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[markatisu]

Right, but it's still covered, no? So who cares?

Exactly, the rest is just semantics

 

[Puddles]

Well let's break it down a bit. Here is your post:

You are being fundamentally dishonest if you don't think the far left don't yearn for more regulations, more laws, more controls over industry, more controls over how people live their every day lives (from their diets, to how they manage their own property, to the type of vehicles they can drive, to other choices that can effect their own health) and on and on than a centrist person.

You're right about a lot of it. A lot of us would like to see sugar and high fructose corn syrup regulated, so that's a bit of control of your diet. We don't want low-efficiency, high-emission clunkers on the road, so that's control over the vehicles you can drive. We don't want people without health coverage walking around and being one accident away from having to own up to their "Never will I ask another man to live for the sake of me" Randian bullshit.

You aren't wrong. But, the people who want these regulations are trying to solve critical societal problems in the most effective possible way. The people opposed to this are on the wrong side of history.

 

[Measley]

I'm glad this contraception crap was resolved. The Right-wing media was getting downright stupid with their opposition to it.

 

[empty vessel]

There's a key quantity being repeated here. You are speaking about a libertarian viewpoint. Which is another fringe element to our political spectrum.

I was using that as an example at the other end of the spectrum. The point is that control exists (in equal measure) all along that spectrum. So the issue is never about how much control, it is about who controls. So-called "centrist" policy positions allocate control between government and the private sector just as much as far left and far right positions do. Every policy position, no matter what it is, has implications for that. Hence my assertion that we are all doing the same thing, we just have different opinions.

Your assertion was that the far left (and the far right, for that matter) wants the same amount (and type) of control over people that centrists do. Not true.

Absolutely true. Also, you seem to be confusing some things here. The far left doesn't want control for itself, as in, far leftists want to control you. Far leftists may want the government to exercise more control over certain things, but that is not far leftists controlling anybody. It is the society democratically deciding to exercise that control in a manner that the left approves. Far leftists want the society to exercise control differently than it does now. So do far rightists. Centrists and moderates want the society to exercise the control relatively the same as it does now. But it's all control.

It seems like you are shadowboxing with an imaginary libertarian. You must miss JayDubya.

No, what I'm doing is taking issue with your assertion that so-called centrists and moderates favor less control over others.

 

[maximum360]

Gave up? The end result is the same w/o alienating Liberal Catholics. This is even better than the original plan. It lets women know of the benefits of HCR and it exposes the Catholic Right as GOP shills if they complain about this

Honestly, I think the best thing out of this faux outrage is that in the end more women will now be aware of what the administration has done on their behalf in regards to health care.

 

[RDreamer]

Wow, apparently Scott Walker won't use the settlement money that comes to Wisconsin to help homeowners who lost their homes to foreclosure, instead it will be used to fix a budget shortfall.

 

[The Librarian]

Wow, apparently Scott Walker won't use the settlement money that comes to Wisconsin to help homeowners who lost their homes to foreclosure, instead it will be used to fix a budget shortfall.

Wait. You mean breaking up the unions didn't save any money??????

 

[Allard]

Wow, apparently Scott Walker won't use the settlement money that comes to Wisconsin to help homeowners who lost their homes to foreclosure, instead it will be used to fix a budget shortfall.

Does he want to lose that recall election or is he already at the point where he thinks its inevitable?

 

[Mortrialus]

Wow, apparently Scott Walker won't use the settlement money that comes to Wisconsin to help homeowners who lost their homes to foreclosure, instead it will be used to fix a budget shortfall.

A budget shortfall most likely caused by him and the state legislature.

Wait. You mean breaking up the unions didn't save any money??????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqhtUTyqVOY

He's admitted this for a while now.

 

[Wilsongt]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/live-stream-mitt-romney-cpac-speech-163639781.html

Romney cast himself as a champion of social conservatism during his tenure as governor of Massachusetts. "Less than a year after I took office, the state's supreme court inexplicably found a right to same-sex marriage in the constitution, written by John Adams," Romney said. "I presume he'd be surprised."

By barring out-of-state gay couples from getting married in the state, "On my watch, we fought hard and prevented Massachusetts from becoming the Las Vegas of gay marriage," Romney said. He added, "When I am President, I will defend the Defense of Marriage Act and I will fight for an amendment to our Constitution that defines marriage as a relationship between one man and one woman."

Romney, you are a walking gaffe machine.

 

[RDreamer]

Wait. You mean breaking up the unions didn't save any money??????

Not even Scott Walker himself thought it would save money.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yep! This actually IMO is better than the original.

1) We will most likely see the GOP go after Obama for making the poor Insurance companies carry the load. They'll argue it's another example of the assault on free enterprise and the free market. That it will force the Insurance industry to cut services.

2) I say it should be the insurance company that has to cover it anyway. Make them actually provide service for people who pay for their services.

I am actually pleasantly surprised that the administration didn't just scrap the entire thing altogether.

Can we say.................leadership?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Can we say.................leadership?

He's definitely getting better but my question is why. Is it to coincide with the upcoming election or is it that he's genuinely learning as time goes on.

 

[AlteredBeast]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/live-stream-mitt-romney-cpac-speech-163639781.html



Romney, you are a walking gaffe machine.

Those don't sound like gaffes to me.

 

[Wilsongt]

Those don't sound like gaffes to me.

I know... It still sound stupid, though.

 

[ToxicAdam]

It is stupid if you knew the history of Romney and courting the gay vote while being Governor. I'm sure someone will make an article soon pointing it out.

 

[Mike M]

I actually forgot about the banning people from out of state part.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I'm confused. How can the healthcare reform mandate that religious institutions provide healthcare to their employees? Isn't there an argument on separation of church and state?

 

[daedalius]

I'm confused. How can the healthcare reform mandate that religious institutions provide healthcare to their employees? Isn't there an argument on separation of church and state?

Because they are a business, and businesses need to provide for their employee's healthcare needs regardless of their religious orientation?

 

[Dude Abides]

I'm confused. How can the healthcare reform mandate that religious institutions provide healthcare to their employees? Isn't there an argument on separation of church and state?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_Division_v._Smith

"It is a permissible reading of the [free exercise clause]...to say that if prohibiting the exercise of religion is not the object of the [law] but merely the incidental effect of a generally applicable and otherwise valid provision, the First Amendment has not been offended."

 

[mckmas8808]

Gave up? The end result is the same w/o alienating Liberal Catholics. This is even better than the original plan. It lets women know of the benefits of HCR and it exposes the Catholic Right as GOP shills if they complain about this

And it's a win for insurance companies because they to some small degree look like the good guys, looking out for women and their health. It's a win-win-win-win-lose (DEMs, insurance companies, women, honestly concerned religious people, GOP).

 

[AlteredBeast]

And it's a win for insurance companies because they to some small degree look like the good guys, looking out for women and their health. It's a win-win-win-win-lose (DEMs, insurance companies, women, honestly concerned religious people, GOP).

I don't see how the GOP is losing in this. They effectively made the Obama administration look like they were infringing on Religious rights.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

And it's a win for insurance companies because they to some small degree look like the good guys, looking out for women and their health. It's a win-win-win-win-lose (DEMs, insurance companies, women, honestly concerned religious people, GOP).

I don't think the concern from religious people is an intellectually honest one.

I don't see how the GOP is losing in this. They effectively made the Obama administration look like they were infringing on Religious rights.

I'd say it's a win for the GOP: they took a non-issue and blew it up in the administration's face.

 

[empty vessel]

I'd say it's a win for the GOP: they took a non-issue and blew it up in the administration's face.

CNN headline on this was "Obama compromises." Which I suspect is exactly what he likes to see. Not sure that it's the best strategy, and I'm certainly personally in no mood for compromise given the state of the political landscape--drastically tilted to the far right--but it seems to be the PR image he wants to project for reelection, so it's a win for Obama in regards to that at least.

Bleh. I hate talking this kind of politics.

 

[Patrick Klepek]

I don't see how the GOP is losing in this. They effectively made the Obama administration look like they were infringing on Religious rights.

I'd say that's accurate. They get to argue Obama tried to infringe, even when everyone, on a policy level, came out just fine. Typical modern GOP.

 

[AlteredBeast]

I'd say that's accurate. They get to argue Obama tried to infringe, even when everyone, on a policy level, came out just fine. Typical modern GOP.

Definitely. Basically, everyone wins except Obama, who will be made to look like he was deliberately doing something to force religious institutions' hands on some issue or another.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

I don't see how the GOP is losing in this. They effectively made the Obama administration look like they were infringing on Religious rights.

If you polled independent voters on what they would like to see more of, compromise would be the #1 answer. Every time Obama compromises, the GOP loses.

 

[daedalius]

Man all this win/lose talk, I figured we were talking about the Superbowl instead of any sort of governance.

Oh wait, modern politics.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I don't see how the GOP is losing in this. They effectively made the Obama administration look like they were infringing on Religious rights.

Not to mention the "waking a sleeping giant" meme. It makes Obama look weak. If they weren't going to fight for this, why even pick the fucking fight? I'm sure some people brought up this compromise weeks ago when the old policy was being planned.

 

[AlteredBeast]

If you polled independent voters on what they would like to see more of, compromise would be the #1 answer. Every time Obama compromises, the GOP loses.

I am not saying otherwise. Compromise is great in politics. It would be awesome to see more of this rather than the "taking my ball and going home attitude" that prevails in the partisan world of congress. Unfortunately, though, this won't be framed as a positive compromise, but as a way that the sneaky socialist, pro-abortion Obama admin was trying to force the hand of religious institutions and go against their rights to free speech.

Its like when Verizon tried to start collecting a fee for paying online, people remember how they were going to get screwed by that fee, not the fact that they decided to compromise and not pay it. Verizon looks bad, no matter what.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

CNN headline on this was "Obama compromises." Which I suspect is exactly what he likes to see. Not sure that it's the best strategy, and I'm certainly personally in no mood for compromise given the state of the political landscape--drastically tilted to the far right--but it seems to be the PR image he wants to project for reelection, so it's a win for Obama in regards to that at least.

Bleh. I hate talking this kind of politics.

All in the game, yo.

Man all this win/lose talk, I figured we were talking about the Superbowl instead of any sort of governance.

Oh wait, politics.

 

[BigJonsson]

lol @ Newt Gingrich comparing parcels with barcodes on them to human beings :|

 

[Miletius]

I would guess it's a win in the sense that Obama gets what he wanted. In terms of political gamesmanship it's kind of been a boring week, the primaries are sort of out of season and the only interesting thing going on in CPAC. So, there was a need for the media to fill up time and this is what they chose. Worse things could have happened to the administration.

In another way you can see it as Obama gets a pat on the head from religious institutions, telling them he did well, so maybe more moderate Christians will be like "oh look, he listened." Good for him.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

"We need a 12.5% tax rate--that's the Irish rate"

When I think of economies I want to emulate, Ireland's is not one of them.

lol @ Newt Gingrich comparing parcels with barcodes on them to human beings :|

It was a terrible joke, and that's all.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Looks like Obama doesn't plan on letting the Bush tax cuts expire.

Obama will project a deficit of $901 billion for fiscal 2013 budget, based on the assumption Congress "accepts all the White House's policy recommendations for everything from ending Bush-era tax cuts for families earning $250,000 or more to programs for education, infrastructure and manufacturers."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...on-to-break-gridlock-over-budget-deficit.html


I suppose that could change if the economy starts to really heat back up.

 

[AlteredBeast]

"We need a 12.5% tax rate--that's the Irish rate"

When I think of economies I want to emulate, Ireland's is not one of them.


It was a terrible joke, and that's all.

Wow. We do not want to become a tax shelter like Ireland. We should desire to be fair to businesses big and small. 35% is too high, but 0% or even 15% is too low for multinational billion dollar corporations.

 

[Jak140]

Definitely. Basically, everyone wins except Obama, who will be made to look like he was deliberately doing something to force religious institutions' hands on some issue or another.

I'm not sure how the GOP and its base demonstrating to moderates once again how out of touch with reality they are constitutes a "win" for them. Other than in their own delusional minds, I mean.

 

[Allard]

Not to mention the "waking a sleeping giant" meme. It makes Obama look weak. If they weren't going to fight for this, why even pick the fucking fight? I'm sure some people brought up this compromise weeks ago when the old policy was being planned.

How... how does this make him look weak? Because he listened to peoples grievances and made a lip service solution that doesn't change ANYTHING about the nature of the law? You act like he gave up on the issue and just let those services do what they want. If anything he made the law better, far from a compromise.

 

[AlteredBeast]

Looks like Obama doesn't plan on letting the Bush tax cuts expire.



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...on-to-break-gridlock-over-budget-deficit.html

He wants to get reelected after all!


But, seriously, restoring tax rates on the rich are not a magic bullet. A lot more needs to be done in the budget besides merely making people 250k and above pay a few percentage points more in taxes. Drastically cutting military would help, but even that is only going to put military towns across the country deeper into the red if there ends up being less active military presence in those towns. Complex situation.

 

[AlteredBeast]

I'm not sure how the GOP and its base demonstrating to moderates once again how out of touch with reality they are constitutes a "win" for them. Other than in their own delusional minds, I mean.

How... how does this make him look weak? Because he listened to peoples grievances and made a lip service solution that doesn't change ANYTHING about the nature of the law? You act like he gave up on the issue and just let those services do what they want. If anything he made the law better, far from a compromise.

You guys don't get it. It isn't the reality of the situation what ends up in the 100 IQ bracket countrywide. It is all in the framing and messaging. GOP has it; dems and obama admin don't.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

Looks like Obama doesn't plan on letting the Bush tax cuts expire.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...t-deficit.html

I suppose that could change if the economy starts to really heat back up.

This is just really dry humor, right? EGTRRA is here to stay.

 

[PhoenixDark]

How... how does this make him look weak? Because he listened to peoples grievances and made a lip service solution that doesn't change ANYTHING about the nature of the law? You act like he gave up on the issue and just let those services do what they want. If anything he made the law better, far from a compromise.

There are already laws in place that make religious hospitals provide contraception. This law is far from some insane power grab. Not one time did Obama come out and point this out - or anything actually. Now the WH "caves" despite polls showing people don't care, even Catholic women?

As AlteredBeast and others point out, it's just a giant fail. As I argue every time Obama does this: why pick a fight if you're unwilling to fight? Does anyone honestly believe no aides knew this would stir republican rhetoric, they'd throw a fit etc? They do this every time, and every time the Obama admin watches the building burn for 48 hours before calling the fire department.

 

[mckmas8808]

Wow, apparently Scott Walker won't use the settlement money that comes to Wisconsin to help homeowners who lost their homes to foreclosure, instead it will be used to fix a budget shortfall.

The governors have control of that money? Why?

 

[Snake]

They effectively made the Obama administration look like they were infringing on Religious rights.

Only to people who were going to believe that no matter what.

 

[adamsappel]

Not to mention the "waking a sleeping giant" meme. It makes Obama look weak. If they weren't going to fight for this, why even pick the fucking fight? I'm sure some people brought up this compromise weeks ago when the old policy was being planned.

I'm not buying into the "Obama is playing 7th-dimensional chess" meme, but maybe he's learned that if he doesn't compromise first, he'll get closer to what he actually wants. If he'd started out from the compromised position, we'd now be giving tax breaks to insurance companies that agree to cover contraceptives. The GOP is never going to say yes to the first proposal, no matter how reasonable or popular it might be.

 

[Plinko]

Wow, apparently Scott Walker won't use the settlement money that comes to Wisconsin to help homeowners who lost their homes to foreclosure, instead it will be used to fix a budget shortfall.

Wow. That should be illegal.

 

[Aaron Strife]

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...ministration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

Obama 50 Romney 40

DOOMED!

 

[daedalius]

I'm not buying into the "Obama is playing 7th-dimensional chess" meme, but maybe he's learned that if he doesn't compromise first, he'll get closer to what he actually wants. If he'd started out from the compromised position, we'd now be giving tax breaks to insurance companies that agree to cover contraceptives. The GOP is never going to say yes to the first proposal, no matter how reasonable or popular it might be.

This wouldn't surprise me actually.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...ministration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

Obama 50 Romney 40

DOOMED!

But PD told me!!!

 

[Jak140]

You guys don't get it. It isn't the reality of the situation what ends up in the 100 IQ bracket countrywide. It is all in the framing and messaging. GOP has it; dems and obama admin don't.

The people who buy the "Obama is in a war on religion" line are the same people who claim he is a marxist atheist muslim from Kenya, who would have never voted for him anyway. Coming out strong against birth control, something that the vast majority of people in the US will use in their lifetime is not how you win swing voters, it's how you scare the shit of them and make them run for the hills in the opposite direction.