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PoliGAF 2014 |OT| Kay Hagan and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad News

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Diablos

Member
WASHINGTON -- Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) is putting together a bill to extend unemployment insurance, but the measure is already facing skepticism from Senate Republicans and stern opposition from Republicans in the House.

Now, it appears, House Democrats aren’t entirely on board.

From leadership on down, House Democratic lawmakers said Friday that they had reservations with the policies being proposed by Reid and Senate Democrats to cover the cost of the 11-month unemployment insurance extension.

When asked if he was supportive of provisions in the Senate Democratic offer that would use cuts elsewhere to offset cost, House Minority Whip Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) said no. In particular, the Hoyer said he was disturbed that the party would extend sequestration cuts to mandatory spending as a means of finding savings.

“I’m not happy with the sequester at all, as you know,” Hoyer said. “I’m a big opponent of the sequester. I think the sequester is a mindless way to get to fiscal discipline… The premise that the sequester is a policy on which we ought to fund things I think is not a good one, whether it is 2024 or 2014.”

Under the Reid proposal, approximately $17 billion would be raised for an unemployment insurance extension this year by prolonging sequestration’s 2 percent cut to Medicare into 2024. The same ploy was used to help pass a budget deal this past December with bipartisan support (the cuts were extended into 2022 and 2023). But Hoyer argued that to do so again made little policy sense.

“Frankly, if you adopt that logic, why don’t we extend it to 2054 and fund everything we want to do?” Hoyer said. “I just think the sequester is not a proper premise on which to base funding.”

Hoyer's Maryland colleague, House Budget Committee Ranking Member Chris Van Hollen, said he was fine with the continuation of sequestration, though he opened the door to replacing it with savings from a respective farm bill.

However, other Democrats shared Hoyer's skepticism. One House member, who spoke openly on condition of anonymity, said the party was completely upending its messaging by going down this route again.

“We have been saying the sequester is the worst thing in the world and now we want to extend it?” the lawmaker said.

Other House members wondered why the party was compromising at this point at all.

“I don’t think you just sit there and negotiate with yourself and capitulate,” said Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-Conn.).

It’s both hard to speculate and also premature to predict whether House Democratic angst with the Senate Democrat’s unemployment extension bill will result in actual voting opposition. Reid’s legislation, after all, could still be changed (his staff said he would allow Republican amendments to be considered next week), and even then House Republicans don’t have to consider the same measure. They could pursue their own, or do nothing at all.

But if a bill is to eventually make it to the House floor, it will almost certainly have to pass with Democratic support (too many conservatives don’t support extending the program under any circumstance), making the criticisms from Hoyer and others relevant.

Senate Democratic leadership has rationalized the decision to extend sequestration cuts by arguing that by the time 2024 rolls around, lawmakers surely will have been able to find a way to replace them. And, indeed, House Ways and Means Ranking Member Sandy Levin (D-Mich.) all but admitted that the sequester pay-for was a mirage.

It “probably” will be replaced down the road, he said, adding, “I don’t want to say that in public because then it makes it imaginary. But this was Paul Ryan’s proposal for two years [as part of the budget agreement].”

Though he downplayed the significance of the sequestration extension, Levin had concerns with other provisions in Reid's bill. Language prohibiting Social Security disability assistance recipients from simultaneously receiving unemployment insurance was overly punitive, he argued, though he added that the Reid version was much kinder than the Senate Republican one.

The bigger problem for Levin was that the Senate proposal would chop the size of the unemployment insurance benefits down by $8 billion. And though the cuts would be felt primarily by recipients in states with low unemployment rates, $8 billion, Levin said, “is not chump change."
Dems are now arguing with each other, GOP continues to not give a fuck either way at a distance. Would I be acting prematurely if I said the extension is dead, 3 months or 30? :p

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...-insurance_n_4577104.html?utm_hp_ref=politics
 
Well it looks like Reid is trying to get 3 months passed while committing to (in the same bill, even, unless I read wrong) finding a way to pay for the rest of the year, signaling that he's willing to give in to the GOP's demands. I doubt even that would be good enough.

there's this thing called the house. It isn't passing.

What incentive do they have?
 

Sibylus

Banned
Wonder why it is nobody talks much about the unending tragedy of freshly-baked unborn children failing to implant by the trillions, oftentimes without realization, much less fanfare. Do they get another go again in the system on account of complete obscurity?
 
Democrats can't find 17b to cut without gimmicks? I don't agree that we should "pay" for an extension, the point is moreso that democrats can't even come up with a way to beat republicans at their own game, 4 years later. Sequestration might be gone by 2024, why would republicans agree to that gimmick?

Same problem I have with the White House. If you know republicans want things to be "paid" for, doesn't it make sense to target some spending the government can do without - not to surrender to republicans, but to call their bluff. If it's all about paying for shit, they should support anything that is paid for. Unless they're playing games, which they usually are.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Marco Rubio said:
Raising the minimum wage may poll well, but having a job that pays $10 an hour is not the American dream.

Therefore people should be satisfied with $7.25 an hour.
 
Democrats can't find 17b to cut without gimmicks? I don't agree that we should "pay" for an extension, the point is moreso that democrats can't even come up with a way to beat republicans at their own game, 4 years later. Sequestration might be gone by 2024, why would republicans agree to that gimmick?.
The white house is in favor of not paying for it.
 
Democrats can't find 17b to cut without gimmicks? I don't agree that we should "pay" for an extension, the point is moreso that democrats can't even come up with a way to beat republicans at their own game, 4 years later. Sequestration might be gone by 2024, why would republicans agree to that gimmick?

Same problem I have with the White House. If you know republicans want things to be "paid" for, doesn't it make sense to target some spending the government can do without - not to surrender to republicans, but to call their bluff. If it's all about paying for shit, they should support anything that is paid for. Unless they're playing games, which they usually are.
PD you know the GOP just doesn't want to pass unemployment extensions, why should Obama put something on the table unless he knows he can get something for it?

That's like including Social Security cuts in a budget agreement, which Obama did and you've lambasted him for "caving"
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Does that line actually make sense in context? I mean, wtf is he talking about?

The american dream is about someday being in the position where you get to be the one that takes advantage of others by paying them slave salaries.

I mean if you can't take advantage of others after you make it to the top, what's the point of making it to the top?
 
PD you know the GOP just doesn't want to pass unemployment extensions, why should Obama put something on the table unless he knows he can get something for it?

That's like including Social Security cuts in a budget agreement, which Obama did and you've lambasted him for "caving"

Social security cuts should never be on the table, it's an entirely different issue. We're talking about 17b from the budget. Democrats can't find that amount to call republicans' bluff? It would change how the story is being covered, and destroy the current GOP talking point about really really wanting to extend UE benefits but only if it's paid for. Well find the 17b and put that to the test.
 
Social security cuts should never be on the table, it's an entirely different issue. We're talking about 17b from the budget. Democrats can't find that amount to call republicans' bluff? It would change how the story is being covered, and destroy the current GOP talking point about really really wanting to extend UE benefits but only if it's paid for. Well find the 17b and put that to the test.
Their bluff? They'll say no anyways.
 
Kansas court could remove the requirement that the state government has to fund the public school system.

I'd recommend every single person who posts in this thread to read that, it's absolutely terrifying and seeing the Tea Party's endgame is like staring into the depths of hell.

Even worse:

The signals thus far are not promising. If the Kansas Supreme Court orders restoration of the funding, legislators are threatening to amend the state’s Constitution by removing the requirement for “suitable” school funding and to strip Kansas courts of jurisdiction to hear school finance cases altogether. And if the amendment fails, they have vowed to defy any court order for increased funding or, at the very least, take the money from higher education.
 

Diablos

Member
Social security cuts should never be on the table, it's an entirely different issue. We're talking about 17b from the budget. Democrats can't find that amount to call republicans' bluff? It would change how the story is being covered, and destroy the current GOP talking point about really really wanting to extend UE benefits but only if it's paid for. Well find the 17b and put that to the test.
I tend to agree with this. Find the 17b and see how the GOP scrambles to avoid it. It might not work after all, but it's better than the current state of things which appears to be Democrats fighting with each other, and a select few Republican Senators semi-on board quietly in the corner.
 

Piecake

Member
Kansas court could remove the requirement that the state government has to fund the public school system.

I'd recommend every single person who posts in this thread to read that, it's absolutely terrifying and seeing the Tea Party's endgame is like staring into the depths of hell.

Even worse:

Destroying the evil teachers unions by punishing little kids and poor people. The republican dream.

Yea, I saw this in the NY Times a few days ago and its just mind boggling that people actually advocate for this shit. Do they want to make Kansas dumber and their workers less competitive? Gotta get back to those traditional values and away from that fancy, corrupting learnin it seems
 

Mike M

Nick N
So, why exactly does a vet get a Dr. in front of his name? Did he actually get a ph.d in animal medicine or some shit? (hard to believe with his insane views on science)

Because he (presumably) has a doctorate in veterinary medicine? Should vets be excluded from calling themselves doctors because they don't work on people?
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I've heard that it's even harder to get into veterinary school than it is to get into medical school.

That doesn't sound shocking. People are the same underneath and animals are all subtly different from each other. Plus doctors don't have to put people down.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
That doesn't sound shocking. People are the same underneath and animals are all subtly different from each other. Plus doctors don't have to put people down.

Hey, Obamacare just went into effect last week. Let's give it some time.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Kansas court could remove the requirement that the state government has to fund the public school system.

I'd recommend every single person who posts in this thread to read that, it's absolutely terrifying and seeing the Tea Party's endgame is like staring into the depths of hell.

Even worse:

Well, if you want to control the population to make then believe your ideas are good, one way to do it is to make their education as shit as possible so they don't learn the critical skills they need to realize that what is being spewed like frothing, steaming shit from the mouths of Republicans is just that. Shit.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
Kansas court could remove the requirement that the state government has to fund the public school system.

I'd recommend every single person who posts in this thread to read that, it's absolutely terrifying and seeing the Tea Party's endgame is like staring into the depths of hell.

Even worse:

The courts should absolutely be stripped of jurisdiction over the question of education funding. That's as pure a political question as can be imagined. If Kansans are not content with the amount of funding provided by current law, they have a perfectly adequate remedy through the political process. There's simply no justification to substitute the opinion of a handful of unelected judges* for the opinion of the elected legislature in deciding what amount of funding constitutes "suitable provision."

*Kansas Supreme Court justices and judges on the Kansas Court of Appeals are initially appointed by the governor, though subject to a public retention vote at the conclusion of each term (4 years for Ct. App. judges; 6 for SCOKS justices).
 
Part of it is older people retiring, no doubt. But there are also a lot of people who have simply given up trying to find a job. Given how negative polls show people feel about the economy, it's not surprising.

We're fine. Nothing will get done as long as Obama is president, and the economy can simply recover slowly.
fixed.
 
The courts should absolutely be stripped of jurisdiction over the question of education funding. That's as pure a political question as can be imagined. If Kansans are not content with the amount of funding provided by current law, they have a perfectly adequate remedy through the political process. There's simply no justification to substitute the opinion of a handful of unelected judges* for the opinion of the elected legislature in deciding what amount of funding constitutes "suitable provision."

*Kansas Supreme Court justices and judges on the Kansas Court of Appeals are initially appointed by the governor, though subject to a public retention vote at the conclusion of each term (4 years for Ct. App. judges; 6 for SCOKS justices).

Did you miss the part where Kansas' constitution guarantees suitable spending to provide free education to all? That makes it a legal question for courts.
 

remist

Member
The courts should absolutely be stripped of jurisdiction over the question of education funding. That's as pure a political question as can be imagined. If Kansans are not content with the amount of funding provided by current law, they have a perfectly adequate remedy through the political process. There's simply no justification to substitute the opinion of a handful of unelected judges* for the opinion of the elected legislature in deciding what amount of funding constitutes "suitable provision."

*Kansas Supreme Court justices and judges on the Kansas Court of Appeals are initially appointed by the governor, though subject to a public retention vote at the conclusion of each term (4 years for Ct. App. judges; 6 for SCOKS justices).
It is very specifically not a political question because the people who wrote the Kansas constitution(and the people who voted to ratify it) decided it was important not to subject education to whismy of politics. I really don't understand why anyone would want it to be.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
Did you miss the part where Kansas' constitution guarantees suitable spending to provide free education to all? That makes it a legal question for courts.

I did miss that provision. Perhaps you can link to it. You can start looking here.

However, I did not miss the part of Kansas Constitution actually under discussion, which I linked to. That article provides:

Kansas Constitution Art. 6 said:
(Sec. 1.) The legislature shall provide for intellectual, educational, vocational and scientific improvement by establishing and maintaining public schools, educational institutions and related activities which may be organized and changed in such manner as may be provided by law.

...

(Sec. 6(b).) The legislature shall make suitable provision for finance of the educational interests of the state. No tuition shall be charged for attendance at any public school to pupils required by law to attend such school, except such fees or supplemental charges as may be authorized by law. The legislature may authorize the state board of regents to establish tuition, fees and charges at institutions under its supervision.

There's no guarantee there that the legislature provide "suitable spending to provide free education for all." There's a requirement that the legislature make "suitable provision for finance of the educational interests of the state." But not every constitutional question is a justiciable question, and some constitutional failings only have political remedies. What are "the educational interests of the state"? What causes a provision made to be "suitable" to finance those interests? These are pure policy questions that should be left to the elected legislature, to which the financing power is committed.
 

remist

Member
There's no guarantee there that the legislature provide "suitable spending to provide free education for all." There's a requirement that the legislature make "suitable provision for finance of the educational interests of the state." But not every constitutional question is a justiciable question, and some constitutional failings only have political remedies. What are "the educational interests of the state"? What causes a provision made to be "suitable" to finance those interests? These are pure policy questions that should be left to the elected legislature, to which the financing power is committed.
In your opinion. The people of Kansas who ratified the constitution were of the opinion that those things should be decided by the judiciary or they wouldn't have put it in a document that has primacy over the legislature.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
In your opinion. The people of Kansas who ratified the constitution were of the opinion that those things should be decided by the judiciary or they wouldn't have put it in a document that has primacy over the legislature.

Including something in a constitution isn't the same as giving the courts jurisdiction over that thing. As I said before--and bolded--not every constitutional question is a justiciable question, and some constitutional failings have only political remedies. Sometimes, a constitutional failing has no judicial remedy, whether because of standing rules or doctrines like the political question doctrine. Setting funding levels is one of those issues that shouldn't be touched by the courts.
 
Part of it is older people retiring, no doubt. But there are also a lot of people who have simply given up trying to find a job. Given how negative polls show people feel about the economy, it's not surprising.

We're fucked. Nothing will get done as long as Obama is president, and the economy can simply drown slowly.
Too bad Romney isn't president right
 
I did miss that provision. Perhaps you can link to it. You can start looking here.

However, I did not miss the part of Kansas Constitution actually under discussion, which I linked to. That article provides:



There's no guarantee there that the legislature provide "suitable spending to provide free education for all." There's a requirement that the legislature make "suitable provision for finance of the educational interests of the state." But not every constitutional question is a justiciable question, and some constitutional failings only have political remedies. What are "the educational interests of the state"? What causes a provision made to be "suitable" to finance those interests? These are pure policy questions that should be left to the elected legislature, to which the financing power is committed.

First off, it says exactly what I said, only in many more words. I don't see how one could interpret it any other way.

Furthermore, this is most definitely a justiciable question.

The constitution says the legislature must provide "suitable provision" and it's up to the courts to decide if it is. What is the point of putting that in there if the legislature gets to determine what the legislature must do? That's an absurd position to hold.

You're basically arguing the interpretation of the claise is "The legislature shall make suitable provision, which will wholly be up to the legislature to begin with, for finance of the educational interests of the state"

It's nonsensical. There would be no reason for such a clause if the legislature gets to determine politically what that means.

Whenever a legislative or executive body is told by law what to do, it is always within the purview of the Courts to determine whether they are abiding by that law.
 

remist

Member
Including something in a constitution isn't the same as giving the courts jurisdiction over that thing. As I said before--and bolded--not every constitutional question is a justiciable question, and some constitutional failings have only political remedies. Sometimes, a constitutional failing has no judicial remedy, whether because of standing rules or doctrines like the political question doctrine. Setting funding levels is one of those issues that shouldn't be touched by the courts.

After reading up on the political question doctrine and Baker v. Carr I think I have to admit that you are probably right, but I think it is a shame that it is so.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
First off, it says exactly what I said, only in many more words. I don't see how one could interpret it any other way.

It plainly doesn't. Provisions must be "suitable . . . [to] finance the educational interests of the state," not "suitable . . . to provide free education for all." The object to which the legislature's provisions are to be directed is "the educational interests of the state"--whatever that may be--not "free education for all." Education needn't even be free, since the legislature is empowered to "authorize[] by law" "fees and other supplemental charges," and, of course, public universities may charge "tuition, fees and charges" as established by the state board of regents.

Furthermore, this is most definitely a justiciable question.

The constitution says the legislature must provide "suitable provision" and it's up to the courts to decide if it is. What is the point of putting that in there if the legislature gets to determine what the legislature must do? That's an absurd position to hold.

The Kansas Constitution does not say the bolded. Nowhere are the courts given explicit authority to mandate a minimum amount of school funding. Because of that, they should decline to decide any such question. Even if the Kansas Constitution did give the courts authority to review the level of school funding, I'd still argue that the Constitution should be amended to remove that authority.

You're basically arguing the interpretation of the claise is "The legislature shall make suitable provision, which will wholly be up to the legislature to begin with, for finance of the educational interests of the state"

I am arguing that the legislature is empowered to determine (1) the educational interests of the state and (2) what constitutes provision "suitable" to finance those interests. I am arguing that the court is not authorized to second-guess those decisions, but that even if it is authorized, it should decline to do so. I am arguing that if Kansans believe that the legislature is making provision that is not suitable, they have an adequate remedy through the electoral process. To suggest otherwise is to say that the policy preferences of unelected judges should trump the policy preferences of the democratically elected political branches.

Whenever a legislative or executive body is told by law what to do, it is always within the purview of the Courts to determine whether they are abiding by that law.

This just isn't true. Here are some examples from the federal government. There's simply too much discretion involved in defining "the educational interests of the state" and provision that is "suitable" to that end for a court to be the appropriate forum to determine those issues. Now, if the Kansas Constitution defined "suitable provision" to mean, say, at least 80% of the national average per-pupil spending, then that'd be a different story. Then, there's a clear rule for enforcement. But "suitable" and "the educational interests of the state" don't provide such rules.
 
The Kansas Constitution does not say the bolded. Nowhere are the courts given explicit authority to mandate a minimum amount of school funding. Because of that, they should decline to decide any such question. Even if the Kansas Constitution did give the courts authority to review the level of school funding, I'd still argue that the Constitution should be amended to remove that authority.

The US constitution doesn't include judicial review. It exists though. And the question of judiciary is usually up to the court. This court saw it as a judicial issue and rendered their opinion.

The bolded really describes what you really after. You want a change in the consitution. Fine argue that. Don't say the court doesn't have a power it does.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
The bolded really describes what you really after. You want a change in the consitution. Fine argue that. Don't say the court doesn't have a power it does.

Not at all. If the Kansas Constitution expressly grants the Kansas courts authority to ensure minimum funding for education, then I believe it should be amended. If it does not, then the courts should decline to exercise jurisdiction for prudential reasons, and the Constitution doesn't need to be amended. I'm saying that the courts should recognize the limits of judicial competence, and the importance of matters of policy being determined by the elected branches (except when a particular policy decision is clearly mandated by a constitution, which isn't the case here).
 
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