Yeah I mean they can certainly do better, I remember reading how Eidos Montreal hired fashion designers for Mankind Divided.
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On Final Fantasy XV and female characters
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
Yeah I mean they can certainly do better, I remember reading how Eidos Montreal hired fashion designers for Mankind Divided.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Cindy is just poor (as it is extremely forced) "fanservice" like Gladio's questionable wardrobe decisions, though the latter actually has a character and so isn't remembered just for the "service".
As a massive fan of Stella, I would say the major difference with Luna, is not her lacking magical power (she seems to be very strong in that regard), or her getting slapped (honestly thats a silly reason to complain about the treatment of female characters), its her lack of story presence and individual character.
In the short Versus media, Stella was portrayed as having ulterior motives despite wanting to seemingly cooperate with Noctis, and her presence contested the 4 guys, I would even say surpass. Just compare that to Luna.
As a massive fan of Stella, I would say the major difference with Luna, is not her lacking magical power (she seems to be very strong in that regard), or her getting slapped (honestly thats a silly reason to complain about the treatment of female characters), its her lack of story presence and individual character.
In the short Versus media, Stella was portrayed as having ulterior motives despite wanting to seemingly cooperate with Noctis, and her presence contested the 4 guys, I would even say surpass. Just compare that to Luna.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Queen Brahn counts. She's 39 according to the FF Wikia and is a major NPC in the story.
You can't trust any of these guys.
Luna (main heroine), Aranea (boss, I believe said to be important, run a mercenary unit), Iris (Gladio sister maybe
a guest party member due to leaks)
may be a summon in human form
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Some of that kind of goes along with the "Nomura can go overboard" tendency that most of us are pretty aware of.
I'm not sure that Cindy is actually Nomura's but let's assume that she is for the sake of argument. Now he's off the project, and again, Tabata is in charge. And...he chose to keep Cindy. Of all the things he changed, that could have easily been one of them. And sure, Nomura's concept art of Aranea is pretty shit with the stupid crotch window. But I'm not expecting Tabata's game to do anything better with her in terms of writing. I'm fully expecting Jihl Nabaat 2.0, attractive and interesting villain/character people were into, killed off in a matter of minutes.
Interesting, but that sounds like it might be right.
Via Purifico
Banned
I think this is why I want the next FF game to have a proper female lead who is at least decently written.
Lightning just doesn't really cut it for me, just because she's a soldier doesn't mean she had to have the personality of a cardboard cut out who punches randomly out of anger.
The protag doesn't have to be Agni from the tech demo but I would be fine with a female character with a similar design base that is nice to look at without being too pandering.
One who can get shit done with some help in greater challenges during the story.
LOL so we can call Tabata out for clothing damage 3rd birthday even though it wasn't his idea or other skeevy stuff because he was the director but when Nomura is the director what gets in the game suddenly is all up to the designer and not on him? Don't play favorites like that.
I'll look them up later, but there are FAR more comments on the shower scene than just that interview.
Tabata once tweeted that there WOULDN'T be a shower scene, that it would be out of place, and then kept saying that everywhere he went players were asking him to add one into the game. He ultimately claimed he threw up his hands and was so overwhelmed with requests to put it into the game that he felt compelled to do so... while also admitted he would've been disappointed had it not be included.
I'll find actual sources later if you want. They were quite brazen in their admittance that the more seedy otaku fans "forced their hand" to strip her and put a shower scene in the game. Those poor, helpless devs....
Tabata has a terribly mediocre trackrecord in my opinion.
Non of his games ever rise above middling,with many of them being pretty bad to terrible.
I was just really disappointed when he was announced as director for FFXV.....
https://youtu.be/T0dabzg9GbM?t=1063
I loved that Luna's theme was written by Shimomura. Female composers are too rare, and to have that lead position in Japan no less - interesting her comments about the character!
I loved that Luna's theme was written by Shimomura. Female composers are too rare, and to have that lead position in Japan no less - interesting her comments about the character!
Just looking at Japanese media in general....
That's asking a lot.
Just going through all of the manga I've currently reading through, which is a lot, there are 2 of them that have strong female protagonists who aren't working on the motivations of trying to get a man. Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka?, which is about a girl who's reborn into a fantasy world as a spider, and Neko Musume Michikusa Nikki which is about ghost children playing with human children.
It's not a good time for strong female protags who aren't just all about getting hitched right now ya'll. Only other one I can think of is Amichu and that's about Scuba Diving and Yuri????
Via Purifico
Banned
Sad but true, one can dream.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Can you show me a screenshot of what Cindy looked like during the Nomura era? I seem to have forgotten.
Because what I'm seeing here is that Tabata included stupid shit in The 3rd Birthday and then included stupid shit, whether a leftover or not, in Final Fantasy XV again.
Nomura has his issues. I don't think anyone is really going to argue on that too much. Every designer probably has some flaws. But he's not in question here, because it's not his game anymore. It's Tabata's.
When did i call Tabata out for clothing damage...like ever? I called him out for being the main director of the game, just like here, and letting Toriyama write that shit show which really dragged it down the drain.
I think the clothes element could have worked personally. As i said, i don't even have an issue with sexy designs unless they go crazy overboard, but the ways characters are portrayed and how much agency they have in themselves is what i care about.
If we're going to talk about clothes in regards to Tabata,in Type 0, having that photo mode where you can look at the girls reduced to their bras and underwear, and panty shots every time they get knocked down is pretty bad.
Via Purifico
Banned
Tabata was the director he could have said no and gone with a different concept on both the story and designs like he did with XV.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Why can't we call Tabata of 3rd birthday clothing issue? Even if it wasn't his idea, he still went with it.
Also Type 0 fanservice...
Not any worse than western media and their traditional gender roles, although there are some acknowledgements of the wider world, most of it succumbs to the basic drivel. Of course there is plenty of stand out exceptions to the rule in both the west and Japan, let's not make the mistake of isolating this to "lol Japan"
I've read and watched too much Japanese media to accept that argument.
I'd say it is though, or rather, I've seen more strides taken in making media that doesn't adhere to normal gender roles in the west this year than I've seen in japan in the past 5. There's just no incentive for it over there because the dumb pandering bullshit still sells like hotcakes.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
In this context it does, there is a way bigger balance of male characters over the female characters, ffs we haven't even seen a middle aged woman in this game. Let alone someone as old as Cid. Like sure Gladio exists, but he's one among many while Luna and Gentiana are the standouts of pandering crap.
She may have existed then seeing how other of Robert designs from 2010 are in the game. He designed Aranea & Ardyn back in 2010.
Via Purifico
Banned
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwbY9-2Gn2I
There's also this, it varies from dev to dev Capcom has been pretty great with their female characters as far as Resident Evil is concerned.
Jill and Claire remain favorites of mine, especially the former due to RE3.
Have you been looking the right places? Its hard to base the conclusions you have made because i don't know exactly what you've consumed
Gladio is actually pretty much sexualized in the game too. He's practically the male equivalent to Cindy. It's not just how he looks (tall, dark-haired, muscular), how he behaves (uber manly) and dresses (all in black leather with his abs and chest out) but also how he is staged:
Now you can say but Cidney is sexualized even further. Well, there are different standards to sexualization of women and men. You can't really let Gladio wear hotpants too because that would already look comical and not sexy at all anymore. Well, some might find that hot as well. XD
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Jill came back as a blonde with a skin tight body suit...
The 3rd Birthday is a double-whammy in that regard, because the main character is presented visually in various states of undress (no matter what you do, since her clothes shred up as you progress through the game), but also in terms of her agency - or lack thereof - in the actual plot. She's a mewling, submissive, weak-willed, spineless wallflower in the game, constantly being told what to do, having her body ogled by perverts in-game against her will, and lacking any ability to stand up for herself or protest. It's really one of the sickest, most frustrating scripts I've ever seen in a mainstream video game, and it's beyond baffling it ever got approved.
Not just approved. The whole game ran wild with it and seemed blissfully unaware of how creepy and lecherous it was. It ENCOURAGED that same behavior for players, since the more you played, the skimpier her clothes became. The hot shower scene was an unlockable you had to EARN.
Capcom, I will admit, is still one of the better Japanese developers when it comes to diversity and women.
... That's not saying much, I know, and their record is hardly spotless.
Despite how mishandled Jill was in RE5, she's still demonstrated and presented as a supremely capable, highly intelligent, valuable and respected female soldier, and the vast majority of her games - even with the fan-service - still demonstrate this. I love Jill, and I was gutted by how she was exploited and used in RE5 (especially since she wasn't even one of the ones allowed to give the finishing blow to the man who kidnapped, brainwashed, and exploited her for YEARS...). Her DLC alleviated some of it, however, as she was ridiculously weak and sick from the ordeal she was going through, yet still strong and capable enough to pick herself up and plow through legions of deadly monsters regardless.
Capcom tries to walk the line with many of their female characters - in Street Fighter, Resident Evil, Devil May Cry, etc. - and I think they do it better than MOST. They're not perfect, but I believe at the very least they design their women with a modicum of respect and agency.
Via Purifico
Banned
Like, the best instance of a female role that is not mired with the quest to procreate is that one j-drama about the doctor that beats up people before treating them.
And keep in mind, I'm not saying that there have never been good female roles coming out of japan that can pass a non-breeding litmus test, I'm saying that there are way way WAY less now.
Gladio is actually pretty much sexualized in the game too. He's practically the male equivalent to Cindy. It's not just how he looks (tall, dark-haired, muscular), how he behaves (uber manly) and dresses (all in black leather with his abs and chest out) but also how he is staged:
Now you can say but Cidney is sexualized even further. Well, there are different standards to sexualization of women and men. You can't really let Gladio wear hotpants too because that would already look comical and not sexy at all anymore. Well, some might find that hot as well. XD
The point is that there's more to Gladio than just muscles and good hair. We know this, there's an anime about it.
Is there more to Cidney than a pair of hotpants and some compromising poses? All signs point to no.
That's the difference here. Sexy does not inherently mean sexist. But sexy shouldn't immediately equate to complete and total objectification. From what we know now, Cidney's sole purpose in FF15 is for the player to gawk at her. THAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATS the problem.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
DR2K
Banned
Let's put him in hot pants before we make such silly assertions.
Mom r tuff.
Hopes Mom from 13 was important.
Well he can do good female designs..when he wants to, he's confirmed to have done Iris and Gentiana.
Sometimes you get Gentiana, some times you get the bikini girl in Type-0
Via Purifico
Banned
I think something we should also consider is who exactly is directing the types of sketches they want in the game?.
Sure, the artist is the one who makes them but they had to have been given some instructions on a particular design they are looking for.
Or am I off base?
Sure, the artist is the one who makes them but they had to have been given some instructions on a particular design they are looking for.
Or am I off base?
Take off that silly ass hat.
You don't think Cidney looks comical?
I really don't get the random giant spike at the top
Or in any Final Fantasy game, for that matter! Except for the horrible, oafish glutton Queen Brahne in IX.
I'm not sure saying Luna and Gentiana are standouts among pandering crap is really accurate. Cindy is pretty much pandering crap ("the art team put too much heart and soul into her design" lol) but the dragoon woman–whose name I don't know how to spell–was just redesigned to be less objectified and looks much better. Then we have Luna, Gentiana and Iris who are not pandering at all, as far as I can tell.
Via Purifico
Banned
Don't forget the little poledance during the Versus days
https://youtu.be/YiIx9VJWSl8?t=5m44s
https://youtu.be/YiIx9VJWSl8?t=5m44s
That conversation can go a lot of different ways. Remember the guest cover for spider woman done by Milo Manara? Artistic take, even with direction, can go a lot of different ways.
Still, if you're saying that the powers that be weren't calling for anything but an extraordinarily attractive woman that "looked cool but sexy in armor", then yes, you're likely spot on.
She doesn't. She looks sexy to a very high degree, something that most people don't find comical.
Unless you find like...strippers funny. I wouldn't find someone walking down the street in Cidney's outfit amusing, I'd probably find it arousing, even in the wake of it's nontraditional lunacy.
Man, I don't even mind that, it just doesn't fit with her visuals.
I bet someone else in FF15 will do that. Maybe Shiva.
No, you're correct. The artist is given directions on the general feel of what the director or storywriter wants.
At least, that's typically how it works. It how it works in comics, and it's how I work in comics.
Who could forget THIS classic Frank Miller direction to Jim Lee in All-Star Batman & Robin?
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I feel a very key difference between Gladio and the women is that there is a huge variety of men in Final Fantasy XV, and about five late teens to early 20s women on the other side, two of whom wear very revealing outfits, another which is a quiet-seeming princess who is your arranged marriage wife, the princess' demure-looking attendant, and Gladio's little sister who talks to Noctis about how they're basically going on a date.
If we add in the movie, there's a woman who is about the same age and is the only female member of the Kingsglaive.
Maybe in context this comes across totally different, or there are all sorts of unrevealed characters they're just not showing off, but Gladio looks like part of a significantly diverse cast (if we ignore ethnicity for a moment) of men that doesn't really apply to the other gender.
It's not like this whole thing takes place in a high school or other such organization either where you'd expect rather constricted ages.
If we add in the movie, there's a woman who is about the same age and is the only female member of the Kingsglaive.
Maybe in context this comes across totally different, or there are all sorts of unrevealed characters they're just not showing off, but Gladio looks like part of a significantly diverse cast (if we ignore ethnicity for a moment) of men that doesn't really apply to the other gender.
It's not like this whole thing takes place in a high school or other such organization either where you'd expect rather constricted ages.
Hey, I'm not defending Cindy's design at all. I find it ridiculous really.
Though we actually don't know yet if she will maybe play a bigger role after all. Maybe she shows us a bit more of herself...that is not her tan lines.
I do actually think she looks comical, yes.
Your not wrong. Nomura has said that he bases his designs as commission type works, as what the character is supposed to portray. so the script writer and the director and people in charge of the character' essentially describe to him a lot of what the characters traits are, and he draws a design that he feels encapsulates those traits.
But he can do more direct commissions as well. Lighting Returns's base lighting design was a direct commission, with Toriyama describing exactly how he wanted her to look like.
I agree with a lot of the OP, especially about Cindy. The fact there probably won't be any playable female characters is what makes designs like hers worse because we're already lacking important main female characters.
I think Final Fantasy VIII(this is why it's my favourite) and IX are the only games without sexualized females character designs and that's kind of sad. At the very least most of the female characters who are sexualized have important roles in previous games but XV I
I'm not really seeing anything to show otherwise. I'm just hoping once I play the game that I'm wrong.
I think Final Fantasy VIII(this is why it's my favourite) and IX are the only games without sexualized females character designs and that's kind of sad. At the very least most of the female characters who are sexualized have important roles in previous games but XV I
I'm not really seeing anything to show otherwise. I'm just hoping once I play the game that I'm wrong.
Hey, I'm not defending Cindy's design at all. I find it ridiculous really.
Though we actually don't know yet if she will maybe play a bigger role after all. Maybe she shows us a bit more of herself...that is not her tan lines.
And that's true, time will tell.
But man, if Cidney turned out to be a Honeypot character, I don't think this game would survive the reviews.
Yabberwocky
Member
The 3rd Birthday is still so incredibly infuriating all these years later. What an absolute trainwreck from everyone involved.
Yeah, it's really frustrating. Who's the oldest female playable/lead FF character? Is it actually Luna at 24? Lulu was 22 in FFX, and Celes and Faris are much younger than I thought they were, wow. Beatrix is 27/28. It's pretty disturbing that female characters past the age 30 mark generally don't seem to exist. Not that it's a problem unique to FF, obviously, and not even to Japan. I also recgonise the male characters in FF trend towards being young, but then you've still also got your Lagunas/Aurons, older Cids, older male villains, etc.
One thing I liked about Kingsglaive was that they'd added older women to the council that weren't there in Versus days. I think there was one or two older women in Type-0, too. (Then, of course, you've the whole underage girl/underwear thing from Type-0, which is a headache for another thread.)
Gladio's definitely fan-service, but his fan-service is still 100% practical, even with the open shirt. His designs seems so OOC after Brotherhood, it's really odd. He's such a practical, no-bullshit kinda guy.
It's a shame, as Ferrari does some great designs. Out of Type-0, I loved the designs of Caetuna, Qun'mi, Andoria, and Celestia. I also really like Emina and Arecia, and thought they walked the fan-service line a lot better than Cindy and Aranea.
Emina's jiggle-physics were hilarious, though, wow.
Matsuno, come baaaaaaaaaack. The writing on the women of FFXII and FFT were incredible, even with Fran's metal wedgie from hell. It's a shame Penelo's plot was removed from FFXII, I remember being intrigued by her backstory with her brothers pre-release. It would have tied in thematically with the other characters dealing with loss and vengeance.
Yeah, it's really frustrating. Who's the oldest female playable/lead FF character? Is it actually Luna at 24? Lulu was 22 in FFX, and Celes and Faris are much younger than I thought they were, wow. Beatrix is 27/28. It's pretty disturbing that female characters past the age 30 mark generally don't seem to exist. Not that it's a problem unique to FF, obviously, and not even to Japan. I also recgonise the male characters in FF trend towards being young, but then you've still also got your Lagunas/Aurons, older Cids, older male villains, etc.
One thing I liked about Kingsglaive was that they'd added older women to the council that weren't there in Versus days. I think there was one or two older women in Type-0, too. (Then, of course, you've the whole underage girl/underwear thing from Type-0, which is a headache for another thread.)
Gladio's definitely fan-service, but his fan-service is still 100% practical, even with the open shirt. His designs seems so OOC after Brotherhood, it's really odd. He's such a practical, no-bullshit kinda guy.
It's a shame, as Ferrari does some great designs. Out of Type-0, I loved the designs of Caetuna, Qun'mi, Andoria, and Celestia. I also really like Emina and Arecia, and thought they walked the fan-service line a lot better than Cindy and Aranea.
Emina's jiggle-physics were hilarious, though, wow.
Matsuno, come baaaaaaaaaack. The writing on the women of FFXII and FFT were incredible, even with Fran's metal wedgie from hell. It's a shame Penelo's plot was removed from FFXII, I remember being intrigued by her backstory with her brothers pre-release. It would have tied in thematically with the other characters dealing with loss and vengeance.
9 has Dagger in a skin tight bright orange outfit the whole game. And let's not forget Zidane
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
The biggest difference between Gladio and Cindy is that we are incapable of viewing men in the same sexualized way as women.
The same goes for the Ardyn/Luna slap, by the way. It isn't just progressivism that raises red flags about a women being hit. It's a deeply primitive (culturally, if not genetically) response to feel revulsion at a woman receiving abuse. We wouldn't react the same way to a man getting struck down at all.
The same goes for the Ardyn/Luna slap, by the way. It isn't just progressivism that raises red flags about a women being hit. It's a deeply primitive (culturally, if not genetically) response to feel revulsion at a woman receiving abuse. We wouldn't react the same way to a man getting struck down at all.
9 has Dagger in a skin tight bright orange outfit the whole game. And let's not forget Zidane
I'm pretty open about how I dislike Zidanes attitude towards Garnet but I heavily disagree that Garnet has a sexualized design.
Edit: If anything, Eiko has a horrible design but I don't know if I should call it sexualized or just disgusting.