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Official Doctor Who Series 1, 5, 31, or Fnarg Thread of Moffat & Smith

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S

Shanadeus

Banned
cnet128 said:
Yes, it would. Because nothing up to that point in the series had mentioned Heracles, Zeus or the White Guardian; there had been no hint at either their existence, or their having the ability to pull off such a feat.

By contrast, it had been firmly established that a) Amy had spent her whole life in direct proximity to the crack (evident from the very first episode), b) this had had huge consequences on her life (hinted at over the course of the series and made explicit in the final episode), c) this unique position had resulted in a powerful link between her and the time vortex, sufficient to recreate portions of the universe from nothing (this being the reason that Rory was able to return as more than a mere automaton in the penultimate episode), d) that the logic behind the cracks' modifying the universe was affected by highly subjective factors (it made things 'not have happened', but only parts of the consequences were actually removed, blatant inconsistencies resulted, and whether memories were erased or not could depend on how 'important' they were), and e) that the Doctor was not even strictly speaking 'gone', merely trapped on the other side of the cracks.

Based on these established facts, it seems entirely feasible that Amy remembering the Doctor could bring him back. The cracks' rewriting of the universe was imperfect; they just wiped from history anything that they 'absorbed', erased the most obvious consequences, and wiped memories to make things seem superficially consistent. The Pandorica's light directly reversed this effect, latching on to anything that had been imperfectly erased and fully restoring it. When this light was spread through the cracks themselves, reaching the entire universe just as the cracks did the same, it basically cancelled them out and restored the universe, removing all the inconsistencies with the exception of one: the Doctor himself (and the Tardis) were not restored, because they were at the centre of it all, right inside the cracks, outside of the universe.

As such, the cracks' logic persisted around that one point: all obvious consequences of the Doctor's existence were removed, and everyone's memories of him were wiped. They gave the world a superficial 'consistency' that did not include the Doctor. However, Amy remembering the Doctor caused that superficial consistency to break down. Perhaps ordinarily, one person remembering wouldn't be enough to actually bring him back, but as the person in question was Amy, wih her powerful connection to the whole phenomenon, it was enough to restore some measure of connection between the Doctor and the universe - and I'm guessing that the Doctor himself, was able to take advantage of that connection to transport himself out of the limbo he was trapped in, and back into the universe proper.

Now, this is just my understanding of the whole thing, and I'm not claiming that it's the only possible interpretation. I'm not saying that there aren't perfectly reasonable complaints you could make, either. I could understand, for instance, if you weren't happy with Amy's lifelong proximity to the crack giving her such a profound connection to the time vortex, or if you didn't like the idea that the Pandorica could have such an all-powerful restorative ability. But neither of these complaints make the conclusion deus ex machina, because deus ex machina come out of nowhere, whereas these factors had been hinted at and established ahead of time.
Click to expand...
And this is why it's the best season finale of the new series.
 
I

infiniteloop

Member
cnet128 said:
Yes, it would. Because nothing up to that point in the series had mentioned Heracles, Zeus or the White Guardian; there had been no hint at either their existence, or their having the ability to pull off such a feat.

By contrast, it had been firmly established that a) Amy had spent her whole life in direct proximity to the crack (evident from the very first episode), b) this had had huge consequences on her life (hinted at over the course of the series and made explicit in the final episode), c) this unique position had resulted in a powerful link between her and the time vortex, sufficient to recreate portions of the universe from nothing (this being the reason that Rory was able to return as more than a mere automaton in the penultimate episode), d) that the logic behind the cracks' modifying the universe was affected by highly subjective factors (it made things 'not have happened', but only parts of the consequences were actually removed, blatant inconsistencies resulted, and whether memories were erased or not could depend on how 'important' they were), and e) that the Doctor was not even strictly speaking 'gone', merely trapped on the other side of the cracks.

Based on these established facts, it seems entirely feasible that Amy remembering the Doctor could bring him back. The cracks' rewriting of the universe was imperfect; they just wiped from history anything that they 'absorbed', erased the most obvious consequences, and wiped memories to make things seem superficially consistent. The Pandorica's light directly reversed this effect, latching on to anything that had been imperfectly erased and fully restoring it. When this light was spread through the cracks themselves, reaching the entire universe just as the cracks did the same, it basically cancelled them out and restored the universe, removing all the inconsistencies with the exception of one: the Doctor himself (and the Tardis) were not restored, because they were at the centre of it all, right inside the cracks, outside of the universe.

As such, the cracks' logic persisted around that one point: all obvious consequences of the Doctor's existence were removed, and everyone's memories of him were wiped. They gave the world a superficial 'consistency' that did not include the Doctor. However, Amy remembering the Doctor caused that superficial consistency to break down. Perhaps ordinarily, one person remembering wouldn't be enough to actually bring him back, but as the person in question was Amy, wih her powerful connection to the whole phenomenon, it was enough to restore some measure of connection between the Doctor and the universe - and I'm guessing that the Doctor himself, was able to take advantage of that connection to transport himself out of the limbo he was trapped in, and back into the universe proper.

Now, this is just my understanding of the whole thing, and I'm not claiming that it's the only possible interpretation. I'm not saying that there aren't perfectly reasonable complaints you could make, either. I could understand, for instance, if you weren't happy with Amy's lifelong proximity to the crack giving her such a profound connection to the time vortex, or if you didn't like the idea that the Pandorica could have such an all-powerful restorative ability. But neither of these complaints make the conclusion deus ex machina, because deus ex machina come out of nowhere, whereas these factors had been hinted at and established ahead of time.
Click to expand...

great post.
 
S

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
Finally got to watch the finale. So glad I can now enter this thread without fear. Love Matt Smith, liked the season and positively adored the finale.

Now where we at?
 
A

Alphahawk

Member
Also keep in mind
Amy wasn't all that powerful in her god-like state, but the universe was new and things could be bent easily, I imagine if she tried to bring the Dr back like a year later it wouldn't work.
 
S

Seraphis Cain

bad gameplay lol
Man, I am absolutely BLAZING through this season. Already up to "The Lodger". Apparently I suck at pacing myself. Going to try to resist watching the finale tonight. We'll see how that goes. :lol
 
S

Seraphis Cain

bad gameplay lol
Aaaaand done. :D

Loved it. There are several things that I still don't get; inconsistencies, confusing shit, etc, but hell, I don't care. I enjoyed it so much that any inconsistencies I might have issue with just really, really don't matter.

Now if only the next special weren't (I'm assuming) several months away. Oh well though, I've got four more seasons of Dr. Who to catch up on (minus the 1/2 or so of Season 2 I've already seen). That oughta keep me busy. :lol
 
D

Dr Zhivago

Member
Amy
wishing the Doctor and the Tardis back into existence is exactly as silly as the Doctor being regenerated by prayer-power. I think some people are just letting their hatred for Davies or love for Moffat overwhelm their critical faculties :)
 
S

Spotless Mind

Member
Dr Zhivago said:
Amy
wishing the Doctor and the Tardis back into existence is exactly as silly as the Doctor being regenerated by prayer-power. I think some people are just letting their hatred for Davies or love for Moffat overwhelm their critical faculties :)
Click to expand...
It comes down to execution, as well as the fact that Moffat foreshadowed it throughout the season.
 
K

Keyser Soze

Member
Dr Zhivago said:
Amy
wishing the Doctor and the Tardis back into existence is exactly as silly as the Doctor being regenerated by prayer-power. I think some people are just letting their hatred for Davies or love for Moffat overwhelm their critical faculties :)
Click to expand...

Steven Spielberg blew Jaws up with a propane tank, that's stupid, and went against the novel, but I am willing to go with it as he held my interest enough throughout the rest of the film. Same goes for Moffat, the ending was a bit of a jump, but the ride to get there was so good I was willing to make that jump with him.

RTD's ending to season 4 was basically Mega Shark Versus Giant Octopus levels of inaneness, with an ending that even offended people blind enough to enjoy the first 1:50. I did not enjoy the ride, so when he got fantastical with his ending I could not find any way to justify it, as I did not believe or trust anything he did earlier in the episode.
 
D

Dr Zhivago

Member
Keyser Soze said:
Steven Spielberg blew Jaws up with a propane tank, that's stupid, and went against the novel, but I am willing to go with it as he held my interest enough throughout the rest of the film. Same goes for Moffat, the ending was a bit of a jump, but the ride to get there was so good I was willing to make that jump with him.
Click to expand...

That's a terrible analogy. A gas tank exploding after being shot by a gun is something I can accept, even if it's 'movie physics'.
I'm not really complaining about the plot jump itself, just this idea that it's fundamentally different to some of Davies' endings.

It comes down to execution, as well as the fact that Moffat foreshadowed it throughout the season.
Click to expand...

When?
 
G

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
Dr Zhivago said:
That's a terrible analogy. A gas tank exploding after being shot by a gun is something I can accept, even if it's 'movie physics'.
I'm not really complaining about the plot jump itself, just this idea that it's fundamentally different to some of Davies' endings.



When?
Click to expand...

When Rory
died
the doctor said to Amy
anything can come back if it can be remembered
or words to that effect, he said it a few times.


Generally though I agree it was a bit of a weak way to get him back. Especially when the Doctor was
in the pandorica, which they'd already established as a prison that didnt let its prisoner escape, even in death. surely there was a more logical escape there somewhere
 
M

Mr. Sam

Member
Dr Zhivago said:
When?
Click to expand...
Well, there was all that
crack stuff and Amy being "special." However, it was most directly foreshadowed with The Doctor attempting to prevent Amy from forgetting Rory to "keep him alive."
 
K

Keyser Soze

Member
Dr Zhivago said:
That's a terrible analogy. A gas tank exploding after being shot by a gun is something I can accept, even if it's 'movie physics'.
I'm not really complaining about the plot jump itself, just this idea that it's fundamentally different to some of Davies' endings.
Click to expand...

I was trying to go for a movie that almost everyone knew the ending to so as not to get hit with SPOILERS replies...

If you want to go for earlier things, then the ending to The Sopranos was not what everyone wanted, but I (and others) liked the run of episodes up to it, so regardless of the way it ended people were somewhat impressed. Of course, the ending to that show was not fantastical in any way, but the creator/writer of the show had built up enough of my trust on the road to the end so he could then end it in any logical way and I could find it believeable

RTD did very little to make me trust his arcs and stories over his run, and I always was thinking "what will he do to fuck this up now," instead of enjoying the ride. Sure, he got it right a few times, but he got it wrong enough of times for me to question him - which is the worst thing any show can do IMO.

I am not saying Moffat got everything right, but he got enough spot on to make me still believe his vision for the way he is taking the show. I even trusted him enough to have watched Sherlock last night, which was fantastic, and in turn makes me want to watch more Who with him in charge.

On the other hand, I really could not care what RTD is up to these days.
 
N

Nickiepoo

Member
Reno7728 said:
Doctor Who Fans, you should all know that Sherlock is Brilliant, and you should all watch it.

It's like Doctor who without the sonic screwdriver!
Click to expand...

This man speaks truth, came here to post this ect.

It's on Iplayer for those of you who missed it (and can actually access Iplayer).
 
S

Spotless Mind

Member
Dr Zhivago said:
When?
Click to expand...
cnet128's post is a great summation. Amy's relation to the cracks, the lines about "traces" being left, that scene in Flesh and Stone, plus other little nuggets all add up and make it much easier to swallow. It was at least consistent within what the show had laid out. Plus, as Keyser said, the quality of the finale in general makes it easier to just go along for the ride.
 
D

Dr Zhivago

Member
To be honest, I don't think any of those hints add up to Amy magically bringing back the Doctor - and rebuilding the Tardis don't forget!

Again, I'm not against handwavery in Who but I don't really think there's such a big difference between Davies' handwaving & Moffat's.

Anyway, apparently Benedict 'Sherlock' Cumberbatch is hinting he'll be appearing in Dr Who at some point, perhaps
The Master?
 
T

Thomper

Member
Dr Zhivago said:
To be honest, I don't think any of those hints add up to Amy magically bringing back the Doctor - and rebuilding the Tardis don't forget!

Again, I'm not against handwavery in Who but I don't really think there's such a big difference between Davies' handwaving & Moffat's.

Anyway, apparently Benedict 'Sherlock' Cumberbatch is hinting he'll be appearing in Dr Who at some point, perhaps
The Master?
Click to expand...
I kinda wish he'd just appear as Sherlock Holmes. He's a very Doctor-like character anyway, and Sherlock's never appeared in a Doctor Who episode. Only problem would be that Holmes is a fictional character so working him into the 'real' world of Doctor Who might be a small problem, but still, as far as historical figures go, seems like a good character for a next series.
 
M

Mr. Sam

Member
The primary difference between The Doctor and Sherlock is that The Doctor explains nothing, whereas Sherlock explains everything. Would I really want a crossover? Hmm, maybe.
 
T

Thomper

Member
Mr. Sam said:
The primary difference between The Doctor and Sherlock is that The Doctor explains nothing, whereas Sherlock explains everything. Would I really want a crossover? Hmm, maybe.
Click to expand...
Sherlock also seems to genuinely not be interested in any human activity at all, while The Doctor is usually just too busy to always take it in.

Matt Smith originally auditioned for the part of Watson. Didn't get it, Moffat saw him more as a Sherlock but that role was already taken by that point. So... yeah, if things would have gone slightly differently, The Doctor might have been Sherlock.

It could work. Doesn't seem that likely, but if anyone can make that work, it'd be Moffat.
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
...is it safe?

Starting The Hungry Earth...again. I fell asleep on it the first time, though not through any fault if the show. I was just tired as hell.

I really need to go to the UK soon. The scenery in this episode makes me sad that I live in a fucking swamp. :lol

EDIT: Amy doesn't own a pair of pants, does she?
 
J

jdogmoney

Member
Thomper said:
I kinda wish he'd just appear as Sherlock Holmes. He's a very Doctor-like character anyway, and Sherlock's never appeared in a Doctor Who episode. Only problem would be that Holmes is a fictional character so working him into the 'real' world of Doctor Who might be a small problem, but still, as far as historical figures go, seems like a good character for a next series.
Click to expand...

Literary Agent Hypothesis. Bam. Problem solved.
 
The Elite

The Elite

BOSS
WanderingWind said:
...is it safe?

Starting The Hungry Earth...again. I fell asleep on it the first time, though not through any fault if the show. I was just tired as hell.

I really need to go to the UK soon. The scenery in this episode makes me sad that I live in a fucking swamp. :lol

EDIT: Amy doesn't own a pair of pants, does she?
Click to expand...
Nor should she.
 
A

APZonerunner

Member
Thomper said:
I kinda wish he'd just appear as Sherlock Holmes. He's a very Doctor-like character anyway, and Sherlock's never appeared in a Doctor Who episode. Only problem would be that Holmes is a fictional character so working him into the 'real' world of Doctor Who might be a small problem, but still, as far as historical figures go, seems like a good character for a next series.
Click to expand...

Y'know, this story has already been mapped out, just with the wrong writer and characters - anybody who's read "The Writers' Tale" which is comprised of RTD's thoughts while he wrote series 4 and the specials, one candidate for the episode that ended up as The Next Doctor was trying to get JK Rowling to appear in a cameo in an episode where bits of her books started becoming real due to alien intervention.

What I'm saying is imagine an episode where The Doctor meets Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and there's some alien(s) using Doyle's work as their basis for their disguises on earth? So there's a Sherlock and a Watson and a Moriarty all running about, but the Doctor knows they're not the real deal as they're fictional and Doyle is wondering how the hell his creations have come to be real, with a more traditional Who plot hiding behind the scenes ready for when the Holmes costumes are dropped.
 
T

Thomper

Member
jdogmoney said:
Literary Agent Hypothesis. Bam. Problem solved.
Click to expand...
Seemed the most likely way to go for me, too, but then they'd have to set it during the time Arthur Conan Doyle lived, which means that if Benedict Cumberbatch would also play Sherlock in this episode, he'd be playing two versions of the same character, just set in different timelines. Certainly possible, but really odd/weird. :lol
 
B

Blader

Member
Dr Zhivago said:
Amy
wishing the Doctor and the Tardis back into existence is exactly as silly as the Doctor being regenerated by prayer-power. I think some people are just letting their hatred for Davies or love for Moffat overwhelm their critical faculties :)
Click to expand...

I agree with this. It was no more deus ex machina-ish than RTD's finales.

What makes Big Bang more enjoyable imo is that Moffat's story structure is generally more interesting than RTD's, and his dialogue is just really fucking great.
 
C

Cosmonaut X

Member
WanderingWind said:
Pantaloons? Trousers?

I don't know. What does pants mean in the UK?
Click to expand...

Knickers, scanties, Y-fronts, boxers etc. etc. Underwear, basically.

So, "Amy doesn't own a pair of pants... Nor should she" takes on a slightly different tone.

Silly, I know, but you're talking to someone who still finds the cross-Atlantic cigarette/fag thing amusing... :)
 
D

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
So, I have Verizon Wireless in the states, have the Droid from Android. Got a promotion in the mail to upgrade to the Droid X. On the front in big letters near the red eye is "Never Blink"

I laughed, then threw it away.
 
C

Cosmonaut X

Member
DrForester said:
So, I have Verizon 10 Wireless int eh states, have the Droid from Android. Got a 9 promotion in the mail to upgrade to the Droid X. On 8 the front in big letters near the red eye is "Never Blink"

I laughed, 7 then threw it away...
Click to expand...

Fixed ;-)
 
M

mclem

Member
Cosmonaut X said:
Knickers, scanties, Y-fronts, boxers etc. etc. Underwear, basically.

So, "Amy doesn't own a pair of pants... Nor should she" takes on a slightly different tone.

Silly, I know, but you're talking to someone who still finds the cross-Atlantic cigarette/fag thing amusing... :)
Click to expand...

I think the best example of this is the "fanny pack", which will usually result in at least a knowing smile from a brit. As far as we're concerned it's a "bum bag", which probably isn't much better from your point of view.
 
J

JonathanEx

Member
DoctorWho said:
Nor should she.
Click to expand...
vlcsnap-154199-1.jpg
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Amy's attractiveness is all in her face. She's all knobby elsewhere. But her expressions are adorable/sexy and her voice....like most Americans, I love a good accent. :lol
 
N

Nickiepoo

Member
Oh crap, here comes the 100-post master-race.

Run for your lives fellow 50-post peasants!

Incidentally, I went and watched the Daleks in Manhattan two-parter the other day, which I had only previously seen the first part of.

Is it just me or was the finale of this one of the silliest things you'd ever seen on TV too?

EDIT: rawr page 16
 
D

Dead Man Typing

Member
Nickiepoo said:
Oh crap, here comes the 100-post master-race.

Run for your lives fellow 50-post peasants!

Incidentally, I went and watched the Daleks in Manhattan two-parter the other day, which I had only previously seen the first part of.

Is it just me or was the finale of this one of the silliest things you'd ever seen on TV too?

EDIT: rawr page 16
Click to expand...

I just watched it last night, as I re-work my way through all the New Who so far. It is definitely silly, but do you consider that to be a good thing or a bad thing? I love silly-ness in Doctor Who, so I enjoyed it greatly.

I thought that my first run through the series' had been tinted with gold because I was blazing through them one after another without any time to analyse or criticise every detail. So I expected my impressions second time through would be a little more honest, but I still really enjoy all the episodes, even the ones people on here really hate, and I'll still stand up as a member of the Martha Jones defence force.

Also 100 posts per page Master Race, rules supreme.
 
R

Reno7728

Member
Back on the Sherlock cross-over thread, I think integrating the modern version into te Whoniverse would hardly be the biggest leap the series has taken, especially as the new version is quite 'realistic'
 
S

Seraphis Cain

bad gameplay lol
After blazing through Season Fnarg, I've decided to circle back around and watch Season 1 for the first time. And after only the first episode, so much of 5/31/Fnarg makes so much more sense. :lol

Also, Eccleston's pretty great.
 
N

Nickiepoo

Member
Dead Man Typing said:
I just watched it last night, as I re-work my way through all the New Who so far. It is definitely silly, but do you consider that to be a good thing or a bad thing? I love silly-ness in Doctor Who, so I enjoyed it greatly.
Click to expand...

Dr.Who as a concept is fundamentally pretty silly so you have to like at least a little bit of silly to be able to enjoy the show (though I'm using a pretty broad definition of the word 'silly' here, but time-traveling 'wizard' with a magic box counts), and I have a lot of respect for any sci-fi show that has pretty much kept the same format for however long it's been while being as relevant now as it was back then.

But the show has a bit of a split personality due to the number of different writers and as a result I simply find some of the concepts and writing to be too 'kiddie' for my liking, which tends to be when the silliness knob is turned to 11. It doesn't effect my enjoyment of the show but there's a reason why I rate series 5 so highly. It may be silly, but to me it's a much better kind of silly.
 
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