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Overwatch |OT2| A New Low in Unlocking and Microtransaction Systems

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P

pigeon

Banned
So the tl;dr from that interview is that the McCree nerf, as some suspected, will just be a nerf to fan damage.

I personally preferred the idea of giving fan a cooldown because whenever I play McCree I get 95% of my kills by fanning, but cutting the damage will probably help as well. It sounds like McCree will still be able to flash fan roll fan to fuck up most tanks but probably not kill them.

Apparently they haven't decided what they want to do with D.Va but they do think she's either too squishy or not damaging enough. Either of those would be a fine improvement in my view.

Interesting to read that server tick rate is already 60hz. Also interesting that they think PotG is usually pretty cool even when it's Torbjorn but maybe the game isn't showing it off in the coolest way.
 
T

TheAngryMonkey

Member
Chronospherics said:
I get that and I understand its merits, but then what dissociates ranked from unranked games? If all my games end up as sweaty high-skill matches after a while, why switch between casual and unranked? Sometimes you just want to play a game and chill with a regular distribution of player skill levels. I enjoyed my time on PC games where I could just jump in a server and there would be all manner of skill levels represented.

It just reminds me of Rocket League. I enjoyed messing about and playing the game for a laugh, then I reached Gold III in ranked and every match would be incredibly intense. That in itself is fine, but at the same time, when I played casual games I would regularly be matched with Fysho, Gibbs, Kronovi, and MikeRules.

Even more of an issue is the way that these games take an average of your skill based rank when you are playing with others, therefore if you are playing with a rank 1 friend (hypothetical skill ranking range 1-60) and you are 49, then the MM places you against a ranked 25 team. However there is nothing to suggest that two players of skill 25+25 are equal to someone of skill 49+1. This often leads to frustrating missmatches and you can see this in actual games, where your entire team is outperforming there's, but your team is being undermined by a one or two weak links occupying a tank or support role.

When coupled with the lack of transparent scoring, it's a real issue, because you cannot explicitly isolate these mismatches and weak links. You also have no tangible metric to whether you're performing well (relative to team / opposition within your role).
Click to expand...

This is the exact argument I've made about Destiny matchmaking because people get super bent out of shape over it there too. I agree with the RL example you provide and it's a difficult problem to resolve. The game developer has, or at the very least is always collecting, the data required to improve matchmaking so that the 1+49 vs the 25+25 is either the correct way to match up opponents or maybe a 1+49 vs 30+30 is the better approach to getting towards 50/50 W/L.

I think unranked needs this sort of matchmaking for the same reason I pointed out before, you can't just have better players stomping new or lower skill players all the time. If you're rolling with a team in either ranked or unranked and still sitting at a 50/50 W/L...well then you know that there are still better players out there. If you're truly the best team, your W/L will tend higher but until you truly reach those top tiers (or bottom tiers) you're going to tend around 50/50
 
X

X-Frame

Member
idonteven said:
this game man... defending like pro's then the last 10 sec everything falls down... how ? this happens way way way to much
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Yes! This has happened way too often to even count now, I really have no idea what goes on. It's like the Defenders see the countdown then immediately start fanning out to get a few kills before the round ends, leaving points exposed and then it's a snowball.
 
D

Dreavus

Member
Shake Appeal said:
I find this one very useful, especially at range.

Does the dot still give you the "tink" sound for headshots? And doesn't it takes away, e.g., Zarya's charge meter?


Yeah, but if Overwatch balance patches regularly hinge on slow-ass console certification, I'm going to be annoyed.
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You still get the headshot sound and the "X" or "cross" hit confirm pattern around your crosshair so you know when you're landing shots. In S76's case, you don't get any indication of bullet spread like you do with the default crosshair, but my first impression is that it's a little easier to see when you are shooting at something long range. I'm going to stick with it for a few days and try and play more soldier, even though my aim has been off for a while with him. I'm hoping this will help, haha.

No idea about Zarya since I don't play her very much. I think I left her's and Hanzo's (for the drop off indicator) at default for now, but those two are near the bottom of my playtime anyways.



While playing around with this I am wondering if it's worth it to aim for the head with characters like Reaper, Roadhog, and Tracer. There's a decent amount of spread (like their default reticle indicates) and if you aim for the body you might land additional bullets, but miss out on the critical head shots. I'm guessing that aiming for the head is always the correct answer though, right?
 
C

Chronospherics

Member
Cocaloch said:
You realize that all matchmaking systems work like the bolded right? If the system is able to accurately match you with people of a similar skill level then you should only be winning about 50% of the time.

Also I don't understand how the aiming thing is a problem? The game is no counter strike. It's not just about your accuracy, but also how you team of characters with unique abilities is able to function as a team. Part of that is there will be characters where game sense and other factors are more important.
Click to expand...

No, no they don't. On Call of Duty it very loosely matches you towards kill to death ratio but more significantly it just tries to balance the two teams, not all players within, on Battlefield you just hop into a server and those players will be of any skill level, on Rainbow Six Siege there is only a very lose skill orientation to its matchmaking, on Halo's casual games there is no skill based orientation, on Uncharted and The Last of Us, there is no skill based orientation to the matchmaking (outside of ranked).

Not to mention that all of these games feature in-depth leaderboards where you can evaluate ones own performance relative to team and opposition. They don't all work as you suppose at all.

I didn't say the aiming thing was a problem per se, but I do with some characters had more of a learning curve to their design. If a character doesn't do anything but hold R2, maybe they could have more complex components of their strategy outside of that. I feel that Symettra is a good example of a well designed character fitting the archetype I desribe as despite a simplistic primary weapon she herself is squishy and needs to position herself and her turrets very intelligently to make use of that. Differential learning curves are what cause many of the balance issues in unranked play right now, underpinning the reason players are getting so frustrated with characters like Mei, because while she is not a highly effective character, her near flat learning curve allows anyone to pick her up and play beyond the performance of players at low-mid levels of play.

Balancing a game involves more than balancing the characters at their peak potential, and the differential learning curves of characters cause various balance issues at certain levels of play, that then don't present themselves later. Similar issue is observed in Torbjorn's design, who can be played at a mid-level of play by just about anyone, but feels lackluster at higher levels. The problem with this is that Torb dominates low-mid defensive play, as demonstrated by Masters of Overwatch character specific win ratios, were Torb features over 65%. If his design required a slightly more thoughtful use of the character in order to be effective, then this would not be an issue at low-mid levels of play.

Cocaloch said:
I assume that the difference will be that competitive will have a modified ruleset, and once it drops noone in casual is going to complain about your team comp. Your argument about matchmaking systems is weird. People either tend to want to do better or not care about their performance. I think very very few people will intentionally throw games to have a lower mmr.
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So in casual people shouldn't play to win? Just because it's a casual game doesn't mean people aren't going to want a positive outcome, and therefore, team comp is still going to be a factor. If three of you are playing Widow, people are still going to complain about you.

I don't think I suggested throwing games to have low MMR. I said that if you are playing badly, the system does not encourage you to do better, because it automatically places you with low MMR.
 
H

Haruko

Member
Dreavus said:
No idea about Zarya since I don't play her very much. I think I left her's and Hanzo's (for the drop off indicator) at default for now, but those two are near the bottom of my playtime anyways.
Click to expand...


I use a green dot reticule for all Heroes, and Zarya still has her charge meter. Unsure about Hanzo's drop-off indicator.
 
D

darklin0

Banned
Chronospherics said:
Yeah I was going to say at 200 hp Lucio isn't exactly tanky...

With that said, he could be easier to kill. As a support it feels like he is harder to take down than most 200 hp characters like Widow, Hanzo, Mercy, etc. because of his self heal. Taking down Lucio can force you to go through 400+ HP, and with speed boost and knock back he can also get away where the others cannot.

I think the issue is that he regens health while taking damage so with the knock back and evasiveness considered, he has a lot more sustain than a support has the right to possess. This is actually more of an issue on console, where players tend to be less accurate, and a Lucio wall running around the edge of the objective can survive for much longer.

I think it might be better if there were a very brief delay before he could self-heal after taking damage. That way, if he was being assaulted by someone, he couldn't just outheal it and run around.
Click to expand...
I can see that change being viable but it I feel like it will just make him more like Mercy and Zen. His self heal is the biggest reason why he can stay on objectives and the front lines as much as he does. Due to being in the front line so much that is when the opposing team need to realize he is a huge priority target.

Whenever my teams ever go for a push(both pub and premade) they always call out Mercy or Zen are down and that we should try to finish it off, but for some reason if it is a Lucío he is always ignored even though he out heals the other two supports and can negate a lot of necessary damage with his ult.

To sum up, Lucío has a nice kit to support in the front lines but for some reason no one punishes him for being in the front lines.
 
T

TheAngryMonkey

Member
Chronospherics said:
I get that and I understand its merits, but then what dissociates ranked from unranked games? If all my games end up as sweaty high-skill matches after a while, why switch between casual and unranked? Sometimes you just want to play a game and chill with a regular distribution of player skill levels. I enjoyed my time on PC games where I could just jump in a server and there would be all manner of skill levels represented.

It just reminds me of Rocket League. I enjoyed messing about and playing the game for a laugh, then I reached Gold III in ranked and every match would be incredibly intense. That in itself is fine, but at the same time, when I played casual games I would regularly be matched with Fysho, Gibbs, Kronovi, and MikeRules.

Even more of an issue is the way that these games take an average of your skill based rank when you are playing with others, therefore if you are playing with a rank 1 friend (hypothetical skill ranking range 1-60) and you are 49, then the MM places you against a ranked 25 team. However there is nothing to suggest that two players of skill 25+25 are equal to someone of skill 49+1. This often leads to frustrating missmatches and you can see this in actual games, where your entire team is outperforming there's, but your team is being undermined by a one or two weak links occupying a tank or support role.

When coupled with the lack of transparent scoring, it's a real issue, because you cannot explicitly isolate these mismatches and weak links. You also have no tangible metric to whether you're performing well (relative to team / opposition within your role).

It also doesn't encourage anyone to perform better, as poor performance is rewarded with easier games. So every crappy Widowmaker out there will stay crappy because she will be afforded a team and level of play that accommodates her inept skill level.

A final note, it also invalidates all of this score sharing and comparison that people are doing. Talking about their KDR and performance, when that performance is relative to an invisible skill based system. Maybe if that system was transparent, but as it is, it's hard to tell if you are performing well, or improving and that isn't very interesting in my opinion. I don't see much point in having two identical systems either. I always liked the way Halo did it, where ranked was the focus, but social games also existed. What's the point in getting better than other players, if you never get the opportunity to play anyone worse than you? while at the same time, have no metric for your performance, or category for your level of skill.
Click to expand...

You edited this while I was replying so about the final note...

I'll use Destiny as a comparison because I think it makes sense. Destiny MM is based on your Combat Rating which as far as I can tell is based around the number of points you score in a match over some magic numbers and time. Oversimplified, it's score divided by time spent in match. It's entirely possible to have a very high K/D while having a very low CR and likewise you could have a high CR but low K/D.

So forget about K/D, it's meaningless. What matters is, do you win? If so your hidden rating is raised. You compete against people with a similar, hidden rating. Keep winning and you will keep raising that hidden rating and competing against others with similar rating until you reach an equilibrium...or you never do because you're truly the best.
 
R

R0ckman

Member
TheAngryMonkey said:
I think people are entirely overreacting to this notion of a 50% win rate. If matchmaking is working properly, no matter your skill level, then you should approach a 50% W/L. Attempting to achieve a 50% W/L for all players is a commendable goal and shouldn't be shat on because high skill players consistently shitting on lower skill players is a terrible, discouraging experience for lower skilled players.
Click to expand...

Its not that, its that games where you are completely dominated should not be because your team is stupid. In solo matchmaking it feels like a very cheap dollar store version of matchmaking compared to doing it in a group.

I played for 4 hours with a full group last night and if the matches were not close, it was either slightly engaging needing some strategy and if there was a steam roll the team needed to use some kind of creative strategy.
 
E

Eric WK

Member
Miracle said:
Win rate at 59%. Although I'm sure it's only a matter of time before that goes down if that theory about the game forcing 50% maximum is true. :p
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The game definitely does not "force" a 50% win rate. It is designed to match you with equally skilled players and parties so you are naturally winning roughly half of your games once you're at your true MMR.

Obviously stomps happen but not because the game wants you (or the other) team to lose.

e: Looks like many people have already addressed this.
 
IbukiLordSA

IbukiLordSA

Member
Why game why, dammit

bYUGB1M.jpg
 
M

mbpm1

Member
Eric WK said:
The game definitely does not "force" a 50% win rate. It is designed to match you with equally skilled players and parties so you are naturally winning roughly half of your games once you're at your true MMR.

Obviously stomps happen but not because the game wants you (or the other) team to lose.
Click to expand...

No, the game hates us :(
 
S

Shake Appeal

Member
Dreavus said:
While playing around with this I am wondering if it's worth it to aim for the head with characters like Reaper, Roadhog, and Tracer. There's a decent amount of spread (like their default reticle indicates) and if you aim for the body you might land additional bullets, but miss out on the critical head shots. I'm guessing that aiming for the head is always the correct answer though, right?
Click to expand...
Yes, yes, and yes! Given that headshots count double, you would pretty much have to be missing 50% more of your shots as a result of going for the head for it not to be worth it, and that just won't happen in practice, especially since all three engage at super-close ranges.

It makes a huge difference with all three, but Tracer most of all, I find.

Here's which weapons headshot or not: http://www.furiouspaul.com/overwatch/basics/headshots.html
 
B

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
You know your game was shit when the POTG goes to your girlfriend building a turret, throwing scrap and picking it up then shooting a few bullets at a distance.

Someone even wrote in chat

Randomdude : wow best potg ever
Randomdude : picking scrap

Made us both laugh lol
 
C

Chronospherics

Member
TheAngryMonkey said:
You edited this while I was replying so about the final note...

I'll use Destiny as a comparison because I think it makes sense. Destiny MM is based on your Combat Rating which as far as I can tell is based around the number of points you score in a match over some magic numbers and time. Oversimplified, it's score divided by time spent in match. It's entirely possible to have a very high K/D while having a very low CR and likewise you could have a high CR but low K/D.

So forget about K/D, it's meaningless. What matters is, do you win? If so your hidden rating is raised. You compete against people with a similar, hidden rating. Keep winning and you will keep raising that hidden rating and competing against others with similar rating until you reach an equilibrium...or you never do because you're truly the best.
Click to expand...

Obviously there are examples of games that do feature a skill based orientation to even casual MM, but significantly Destiny does not dissociate between the two - it doesn't have an unranked mode, because it only has one system. My argument really is that if you are going to have both ranked and unranked, then there is little reason to have the same MMR driven MM underpinning both systems.

And in regards to winning and increasing your invisible rating, that's great but that rating remains hidden, so regardless of whether I win or lose it feels inconsequential. Even if I'm playing better players, I wouldn't know it, because in theory I should be progressing too. There's no sense of development of your own skills within that system. It's like being Ronaldo (not saying I am, just an example) but only being able to play anonymous equally skilled players for no tangible reward. It feels like all your effort is a waste of time.

And yeah sorry about the edit I tend to make big posts and edit a lot into them.
 
L

LiK

Member
My fave POTG last night was basically a Winston who killed me. No other kills. My group was like "he got that for one kill?" LOL
 
D

darklin0

Banned
eek5 said:
https://youtu.be/WUZ0HyqNvKs

Pretty sweet Lucio wall runs to point A
Click to expand...
Really cool but I feel in an actual game you will just get killed the second the realize you are there. I guess you can run but you leave your team with no heals for a while.
LiK said:
My fave POTG last night was basically a Winston who killed me. No other kills. My group was like "he got that for one kill?" LOL
Click to expand...
I love those. I always feel so proud that my death alone gives PotG lol.
 
E

eek5

Member
darklin0 said:
Really cool but I feel in an actual game you will just get killed the second the realize you are there. I guess you can run but you leave your team with no heals for a while.
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Some of them might work on an opening rush but I think these are more for getting back to your team once you have died on the hill. At that point everyone is focused on the hill so you can drop back in without everyone noticing.

Against some bad teams that play defense at the spawn entrance you'll probably be able to just take A though.
 
D

Dreavus

Member
Shake Appeal said:
Yes, yes, and yes! Given that headshots count double, you would pretty much have to be missing 50% more of your shots as a result of going for the head for it not to be worth it, and that just won't happen in practice, especially since all three engage at super-close ranges.

It makes a huge difference with all three, but Tracer most of all, I find.

Here's which weapons headshot or not: http://www.furiouspaul.com/overwatch/basics/headshots.html
Click to expand...

Ohhhh okay, I didn't realize it was double damage. That is very powerful.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Sometimes I seriously have to wonder about some people's aiming. Does bastion have a slow turn rate or something? I killed so many of them today just jumping around like an asshole and shooting them with lucio or mechless D.VA.
 
T

TheAngryMonkey

Member
Chronospherics said:
And that's great, but that rating remains hidden, so regardless of whether I win or lose it feels inconsequential. Even if I'm playing better players, I wouldn't know it, because in theory I should be progressing too. There's no sense of development of your own skills within that system.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying here and you're right. The MM exists to keep it fun enough for players of all skill levels and that's it. They don't care about moving that hidden needle at all even though they are behind the scenes.

The point of the ranked mode will be to move that ranking needle up and I'll do what I can to be part of a team that can do that. Where in quick play I don't care about moving that needle, hidden or not.
 
M

MUnited83

For you.
eek5 said:
https://youtu.be/WUZ0HyqNvKs

Pretty sweet Lucio wall runs to point A
Click to expand...
Volskaya one is the freaking best, I swear I haven't run into anyone expecting it yet. I have captured points with the help of a Pharah just by using that.
darklin0 said:
Really cool but I feel in an actual game you will just get killed the second the realize you are there. I guess you can run but you leave your team with no heals for a while.

I love those. I always feel so proud that my death alone gives PotG lol.
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It doesn't matter if you get killed. If you managed to get people away from the main choke points you did good. Like the Anubis example. If you do those jumps straight to the capture point you will likely break the pressure of the enemy team at the gate.
 
E

essemdub

Member
Can anyone explain to me how the "Score" stat is tracked and generated?

I like tracking my stats and driving self-improvement and a lot of stats seem nonsensical to me. As far as I can tell, this site tracks score per minute as a measurement of performance: http://masteroverwatch.com/

I'm not sure how the Score stat is generated, but it's an officially tracked stat from Blizzard: https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/

Sorry if this is off-topic.

Edit:

Chronospherics said:
And in regards to winning and increasing your invisible rating, that's great but that rating remains hidden, so regardless of whether I win or lose it feels inconsequential. Even if I'm playing better players, I wouldn't know it, because in theory I should be progressing too. There's no sense of development of your own skills within that system. It's like being Ronaldo (not saying I am, just an example) but only being able to play anonymous equally skilled players for no tangible reward. It feels like all your effort is a waste of time.
Click to expand...

Didn't notice this post. This is basically what I'm trying to sort out with the above post. Looks like for the stat trackers, the slack will be picked up by 3rd parties again. The people looking for leaderboards are going to have to go to unofficial trackers hooked into Blizzard stat APIs.
 
D

darklin0

Banned
eek5 said:
Some of them might work on an opening rush but I think these are more for getting back to your team once you have died on the hill. At that point everyone is focused on the hill so you can drop back in without everyone noticing.
Click to expand...
For sure, some of those are really good. Or a 6 man Lucío comp can rush point. xD
 
K

ksan

Member
Chronospherics said:
And in regards to winning and increasing your invisible rating, that's great but that rating remains hidden, so regardless of whether I win or lose it feels inconsequential. Even if I'm playing better players, I wouldn't know it, because in theory I should be progressing too. There's no sense of development of your own skills within that system. It's like being Ronaldo (not saying I am, just an example) but only being able to play anonymous equally skilled players for no tangible reward. It feels like all your effort is a waste of time..
Click to expand...

????????????????????????????????????????????

you should definitely notice it regardless
 
M

More Fun To Compute

Member
Antiwhippy said:
Sometimes I seriously have to wonder about some people's aiming. Does bastion have a slow turn rate or something? I killed so many of them today just jumping around like an asshole and shooting them with lucio or mechless D.VA.
Click to expand...

People have their sense tuned to hit things at a proper distance often have problems tracking things right next to them. It's a good strat to run right next to snipers and dance around them. They could probably kill you just as easily if their sens was higher but if they are used to hitting targets at long range they might struggle.
 
O

orthodoxy1095

Banned
Antiwhippy said:
Sometimes I seriously have to wonder about some people's aiming. Does bastion have a slow turn rate or something? I killed so many of them today just jumping around like an asshole and shooting them with lucio or mechless D.VA.
Click to expand...
Lots of people have real basic aiming skills. Jumping is a perfectly viable strat to escape.
 
T

toastyToast

Member
I managed to get my win percentage from 50 to 55 and now pretty much every game I get the opposing team moonwalks their way to the finish line with no resistance. Getting gold elims with supports. Makes no freaking sense
 
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