..I still think you give a dedicated console another goal. A solid selling console and a solid selling handheld, is probably better for Nintendo than just one solid selling system. So why not give that a go. Third party is definitely an endgame type move. And going toe to toe with Sony and MS, may be too.

So with those ideas constantly popping up, you tend to get the idea that a lot of dudes in fact do think Nintendo is at the end of their rope. The Wii U is probably not salvagable and someone has to pay for that. Be it Iwata or whoever and yest hey need a change in philosophy for sure. But with these threads, I feel like people go to extreme at times. Like you said the Wii U is doomed not the company, then any move the company makes shouldn't be a reactionary, all or nothing type move...not yet at least.

 

[Mik317]

No one freaks out because PS4 is going to get relevant third-party games to support them in between first-party titles.

--



I got $8 billion in cash. I got franchises. Pokemon. Mario. Zelda. I got fuckin' Cranky Kong on my fuckin' boxer shorts. Look at all my shit!

You missed my main point. The point is that we have no clue what else they have planned for the year yet...Just like it would be silly to shit on Sony for only have 4 games for the rest of the year.

 

[Freezie KO]

What, exactly, is the point of a post like this?

Pop culture reference. Ignore at will.

--

You missed my main point. The point is that we have no clue what else they have planned for the year yet...Just like it would be silly to shit on Sony for only have 4 games for the rest of the year.

I understand that. But your point presumes that it's an equal supposition to assume the PS4 will have a full line-up versus the Wii U. Both assumptions are not equally valid.

I am saying it's more fair to assume that the Wii U will not have a robust software line-up because it doesn't have the support of third parties. And similarly, it makes less sense to criticize Sony even if they do only have four games, because they didn't create a scenario in which they have to entirely support their own platform.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Iwata hasn't done much wrong?

• He lacked the foresight to prepare for HD development, causing huge problems with Wii U delays.
• He never expanded the business sufficiently to cover the droughts that have existed since the N64.
• Third party support has only gotten worse since he's taken over.
• He neglected the importance of online gameplay and building an online community until 2013, which is something a marketing student could've told him in 2005.
• He shut down the autonomy of the Western arm of the company and burned bridges with Western third parties at precisely the moment the West became far-and-away the largest influence and market for home consoles.
• He lacked the foresight to properly maintain the Wii's casual audience and wasn't able to see that the bubble was about to burst, even after he let the thing die for 2 years with little-to-no software.
• He grossly overestimated the appeal of the 3DS and greenlit a grotesque $250 tag that forced them to slash prices and issue an unprecedented "Ambassador" program for the first time in their history.
• He bet on 3D as a system-seller. It wasn't.
• He never learned from the potential brand confusion of the 3DS's early days and made the same mistakes with the Wii U's name.
• He greenlit the GamePad as the centerpiece of his console without a single compelling gameplay concept for it.
• The software strategy has only become more safe and stagnant with three NSMB games in 2 years, constant remakes, disappointing some people with 3D Land Part II, disappointing others with more Donkey Kong, and turning half their output into minigame collections, harming the one thing that Nintendo still had goodwill for: its games.

Nintendo sells a product. It's wonderful that you don't think the product is poor, but the larger market does.



They almost always innovate gameplay? 3D World doesn't. WindWaker HD doesn't. NSMB doesn't. NSLU doesn't. Wii Fit + doesn't. Wii Sports HD doesn't. Game and Wario doesn't. Wii Party U doesn't. Nintendo Land... sorta does in a mini-game tech demo way. And as good as it is, Pikmin 3 really doesn't either.

There was plenty of PS3 angst during it's struggles, lets not play revisionist here. Also, the PS3 at it's worst is a water mark the Wii U isn't even within sight of. To cap off those problems, the Wii U is not a contemporary to the PS4 and XB1, where all 3rd party content will be focused, so it isn't even going to build a library by proxy like the PS3 did.


I think GAF is generally pretty dumb when it comes to console lifespans. Consider the Vita and constant claims that it is "dead". You could have said the same for the PSP early in it's life but after a long grind Sony made a niche for it. The Wii U has a place in the industry as Nintendo's games will always have relevance, but to act like Iwata didn't make a massive error with the Wii U is being far too kind to the single biggest fuck up in Nintendo history, including the Virtual Boy.

Once upon a time a failure this bad got you ran over on a Japanese freeway. Getting fired is comparatively kind.


Don't lump the DS, which had a near decade long segment dominance, with the Wii's few year flash in the pan. The DS was right in the Nintendo sweet spot of handheld titles with a family friendly and gameplay first focus. Synergy at it's finest with an extremely competitive MSRP. The Wii caught a blue ocean of casuals who've now all moved on to tablets and smartphones. Hence why the DS' successor is doing well even after a sluggish start and why the Wii's successor is finishing one of the worst first years in industry history.


Iwata shouldn't be written off, but after breaking the primary directive of Nintendo hardware design (never lose money on the hardware) not once but twice in quick succession, with one of those a sales nightmare, he should be taken to task. This isn't Yamauchi, the man who built the company from the ground up. He doesn't get that kind of slack.

Lucking into the Wii and hanging on to handheld supremacy is nice, but it shows very little ability to fix what ailed Nintendo during the N64 and GC eras. Just caught a break thanks to a new controller that became a fad and absurdly expensive new competition.


I'd argue that this largely stems from hardcore Nintendo fans denying that there is a problem and/or getting extremely defensive by responding to all the half assed/troll posts instead of fostering legitimate discussion as the supposedly most knowledgeable parties in the thread.

Instead of saying "why you guys always having this same shitty discussion?" why not do something about it and bring a legitimately new viewpoint to the equation, or find someone else's view you like and trumpet that instead of feeling like you need to defend a company and CEO against criticism.


And those seeds where planted far too late, with far too little knowledge about how to adequately cultivate them. Nintendo didn't know what they were stepping into with HD development. They can restructure all they want, it isn't going to suddenly make them one of the only Japanese software companies that knows what the hell to do with eight figure budgets and HD art assets. This is why Sony shipped the head of Sony Santa Monica over to Japan, to overhaul the culture. How much change can Nintendo orchestrate with the same guard running the ship unquestioned?


3rd parties didn't flock to the insane growth on the Wii because no one knew how to get that audience to by anything more than Just Dance, Guitar Hero, and Wii Sports/Fit/etc..

Why deliver a new core title to an audience that all metrics show is comprised mostly of casual gamers? That isn't a good way to sell software. This is the same reason why kid friendly products and party games were focused on the Wii and not the PS3/360, or why kid friendly products always have a home on Nintendo handhelds. Don't blame 3rd parties for the fact that kids have crap taste and therefore will guy licensed junk regardless of quality over far better less recognizable brands.


That ship has sailed. Steam is an open market for indies. Sony is throwing deals around left and right that don't require exclusivity. How exactly is Nintendo going to attract meaningful exclusive content from indie channels when those same indies could go to PC and/or PS4 and get to 1. own their IP and 2. publish on other platforms at their leisure? Nintendo missed that boat, now they'll have to submit to the market standards (namely conditions 1 and 2 above) and have shown no real willingness to do so.


Except both Capcom and Konami have shown very little ability to still make those games. Consider the digital download Mega Man games from Capcom last generation. They were punishingly hard to make up for a lack of gameplay innovation. The talent at those studios is either now tied up with big budget PS4/XB1/PC titles (Kojima) or has left to do their own thing (Kamiya/Mikami/Inafune). Igarashi is probably still kicking around Konami but they've found a multi-million formula for Castlevania on the ornate presentation boxes so I doubt they'll pass that up for more Igavanias with their six figure sales.


MK and Smash were both on the N64 and GC. They didn't stop the downward trend then. They both sell very well to core Nintendo fans, but no one else gives a damn and the core Nintendo fan base is shrinking all the time.

Nintendo just isn't living room relevant anymore. That's the real problem. Their core fans will propel home consoles to the 20-30M range eventually and if they don't lose money on hardware they can make a profit on that thanks to crazy high first party tie ratios, but they've already failed at that with the Wii U (losing money on hardware) and the transition to HD is stalling all the high tie ratio first party software, furthering their losses.

They simply need to change the game and get out of the dedicated home console market entirely. A hybrid system with elite tech relative to handheld devices would provide all the horsepower they'd need to deliver impressive games and it would let them unite fans on a single platform for maximum software sales,where the real profits are to be had.

Great posts.

Nintendo is losing relevance quick in the console sector and that is a worrying fact that they need to address. How is it their competitor is putting 80million+ selling consoles each gen? They need to stop being so arrpgant or insular and start learning from others.

 

[Mik317]

Pop culture reference. Ignore at will.

--



I understand that. But your point presumes that it's an equal supposition to assume the PS4 will have a full line-up versus the Wii U. Both assumptions are not equally valid.

I am saying it's more fair to assume that the Wii U will not have a robust software line-up because it doesn't have the support of third parties. And similarly, it makes less sense to criticize Sony even if they do only have four games, because they didn't create a scenario in which they have to entirely support their own platform.

Okay..ignore the Sony part if that's what is holding you up.

My point is that we don't know the full lineup yet. It could be Smash, MK8, FDK, Zelda, X, Bayonetta, Yoshi, Metroid, and Pokken. Those are just what we know are coming (the last 2 not so much) plus some potential big gets, some third party bones, 3rd Sega game, and more. So acting like its only 3 games is what I said is silly and we should at least give them the benefit of the doubt that some big stuff could hit next year. I think they could potentially have a great and varied lineup next year.

But we won't know until the next major event or whatever. Basically it is a bit premature to damn the year yet.

 

[Freezie KO]

Okay..ignore the Sony part if that's what is holding you up.

Well, that was the only part I quoted.

My point is that we don't know the full lineup yet. It could be Smash, MK8, FDK, Zelda, X, Bayonetta, Yoshi, Metroid, and Pokken. Those are just what we know are coming (the last 2 not so much) plus some potential big gets, some third party bones, 3rd Sega game, and more. So acting like its only 3 games is what I said is silly and we should at least give them the benefit of the doubt that some big stuff could hit next year. I think they could potentially have a great and varied lineup next year.

But we won't know until the next major event or whatever. Basically it is a bit premature to damn the year yet.

That's fair. Although it does feel like you are padding your list with Zelda because we don't know if it's coming next year. We haven't heard anything of Metroid beyond a pin on Reggie's lapel. And Pokken might not even exist.

 

[Dark_castle]

Sell Monolith Soft to Sony. X is the only announced Wii U exclusive that I truly care from Nintendo at this point.

Nintendo should just focus on 3DS. Even Smash already found its way to 3DS.

 

[rjinaz]

You have to admit that with the regularity these threads have popped up, one would think that it was truly the end of the line.

If no one truly thinks Nintendo am doomed, then what is with the idea of killing the Wii U now or going third party as constant ideas of what they should do right away?

The Wii U is probably never going to be considered a success (hell some people see the 3DS as a failure ) and honestly all Nintendo can do is throw all the biggins at it while hopefully keeping it afloat for 2-3 more years until the next system. Also use this time to go after some indies, those left behind, and become the landing spot of some niche stuff in hopes that something from this easy to get group becomes something big (I think a lot of japanese devs will be left behind even more...this is where Nintendo can get some freebies). That is what they should do...no need to go crazy right away, killing shit, and digging yourself a bigger hole.

I personally think that the most common ideas are in fact doomsday ideas. These are last ditch effort type deals. The Hybrid only makes sense, if the company is dying to me. Killing off a source of income in hopes that the hybrid catches on is something a desperate company does. It is the kitchen sink idea. One can justly argue that keeping the Wii U afloat is losing them money and getting rid of it and focusing on one is best and yes I get it, however..I still think you give a dedicated console another goal. A solid selling console and a solid selling handheld, is probably better for Nintendo than just one solid selling system. So why not give that a go. Third party is definitely an endgame type move. And going toe to toe with Sony and MS, may be too.

So with those ideas constantly popping up, you tend to get the idea that a lot of dudes in fact do think Nintendo is at the end of their rope. The Wii U is probably not salvagable and someone has to pay for that. Be it Iwata or whoever and yest hey need a change in philosophy for sure. But with these threads, I feel like people go to extreme at times. Like you said the Wii U is doomed not the company, then any move the company makes shouldn't be a reactionary, all or nothing type move...not yet at least.

I think what some people want to have happen and what some people actually think will happen are sometimes not clarified, or at least I hope that is what is happening. If people think Nintendo is going to be going 3rd party anytime soon then they apparently don't know Nintendo all that well or are misinformed.

 

[kittens]

I want to see a new Nintendo console in Fall 2015 with Zelda as a launch title. Zelda can skip the Wii U entirely, I don't care. The Wii U is a poorly thought out sinking ship and Nintendo needs to move on as soon as possible.

 

[Mik317]

Well, that was the only part I quoted.



That's fair. Although it does feel like you are padding your list with Zelda because we don't know if it's coming next year. We haven't heard anything of Metroid beyond a pin on Reggie's lapel. And Pokken might not even exist.

lol yeah. Trust me if all they have is in fact Smash, MK8 and Mario Kart and the inbetween stuff is Yoshi and Hyrule Warriors and maaaaybe something else...then people can be super upset. I think they really need Zelda this year..

 

[RexNovis]

This post is all the more awesome if you add an NSMB "wah wah" in between every point in the list.

LOL 100% correct

 

[rjinaz]

Sell Monolith Soft to Sony. X is the only announced Wii U exclusive that I truly care from Nintendo at this point.

Nintendo should just focus on 3DS. Even Smash already found its way to 3DS.

I don't know about that. I mean, Xenoblade was an incredible game and X is looking to be incredible as well. It seems to me that Monolith Soft and Nintendo go well together. I'm pretty sure if it wasn't for Nintendo Monolith Soft would have faded into obscurity by now and who is to say that would not happen with another company like Sony who would perhaps have the teams working on their own games instead of original IPs?

 

[Wynnebeck]

The same as usual. Nintendo market cap is bigger than Sony. Sony is in worster trouble since they are a larger company that doesn't just focus on gaming alone.

It really isn't.

 

[Laughing Banana]

It's kind of amazing that perhaps it can be said that how SEGA's attempt back at Genesis vs SNES wars to paint Nintendo as "the kiddy" company continue to reverberate so strongly nowadays and become a large part in how publishers view Nintendo and as such how they treat Nintendo and as such also a large part in Nintendo's situation nowadays.

 

[disappeared]

I'm split 50/50 on this issue. Part of me really wants to see Iwata n' pals crash and burn due to sheer idiocy, but part of me still wants Nintendo to stay afloat with their console business for the sake of games like Galaxy and Pikmin.

 

[rjinaz]

It's kind of amazing that perhaps it can be said that how SEGA's attempt back at Genesis vs SNES wars to paint Nintendo as "the kiddy" company continue to reverberate so strongly nowadays and become a large part in how publishers view Nintendo and as such how they treat Nintendo and as such also a large part in Nintendo's situation nowadays.

I think even Nintendo sees itself as a family friendly company, this is evident to me by the way they handle their online infrastructure and most of their ads are targeted and feature children; for example. I think this image has worked well for Nintendo in the past. The problem is though, at least from what I have seen, kids aren't into consoles so much anymore, it's about the mobile and PC gaming. If Nintendo continues to target mostly children they may find out they no longer have much of an audience.

 

[K.Sabot]

Nintendo needs to make a huge gamble, expand their space, hire a whole bunch of teams, and just start putting out Wii U game on Wii U game until people notice.

Of course, that's never going to happen though.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Sell Monolith Soft to Sony. X is the only announced Wii U exclusive that I truly care from Nintendo at this point.

Nintendo should just focus on 3DS. Even Smash already found its way to 3DS.

Lol!

I want to see a new Nintendo console in Fall 2015 with Zelda as a launch title. Zelda can skip the Wii U entirely, I don't care. The Wii U is a poorly thought out sinking ship and Nintendo needs to move on as soon as possible.

I dont get this. You want them to end Wii U so you can play the game on whatever but that game is coming out on Wii U... wat! lol

 

[Cheerilee]

I like how you're picking and choosing what is and isn't attributed to Iwata and Yamauchi. The poor third party relations that you quoted from Shikamaru Ninja have little to nothing to do with Iwata. Even the dates don't line up if you look at them. Iwata didn't become president until 2004 so how was he involved with distancing from third parties starting in 2000? No, that was all Yamauchi who started stupid grudges because of "disloyal" third parties who dared to develop for Playstation.

On the flip side, yes Iwata did have a hand in DS and Wii but I still believe they were primarily Iwata's babies. With Wii specifically Yamauchi's major input to Iwata was to keep it cheap and affordable, which he did. And that, to an extent, is still true of the products they release today.

Iwata became president in 2002, not 2004, and before that he was the head of "Planning" and was supposedly a key figure in the design of the GameCube.

NOA was largely responsible for hooking up with Silicon Graphics and the N64 (not the decision to use carts). That relationship gave birth to the ArtX graphics card in the GameCube, which was the only real strength of the GameCube, and pretty much carried the system. NOA also hooked up with a lot of the Western developers who made the N64 worth owning. The N64 was all about Mario and Zelda, but it was also the Halo box (back when such a thing was called Goldeneye) and had a lock on the developers who would go on to make Grand Theft Auto.

NCL decided that NOA needed to be "managed", so they made Iwata the head of "Planning" in 2000, and he took over third party relations (and subsequently killed them) and made sure that the GameCube reflected Nintendo's flawed ideals. Yamauchi, not Iwata, was directly responsible for the selling of Rare, but NOA were the ones who brought Rare into the fold. Yamauchi might have kept them around if he had been listening to NOA instead of Iwata.


The DS, as a strategy to counter to the PSP, supposedly came from Yamauchi himself, as did the idea of dual screens.

Waggle was in the pipeline as a late-life GameCube add-on, and AFAIK it was Iwata's decision to keep it in reserve and use it for a GameCube relaunch (which was his idea, and became the Wii). Waggle's origins don't lie with Iwata, but it's successful implementation does.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

I don't know about that. I mean, Xenoblade was an incredible game and X is looking to be incredible as well. It seems to me that Monolith Soft and Nintendo go well together. I'm pretty sure if it wasn't for Nintendo Monolith Soft would have faded into obscurity by now and who is to say that would not happen with another company like Sony who would perhaps have the teams working on their own games instead of original IPs?

I don't know how much has changed but that studio was also doing great under SE and Namco Bandai. They are great rpg makers. My only disappointment is that their stories are no longer as good. Xenogears and Xenosaga had crazy stories.

 

[Freezie KO]

It's kind of amazing that perhaps it can be said that how SEGA's attempt back at Genesis vs SNES wars to paint Nintendo as "the kiddy" company continue to reverberate so strongly nowadays and become a large part in how publishers view Nintendo and as such how they treat Nintendo and as such also a large part in Nintendo's situation nowadays.

Did Sega make this commercial too?

 

[disappeared]

Nintendo needs to make a huge gamble, expand their space, hire a whole bunch of teams, and just start putting out Wii U game on Wii U game until people notice.

Of course, that's never going to happen though.

And they'll outsource the next Mario game to Quantic Dream.