He looks like he's about to cry too.
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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
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He looks like he's about to cry too.
You seem to forget that the definitions of "moderate" have swung to the right NOTICEABLY even in just the past few years due to this kind of obstructionism. This isn't "moderate".
Bingo.
Black Republican
Member
9 more hours
worldrunover
Member
I'm assuming because of its direct link to social security revenue?
do you have a link?
empty vessel
Member
That's probably it, and is the reason they should be de-linked post haste. Imagine if that were part of the Democratic demand for negotiations. How far would that have dragged the deal closer to the center?
But note that the payroll tax cut did not affect the accounting for social security. The cut provided that the lost "revenue" would be "reimbursed" from the general fund. If anything, that should have been pushed further and further until the whole thing was just accounted for by the government's general spending.
(Note that there is no reason why social security ought to be separately accounted for. The only thing it accomplishes is ensuring the program continues to be pegged to a regressive tax on work. The taxes don't actually fund anything. It's just an accounting mechanism that has the effect of providing the illusion of limitations to the program.)
McCain's not interested.
Black Republican
Member
oh no you did not imply..
The payroll tax cut will expire without much ado from institutionally-experienced liberals because it has been essential to developing the "earned" aspect of earned benefits such as Social Security and Medicare with the public at large. When they were first looking at a temporary payroll tax cut you may remember hearing critics from the left saying Obama is doing this to undermine SS/Medicare, and to create a culture where people won't feel like they're entitled to those benefits anymore. Of course, I'm sure those same critics will be intellectually consistent and not grasp at straws to criticize Barack Obama.
edit: for the record, I wouldn't mind if they permanently got rid of payroll taxes.
Obama to change party identification tomorrow, according to sources within PoliGAF.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Aaron Strife
Banned
How did he cave?
Obama's opening move was 200k.
Boehner's opening move was 1 million.
Obama's compromise was at 400k, and that was with SS benefits cut and a bunch of other shit.
The current deal is 400k without any of that.
Cave would be going for the million, or an extension of everything.
Unless you'd prefer we go over the cliff, which is valid but Obama clearly doesn't want to.
worldrunover
Member
What happens later today/tomorrow when the senate passes this with ~65 votes and then the House GOP kills it? Will Boehner even put it up for a vote if it doesn't have majority of the majority support, but may pass with the help of Democrats?
Papa Joe doesn't reveal his sources!
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
I MISSED PAPA JOE!!!!
Sorry, can you explain this a bit? I don't really know how much of the fiscal details work for these programs.
It sounds sort of like what you're saying is that the taxes to fund Social Security is a bit like the debt ceiling fight; that Social Security is just a program that is going to continue and it's going to continue to take money regardless, it's just that Congress has to keep finding ways to account for the money it takes up -- not that, unless X goes into effect Social Security "expires" in 20XX.
Am I understanding correctly?
el retorno
Member
I think most people realize this isn't so much of a cave as is does nothing but breaks norquest's power. See Chichikov anal analogy
Because for the longest time, the tax cuts were set to end for earners of $250,000. Remember him "getting that for free?" He's continually brought up this dollar amount, and now he's changing it.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/12/why-is-obama-caving-on-taxes.html
I'm back, baby!
The people who are upset seem to think that going over the cliff would guarantee that liberals get everything they want. It won't. Hell, the whole concept that going over the cliff would be good hinges on the GOP being reasonable. They've proven time and time again that they aren't. This is a really good deal and is basically the essence of what compromise should be. In fact, I'll be mildly shocked if the House even passes it because they are basically getting absolutely nothing that they want in this deal.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
It's interesting to see the two different lines of thinking.
Democrats "compromise" essentially to just get it passed.
Republicans however see them as having "gotten" nothing.
empty vessel
Member
The way I would put it is this: social security is a program in which the government promises to pay X amount of dollars annually to retirees. If you eliminate the payroll tax, then the government can still pay X amount of dollars annually to retirees. Why couldn't it? Even if one believed that taxes finance government spending (instead of the other way around, which is the reality), then any "financing" necessary can come from other tax sources that aren't painfully regressive and that do not punish work.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
That's still not a cave. That's a compromise. A cave is giving in to every and all demands.
He had to return to the PoliGAF floor to begin negotiations with Majority Leader PhoenixDark on a 100-posts-per-page mandate on all users that goes into effect at midnight tonight.
cartoon_soldier
Member
The tax deal should have been to keep the tax cut for 250k and below (actually I would even say better would be 150k single, 250k married) and keep the payroll tax cut. That increase will have a negative effect on disposable income of middle class already.
Oh and keep the defense spending cuts, eliminate waste. Eliminate Generals living like Presidents. Cut projects that have been delayed by decades and are over budget by a significant amount.
Oh and keep the defense spending cuts, eliminate waste. Eliminate Generals living like Presidents. Cut projects that have been delayed by decades and are over budget by a significant amount.
I missed you so much Papa Joe! <3
Heh, OOPS, I was stupid. Dur, you were just saying Social Security is a regressive tax -- which it is, I just guess it's not really often phrased that way which confused me.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
The Librarian
Banned
Sequester issue hasn't been resolved, among other things.
Honestly? With that rate, you're basically hitting a lot of upper-middle class folks. Perhaps I'm a bit biased, since my father makes about 150k and we are upper middle class, but those figures are typical of many areas of suburban New Jersey. Yes New Jersey is a wealthy state, but if the goal is to reduce income inequality by taxing the wealthiest of society while preserving the tax cuts for the middle class, I think those rates go over the line, imo.
Remember, in many areas of the Northeast, those income figures ARE middle class. Not lower middle class of course, but certainly still middle class.
Hands off, Papa Joe is mine!
Step off brah.
I dunno. I think it does, but I have also heard that it pushed it to either a 90 days or a year out.
Of course it hasn't. Nevermind what I said.
worldrunover
Member
That's one of the big things still up in the air. GOP wants to delay it two months; I think Dems want to delay it two years.
Hands off, Papa Joe is mine!
Hey, now. My private Amtrak car has plenty of room for you both.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
lol!!
Obama has set a deficit reduction target. He proposed getting to that target mostly through revenues. He will get ~1/2 of the proposed revenues, assuming the current frame work holds (and it does not look like it is). If he holds to that deficit reduction target, the rest comes from spending cuts. The question is from where. Again, assuming he keeps his own self-imposed target.
This is not an obscure or difficult thought process. It's the heart the entire issue: Obama and the GOP largely agree on deficit reduction (sadly). Obama wants to do it with a richer mix of revenue than the GOP (who want zero). The more the mix tilts away from revenue, the more the conversation revolves around spending cuts. And the more tax policy gets settled right now, the less levers Obama has to use as leverage during those negotiations.
I'm honestly baffled at your reply.
Didn't see this posted among the Cliffchat.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/159587/hillary-clinton-barack-obama-admired-2012.aspx
I'm sort of surprised that Slick Willy doesn't place a little higher.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/159587/hillary-clinton-barack-obama-admired-2012.aspx
I'm sort of surprised that Slick Willy doesn't place a little higher.
What's being floated around isn't the "Grand Bargain," it's simply something to prevent much of the tax hikes from happening because they can't agree on anything. As far as I'm aware, this particular plan says nothing of a specific deficit reduction goal and cuts that could potentially happen to meet said goal as this has no SS or Medicare cuts within it. I may be wrong, though, so feel free to correct me.
The Librarian
Banned
Looks like unemployment insurance will not be paid for, haha.
Aaron Strife
Banned
I think his problem is that by passing the tax portion now, Obama's giving up leverage he'd have in a broader debate on deficit spending/debt ceiling hoo-hah.
worldrunover
Member
Good. Not everything needs to be offset. Especially something as stimulative as unemployment insurance.
Did I miss the post or did no one post that McConnell has said to pass the tax portion now?
MSNBC has a banner headline up: "BREAKING NEWS: Republican Sen. McConnell says there is agreement on tax rates."
There's not even a story to click through to at this time. Don't know what this means. Just a weather advisory.
NRO has a story up saying McConnell has said "pass the tax rate portion now."
From NRO [I'm quoting NRO!!!!]:
But first, he’d like the Senate to vote on the tax aspect of the deal as soon as possible. “I can report we’ve reached an agreement on all of the tax issues,” he said. “Let’s pass the tax relief portion now.”
Now, CNN has this.
Some tweets:
Lisa Desjardins
✔
@LisaDCNN
MCCONNELL: let's pass the tax portion now, let's take what we have and get moving.
31 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
Deirdre Walsh@deirdrewalshcnn
McConnell reports that deal done on the TAX pieces - says let's pass tax portion now
31 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavori
MSNBC has a banner headline up: "BREAKING NEWS: Republican Sen. McConnell says there is agreement on tax rates."
There's not even a story to click through to at this time. Don't know what this means. Just a weather advisory.
NRO has a story up saying McConnell has said "pass the tax rate portion now."
From NRO [I'm quoting NRO!!!!]:
But first, he’d like the Senate to vote on the tax aspect of the deal as soon as possible. “I can report we’ve reached an agreement on all of the tax issues,” he said. “Let’s pass the tax relief portion now.”
Now, CNN has this.
Some tweets:
Lisa Desjardins
✔
@LisaDCNN
MCCONNELL: let's pass the tax portion now, let's take what we have and get moving.
31 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavorite
Deirdre Walsh@deirdrewalshcnn
McConnell reports that deal done on the TAX pieces - says let's pass tax portion now
31 Dec 12 ReplyRetweetFavori
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