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[Vault Dweller 111]

I don't like the concept of a tank-class character being able to heal a group because that defeats the purpose of the tank/support synergy. If you have a tank who can heal a whole group and buff the group, and also have 100 shields on a cooldown ability that also does AOE damage, why would anyone play Reinhardt?

Also, I think the BIGGEST problem with bleeding healing skills out to other classes is that it would not solve the "problem" of dual supports, but will instead introduce the meta of dual supports stacking WITH a "support" tank or "support DPS. As it is, a team with Lucio/Zen/Soldier working together well on KotH is already a huge pain to damage. Now imagine Lucio/Zen/Soldier/HealingTank grouped together holding a chokepoint with 2 other characters adding pure DPS and benefiting from 4x healing. That makes the problem worse, not better!

Ana's grenade is actually an amazing ability trapped on a mediocre character. So often you are attacking someone and suddenly the Mercy ray or harmony orb appears on them. If you are solo it makes it incredibly difficult to finish them off, because they get a nice chunk of health every time you have to reload. That grenade on a DPS character or even a tank would be great.

 

[Einchy]

Ima be annoyed if there's some more vague ARG crap when the countdown is over.

 

[Red Arremer]

Ana's grenade is actually an amazing ability trapped on a mediocre character.

Wha...?

Ana [...] a mediocre character.

...hold on, am I reading this right?

Ana [...] mediocre

Dafuq?

 

[optimus8936]

I don't like the concept of a tank-class character being able to heal a group because that defeats the purpose of the tank/support synergy. If you have a tank who can heal a whole group and buff the group, and also have 100 shields on a cooldown ability that also does AOE damage, why would anyone play Reinhardt?

Also, I think the BIGGEST problem with bleeding healing skills out to other classes is that it would not solve the "problem" of dual supports, but will instead introduce the meta of dual supports stacking WITH a "support" tank or "support DPS. As it is, a team with Lucio/Zen/Soldier working together well on KotH is already a huge pain to damage. Now imagine Lucio/Zen/Soldier/HealingTank grouped together holding a chokepoint with 2 other characters adding pure DPS and benefiting from 4x healing. That makes the problem worse, not better!

But this all depends how long the cooldowns are. Make both of them around 10-15 seconds. Also, like I said, if you destroy that 100 health shield, it cancels the AOE attack, so if you focus on her, she can't use its effectiveness. And it also depends how much the heal effectiveness is and what the buff is. You could maybe even not have the buff, I was just sprouting ideas. And this character can't support a team like Rein because he can't block damage like Rein. I was also thinking the weapon would do 50 damage instead but also attack a bit faster because it doesn't make much sense that a Glaive would attack at the same rate as a giant hammer.

These problems you speak of depend on the exact effectiveness of the abilities and often you can use them, which I haven't gotten into yet.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

I don't have much against 2/2/2 for example, but I Feel like double support leads to a lot of the comps we have now. The dependency on 2 supports locks up quite a bit of a comp and the fact we can't have self reliant supports feels "off." It's completely unrealistic to not run 2 supports and that kind of sucks in general; I think it would be better for there to be more heroes that can offset the problems that a solo supports has rather than just put in two healing supports. Like I'd like a CC based kit like Mei to take a support slot, but since she can't heal that's unreasonable. The "need a second healer" requirement is pretty lame and the signs point to Blizzard wanting it to not be that way too.

Speed boost is just good in almost any fight because it just makes it so the other team can't react as well to a collapse. Like, you speedboost McCree to flash whoever needs to be flashed faster. You boost Reaper to get on top of people and deal more damage faster. You boost your Rein shield forward so that people can safely move up quicker. Like, since everybody is faster they get to better choose how they want to attack people, and they don't really leave a lot of room for reactions. If people try to run or split you just chase them down too.



Well, there has to be a trade off for getting healing first off. If you make a tank that has heals, you can't give them a hammer. If people stack a healing tank with more healing and supports then that's an issue. You'd really just need to make it so that if that is happening, it can still be blown through or played around with some things.

I'm kind of with you I guess. But if you know the other team is about to do the same thing I don't see how it helps that much.

Wha...?



...hold on, am I reading this right?



Dafuq?

Um, yes?

 

[Anne]

Ana's grenade is actually an amazing ability trapped on a mediocre character. So often you are attacking someone and suddenly the Mercy ray or harmony orb appears on them. If you are solo it makes it incredibly difficult to finish them off, because they get a nice chunk of health every time you have to reload. That grenade on a DPS character or even a tank would be great.

That's basically the kind of skill I'm talking about. Something on a CD that can just pop health in an emergency so the support can actually be doing somethign else. Don't have to give some DPS or Tank Mercy staff or Amp It Up, just anything to offset the exclusivity supports have on this stuff.

Soldier is a good try but his heal station is honestly just garbage.

I'm kind of with you I guess. But if you know the other team is about to do the same thing I don't see how it helps that much.

It's about managing the CDs and fights. The team that initiates first should generally win since they will be proactively applying the pressure while the other team is still reacting. So you just fight for a good speed boost chance and try to go first with it. Which is dumb.

 

[darklin0]

Wha...?



...hold on, am I reading this right?



Dafuq?

I agree, Ana is not mediocre. The problem is we are too entrenched in the Lucio Zen meta.

 

[Sn4ke_911]

Um, yes?

git gud

Ana is amazing.

 

[duckroll]

I feel that if you have a character who only has a melee attack, and has two abilities which have 10-15 second cooldowns, then that character is essentially useless regardless of what those abilities do. Overwatch is such a fast paced game that such a character would be very unappealing to play. It is the same problem that Bastion has, where his turret form is immobile and makes him a sitting duck even though he does tons of damage. Reinhardt's shield being on constant recharge is what makes him a viable character. If he had to hide in a corner and just sit there for 10 seconds before being able to do anything again after busting out an ability, no one would want to play him.

Now, if the character has a range attack of some sort instead, there might be something worth talking about. Let's keep the sword, but if you hold attack down it charges and can fire out a crescent blast? Similar to Symmetra's alt.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

git gud

Ana is amazing.

I like the character and think she has a good kit. But how can you deny that she is underwhelming compared to her counterparts?

Zen and Lucio are WAY better. If you wanna say that those two are OP that's fine. But we can only compare them to eachother.

 

[Belfast]

I agree, Ana is not mediocre. The problem is we are too entrenched in the Lucio Zen meta.

The meta is such a double edged sword. You get looked down upon for playing characters outside of it even if you play them well or creatively enough to equal or surpass characters at the top. At the end of the day, skill is going to trump a character's stats in *most* cases.

Following the meta leads to too many people playing too few characters and parroting the same set of played out strategies.

 

[Red Arremer]

Um, yes?

I don't understand. Care to elaborate why you think she is mediocre? Because nothing about her kit is mediocre at all. Her damage output is decent, her healing darts outburst the heal of even Mercy, her sleeping dart is amazing, her grenade is amazing and her ult is amazing.

What about her tells you she is "mediocre"? The fact she has a higher skill cap? Or what?

 

[optimus8936]

Like, here could be some stats on that character:

Glaive weapons: 50 damage, but attacks a little but faster than Rein.

Heal AOE: heals 100 HP to nearby allies and reduces cooldowns by 1 second for them(the cooldown thing is debatable). 8-10 second cool down, cannot give cool down buff to self, only allies.

Damage AOE: deals 50 DPS(can be higher if not enough) and gives 100 HP shield(again, can be higher if too low) and when the shield is destroyed, the ability ends(you can also cancel it yourself). 10-12 second cool down.

Ult: knocks back all enemies within a certain radius(8-10 meters?)

400 health on this character seems about right. No shields, no armor.

Basically a close quarters only enemy, has no ranged ability, so she relies on being with his/hers team.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

I don't understand. Care to elaborate why you think she is mediocre? Because nothing about her kit is mediocre at all. Her damage output is decent, her healing darts outburst the heal of even Mercy, her sleeping dart is amazing, her grenade is amazing and her ult is amazing.

What about her tells you she is "mediocre"? The fact she has a higher skill cap? Or what?

Because she is a worse pick than Lucio or Zenyatta.

A MUCH worse pick. It is what it is.

 

[KINGofCRA5H]

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748744842

6 min ago

I just wanted to give you guys a quick update on whats been going on the PTR as far as hero changes are concerned.

We just updated the build so feel free to jump on and check it out, but there is a quick change list of what's changed in this update and in the last few days.

Quick melee has changed a bit so that it should feel more consistent with other abilities. The general philosophy here is that quick melee shouldn't interrupt abilities and visa versa. There are a few exceptions to this rule. Quick movement abilities such as Tracer's Blink, Pharah's Jet Boost or Winston's Leap can work while quick melee is firing, so it isn't canceled in those cases. Ultimate abilities should now all cancel quick melee, since they are more rare special abilities that should have a higher priority.

Hanzo is feeling great on the PTR, and a lot of people have given feedback that he might now be too strong with these changes. The goal of these changes is to allow Hanzo players to feel like they have more control over their shots, and skilled Hanzo players can be much more consistent. While this is certainly true now, it might be a bit too easy to land very powerful shots with the combination of his new projectile speed and his old projectile size. So we've lowered his projectile size by 33% in the update that just went out. Overall Hanzo should still feel much better than he does on live, but check him out with this change and keep sending feedback!

The last change was to Soldier: 76's weapon. In the latest update today, you'll find that his weapon spread behaves a bit differently. In general, you'll notice the weapon starts it's spread a bit earlier but recovers the spread much more quickly. The net result of these changes should improve his effectiveness when burst-firing his weapon, and helps get back into a more accurate state quickly when you've hit max spread. The end result should increase his effectiveness at longer ranges.

Most of these changes just went up about 30 minutes ago so feel free to jump onto the PTR and give feedback! Thanks everyone.

 

[LiK]

Let's remember that Ana is quite different from consoles to PCs. I think you guys might be arguing over different things because of the controls. Most Ana players can't aim for shit on consoles to keep people consistently healed.

 

[Einchy]

3 minutes until disappointment!

 

[darklin0]

The meta is such a double edged sword. You get looked down upon for playing characters outside of it even if you play them well or creatively enough to equal or surpass characters at the top. At the end of the day, skill is going to trump a character's stats in *most* cases.

Following the meta leads to too many people playing too few characters and parroting the same set of played out strategies.

I agree. I would rather have people play what they know rather than be forced to play something they can't. Problem is that Lucio and Zen cover each others weaknesses and make them an almost necessary combo in ranked.

 

[Beckx]

I don't understand. Care to elaborate why you think she is mediocre? Because nothing about her kit is mediocre at all. Her damage output is decent, her healing darts outburst the heal of even Mercy, her sleeping dart is amazing, her grenade is amazing and her ult is amazing.

What about her tells you she is "mediocre"? The fact she has a higher skill cap? Or what?

the problem is the players, imo. if ana is primary healer the player has to dedicate themselves to that role. too many times i've just seen the ana disappear and it's because they're shooting bad guys. if you're playing ana and there's no other source of healing, then (again imo) you need to be shooting your teammates, and approach shooting bad guys like mercy does: do it only when there are no healing priorities. ana has even less margin for error on that decision than Mercy, at least on PTR with the buffs to Mercy's heal stream.

it's a great kit. i'm not good enough to play it, though.

 

[optimus8936]

Now, if the character has a range attack of some sort instead, there might be something worth talking about. Let's keep the sword, but if you hold attack down it charges and can fire out a crescent blast? Similar to Symmetra's alt.

Hmmm, I like this idea.

Maybe make it where when you do 200 damage, you have an alt fire option to shoot out a fireball that deals 100 damage. The numbers can vary, I just threw out random numbers, but I like at idea.

Also, the cool down on the AOE heal can be like 8 seconds or something.

 

[Red Arremer]

Because she is a worse pick than Lucio or Zenyatta.

A MUCH worse pick. It is what it is.

Just because Zenyatta and Lucio are overpowered in the current meta doesn't make Ana's kit or character any worse. She's not mediocre, she's great. There's just characters that are even greater.

And it does seem like the meta is going to change with the PTR patch.

 

[Pachimari]

I like the changes in that latest patch. I'll try do some more long range shots with my Soldier 76.

What is PTR? Is that the ranked play, which is also the Brawl mode?

 

[Rad-]

Slight soldier buff. Was waiting for that.

No fuck that. Taimou is just playing him. That's a huge buff looooool. Taimou saying he's OP as hell now.

 

[Veelk]

Glad to hear they are sensible about Hanzo's projectiles. Hopefully, this is a good balance. Too bad about soldier's buff, but any pro-soldier news is bad news.

Can't wait for the update to come our way... With sombra in tow.

 

[antitrop]

I like the Soldier change. Rewards skilled burst-fire and punishes spraying noobs.

 

[duckroll]

Hmmm, I like this idea.

Maybe make it where when you do 200 damage, you have an alt fire option to shoot out a fireball that deals 100 damage. The numbers can vary, I just threw out random numbers, but I like at idea.

Also, the cool down on the AOE heal can be like 8 seconds or something.

The main problem I see is that Overwatch as it is disadvantages melee characters A LOT. So if you have a tank who can't do jack shit other than melee, no shields, no armor, and has long cooldowns, man, that's gotta suck to play. Right?

I'm very curious as to how Blizzard will approach Doomfist eventually.

 

[Plywood]

 

[V-Faction]

Never liked spray n' pay anyway. Burst for life.

 

[Dongs Macabre]

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748744842

My boy Soldier finally getting some attention.

 

[optimus8936]

The main problem I see is that Overwatch as it is disadvantages melee characters A LOT. So if you have a tank who can't do jack shit other than melee, no shields, no armor, and has long cooldowns, man, that's gotta suck to play. Right?

I'm very curious as to how Blizzard will approach Doomfist eventually.

Well, you can make the abilities 8 seconds instead of 10-12. Maybe give her 200 armor out of her 400 health, so half.

 

[Plywood]

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748744842

Blegh, not a fan of any Soldier changes they've been making. Make Soldier great again.

 

[Anne]

The meta is such a double edged sword. You get looked down upon for playing characters outside of it even if you play them well or creatively enough to equal or surpass characters at the top. At the end of the day, skill is going to trump a character's stats in *most* cases.

Following the meta leads to too many people playing too few characters and parroting the same set of played out strategies.

This is mostly wrong. It doesn't matter how good you are with whatever. If there is a set of things out there that work better, that stuff will win in a match between close to equal skill levels a majority of the time. That's just how meta and stats work. There's a finite limit on how much skill can impact stuff and vice versa.

Don't get me wrong, people should explore things and unless you're playing in an environment with equally high skill players it doesn't matter as much. Like you can do whatever. But the meta exists for a reason, and that reason is that the things at the top of it work much better more often.

The goal is to make it so that diff strats and smaller skill margins mean that the tip top of the meta isn't some requirement. Unfortunately atm for OW, it's nowhere near that. Even at just upper skill levels Lucio/Zenyatta will put up way better numbers right now. That has not a lot to do with skill and a lot more to do with shit balance.

 

[Rize_21]

http://amomentincrime.com/

 

[Einchy]

http://amomentincrime.com/

OH WOW, MORE ARG BULLSHIT

 

[Raxanas]

http://amomentincrime.com/

If u check the page source it says


<!-- Bien hecho, ya tienen mi clave. Hackear este programa de televisión no tuvo chiste. Espérense a lo que sigue.-->

meaning

Well done, already they have my key. Hack this TV did not joke. Esperense what follows.

Dunno whats next

 

[Data West]

Sombra's ult is they make you play shitty ARG games to free your character's screen

 

[Rad-]

Taimou just said his guess on the new meta if these changes stick:

- Lucio pretty much dies in the meta (wtf is it really that big of a nerf?)
- Mercy is back
- Soldier replaces McCree
- Hanzo high play time even after this nerf
- No more heavy tank team comps, more DPS focused
- Ana and Symmetra will get decent playtime

 

[optimus8936]

Taimou just said his guess on the new meta if these changes stick:

- Lucio pretty much dies in the meta (wtf is it really that big of a nerf?)
- Mercy is back
- Soldier replaces McCree
- Hanzo high play time even after this nerf
- No more heavy tank team comps, more DPS focused
- Ana and Symmetra will get decent playtime

I don't buy at Lucio will be dead, but ok.

 

[Anne]

Taimou just said his guess on the new meta if these changes stick:

- Lucio pretty much dies in the meta (wtf is it really that big of a nerf?)
- Mercy is back
- Soldier replaces McCree
- Hanzo high play time even after this nerf
- No more heavy tank team comps, more DPS focused
- Ana and Symmetra will get decent playtime

Sounds reasonable.

I think he's a bit off, but not too far off.

 

[Pachimari]

What is the difference of playing Quick Play and Brawl? Does Brawl just come with the rule of max 2 of the same heroes on a team, or what else is different?

 

[Zomba13]

http://amomentincrime.com/

 

[Hydrophobic]

Taimou just said his guess on the new meta if these changes stick:

- Lucio pretty much dies in the meta (wtf is it really that big of a nerf?)
- Mercy is back
- Soldier replaces McCree
- Hanzo high play time even after this nerf
- No more heavy tank team comps, more DPS focused
- Ana and Symmetra will get decent playtime

Haha! It's my time to shine!

(76 is my most played)

 

[LiK]

What is the difference of playing Quick Play and Brawl? Does Brawl just come with the rule of max 2 of the same heroes on a team, or what else is different?

Changes every week and has specific rules/heroes. Also, none of the stats carry over. It's purely for fun.

 

[Yeef]

What is the difference of playing Quick Play and Brawl? Does Brawl just come with the rule of max 2 of the same heroes on a team, or what else is different?

Brawls have a different ruleset than normal quickly and change weekly. This week, for example, is Attack heroes only, limit 2 of each hero. So you can't play any support, defense or tank heroes.

 

[Beckx]

70% additional speed v 100% additional speed is enough that "lucio dies in the meta"?

also if soldier replaces mccree...does that mean the return of Pharmercy?

 

[Anne]

Soldier was my most played pre nerf.

Went and tried his new form on the PTR.

Daddy-76 is back for real. Did not expect him to get this buff.

70% additional speed v 100% additional speed is enough that "lucio dies in the meta"?

The current prediction that's popular is that Mercy is back and Lucio won't be as good of a combo with her or other characters so he might fall out of favor. People were already predicting Pharah being back with a buffed Mercy and a nerfed Zen.

 

[Palmer_v1]

What in the hell makes Symmetra more played in that guy's theory?

 

[Rad-]

70% additional speed v 100% additional speed is enough that "lucio dies in the meta"?

also if soldier replaces mccree...does that mean the return of Pharmercy?

Yeah he also said Pharah is decent again. Mostly because Mercy will be back and Zen nerfed.

 

[Data West]

What in the hell makes Symmetra more played in that guy's theory?

No Lucio and more DPS heavy enemy teams would make Symmetra's teleport and sentries stronger. You'd know where every flanker is at all times.

 

[matmanx1]

Soldier was my most played pre nerf.

Went and tried his new form on the PTR.

Daddy-76 is back for real. Did not expect him to get this buff.



The current prediction that's popular is that Mercy is back and Lucio won't be as good of a combo with her or other characters so he might fall out of favor. People were already predicting Pharah being back with a buffed Mercy and a nerfed Zen.

Definitely going to have to try out 76 on the PTR. I had fun trying out Eichenwalde (did I spell that right?) last night. So, potentially 76 edges out Mcree in damage? That would be awkward considering 76's utility and mobility.