Of course, the Senate can't take it up until the filibuster negotiations are concluded.
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PoliGAF 2013 |OT1| Never mind, Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
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Of course, the Senate can't take it up until the filibuster negotiations are concluded.
Wait... So we don't have a month?
We do. But the Senate can't do anything else until they come back from recess, and they can't do that until the filibuster reform plan is hashed out.
empty vessel
Member
I think they very much do want the sequestration cuts. Well, not the military cuts, but everything else. So they will demand spending cuts in exchange for raising the debt limit, and Obama's only leverage will be the military cuts. The problem is that (1) many Democrats also oppose the military cuts; and (2) both parties are basically pro-austerity otherwise and support large cuts. So we'll probably get elimination or sharp reduction of the military cuts in exchange for raising the debt limit. Oh, and increased unemployment and possibly a shiny new recession and immeasurable lost social wealth. But that's not important. No, abstract numbers must be conserved! Everything else be damned.
speculawyer
Member
How very Christian of her.
Yeah, German pronunciation of Boehner would be halfway in between boner and buhner. I'm guessing his family adapted the pronunciation to Bay-ner before "boner" entered the vernacular though.
She's such an idiot.
Keep up the good fight!
Aaron Strife
Banned
The first of many!
Giant Panda
Member
So on Fox news they just brought up the $1 trillion coin idea, and essentially spent 5 min. laughing at how "silly" it was. They didn't actually name any reasons why it wouldn't work. Even more the reason why Obama should do this now, to make these guys look like buffoons.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I wonder what Obama's lawyers have said about it. I get the impression they advised against the 14 amendment option in 2011
Rocket Scientist
Member
I don't understand what good delaying changing the Senate rules is going to do when all you need is a majority anyway. Wtf is Reid doing.
empty vessel
Member
It's like them holding up a green Federal Reserve "note" and laughing at the absurdity of it.
Ugh. Exactly how does Reid plan to turn filibuster reform into a bipartisan compromise?
He's trying to see if he can get an agreement from the GOP on that.
Nothing terribly wrong in trying, as long as they don't cave on the talking filibuster.
To be fair, the it is kind of absurd that we'd even have to mint a coin and then deposit it somewhere in order to get marked up on the books so we can sell bonds again to finance our debt. I mean why not just like... print as we go. The minting of a coin and putting it in a vault somewhere is just absurd.
empty vessel
Member
It totally is. One part of the government--the Treasury--mints a coin and deposits it with another part of the government--the Fed--and then the Treasury can spend dollars. (To be fair, the Treasury could mint and spend coins directly into the economy, but that also would be silly because fuck coins.)
But one thing to note is that if we did that, the Treasury then wouldn't have to sell any more bonds, which is how it would get around the debt limit. It could then just cut checks with the credit the Fed provides it from the coin to avoid any defaults and also to faithfully execute whatever programs Congress has passed according to the budget given by Congress. Indeed, there's no reason to limit the size of the coin to $1 trillion. It could be a $60 trillion coin. Bonds wouldn't need to be sold for a while because the Treasury would have direct access to all the dollars it required for a while. And note that this wouldn't be inflationary, because the coin doesn't circulate in the economy. It just funds the Treasury's bank account with the Fed. And the government's spending would still be curtailed by whatever budgets Congress made.
Of course, Congress could also just make a law requiring the Fed to credit the Treasury's account in the dollar amount required by its budgets and skip all the ridiculous fiction.
Black Mamba
Member
It could cause inflation because if you're spending money from this deposit while no longer issuing bonds, you're not removing the money from the lenders, you're simply increasing the amount of money.
That said, I don't think it would cause inflation right now because those lenders aren't spending the money, regardless.
And we could use some inflation.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Sandy Relief or Obamacare Repeal? Good to know things haven't changed in the 113th Congress.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Wait wut? I'm at work...are some republicans actually endorsing that, or is this just a reference to Bachman's repeal bill.
empty vessel
Member
The money that the government collects when it sells bonds is not deflationary because the money is already marked for saving and hence also is not money that will be circulating, i.e., it constitutes demand leakage. That's why the person is buying the bond in the first place. So if the person cannot buy a bond with the money marked for saving, the person's saving will likely just be expressed in a different way. (The government could still operate a bond program if it wanted to in order to provide for the public a risk-free way to save money, it just wouldn't be connected to its spending any more.)
But if anything, ending the bond program is less inflationary than having it, because having the bond program requires the government to also spend on interest. In other words, the bond program is just another form of a spending program. If you eliminate the bond program, you eliminate the additional (and unnecessary) net spending that is the interest payment.
Does that make sense? I probably could explain the point better.
Black Mamba
Member
It does. But in a hot economy you'd be more likely to see short term inflation if it eliminates the bond market because there's a good chance that the lender will either substitute in spending or save elsewhere where it would expand the money supply (since borrowing is also hot).
Long term you could be correct that it would have less inflationary pressure as there is no interest spending.
It is incorrect to say the money marked for savings in gov't bonds is the same as money marked for savings in other ways. The affects are actually different depending on the state of the economy. Right now, it's probably the same. Other times, not. It is also incorrect to assume one will substitute saving in treasury bonds into only alternative saving.
empty vessel
Member
One thing that is important to remember when talking about things being inflationary but that often goes unsaid is that it is not a one way street. Potentially inflationary acts (cutting taxes, increasing spending, not selling bonds, if we assume that potentially inflationary) can be counteracted by deflationary acts (raising taxes, decreasing spending).
Black Mamba
Member
Of course. When I make a comment like that it should be assumed I mean "when all else equal."
Like I said, we could actually use some inflation right now.
Like I said, we could actually use some inflation right now.
empty vessel
Member
I wasn't accusing you of thinking otherwise. I just think it's something that needs to be said out loud more often.
RustyNails
Member
What's this deal with CNN saying 77% of people will pay more taxes in one article, and saying it prevents tax increases for 98% of americans in another? I also read an article saying this deal increases debt. Wat.
The Librarian
Banned
Biden gonna Biden: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/01/joe-biden-frisky-senate.php
It let the payroll tax cut expire. So it prevented increased income taxes for 98% of Americans, but overall 77% of people will pay more taxes. It increases debt compared to post cliff (when it was signed into law). Post cliff meant all the tax cuts expired. Tax cuts add to the debt.
I fucking love this guy. If Hillary doesn't run, I'm supporting Biden (if he runs).
PhoenixDark
Banned
Payroll tax cut expired, so most people will have smaller checks this year. Basically if you make between 200-350k you hit the jackpot with the fiscal cliff, but most people under that income will lose up to $1000 this year
Obama's economists must not be worried about this, because there was zero push to extend the payroll taxes. Or perhaps he's waiting for the SOTU?
Black Mamba
Member
Which also gives us the recent hilarity in the GOP. Yesterday some have complained that these tax cuts needs to be offset by spending cuts.
Apparently, the GOP no longer believes tax cuts pay for themselves over time which is something they've argued since Reagan (even though their own economists disagreed).
Love Biden. Dude is just awesome.
Apparently the only tax cuts that pay for themselves are the ones that mostly rich people get?
Or maybe they're finally admitting we're on the other side of the laffer curve?
Or quite possibly tax cuts given out by black people make the electorate nervous and they just hide their money instead of spending it?
PhoenixDark
Banned
The CBO report was amazing to me because it so casually disregarded supply side nonsense on that. Naturally republicans argued it was a debt hike of 4T, whereas if it had been passed a couple days earlier it would have cut the deficit.
Real life Biden is more unbelievably awesome than The Onion's Biden.
bodyofanamerican
Member
I can't believe guys like Ted Cruz (he's on CNN right now).
Cruz- "I'd love to work with President Obama if he was reasonable like Pres. Clinton."
Wolf- "So you would have voted for the fiscal cliff deal?"
C- "No."
W- "So, you'd vote to raise millions of people in Texas's taxes?"
C- "Obama and Reid want to jack up taxes! We're gonna use the debt ceiling to break him!"
Cruz is a joke. A Joke. Wolf keeps pointing out that the Republicans are minorities of 2 of the 3 branches of gov't and he just won't acknowledge that. And he keeps referring to the fiscal cliff as "the default".
Wolf: "What would you do about immigration?"
Cruz: "Secure the border, lower taxes on legal immigrants".
Cruz- "I'd love to work with President Obama if he was reasonable like Pres. Clinton."
Wolf- "So you would have voted for the fiscal cliff deal?"
C- "No."
W- "So, you'd vote to raise millions of people in Texas's taxes?"
C- "Obama and Reid want to jack up taxes! We're gonna use the debt ceiling to break him!"
Cruz is a joke. A Joke. Wolf keeps pointing out that the Republicans are minorities of 2 of the 3 branches of gov't and he just won't acknowledge that. And he keeps referring to the fiscal cliff as "the default".
Wolf: "What would you do about immigration?"
Cruz: "Secure the border, lower taxes on legal immigrants".
PhoenixDark
Banned
Dude is an insufferable slappy, and even Maddow gives him the "wtf" face a lot.
I find myself saying that about Ed. I never really accidentally have Sharpton on.
Black Mamba
Member
Don't forget Schultz.
Schultz: As I'm blowing Obama, should I tickle his balls?
Text A for yes
Text B for no
Text C for Just put em in my mouth
Sometimes I just leave on one of the news channels in case breaking news happens or something like that, so tonight my fiancee wanted MSNBC so I left on MSNBC. And then Al Sharpton came on and I instantly regretted it lol
Black Mamba said:
My God the Ed Schultz polls are the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen. I don't think I once seen a result that wasn't 98% yes (or no), and always in the affirmative for some Democratic ballwashing leading bullshit.
I only really like Rachel Maddow, but even then only because she seems like a generally nice and genuine person who doesn't mind taking Obama to task at least on SOME occasions. But even she can be insufferable at times.
PhoenixDark
Banned
MSNBC needs someone else to compliment Maddow imo; ie another young, entertaining yet informative personality. Matthews is their "statesman," Schultz is the partisan cheerleader, and O'Donnell is the...partisan cheerleader too. I'd dump Schultz or move his show into the early afternoon.
Chelsea Clinton perhaps
Chelsea Clinton perhaps
Black Mamba
Member
LOL.
I've seen Ezra co-host. Don't think he's very good at it and he seems to have a lisp.
Just move Krystal Ball up. At least she's perdy.
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