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PoliGAF 2015 |OT2| Pls print

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B

Butts-a-plenty

Banned
brainchild said:
Again, a non-sequitur. You just said yourself that single-payer is unnecessary. A lot of people thought that universal healthcare was unnecessary.

Do you really believe that it would not be an uphill battle in a country that may as well be called the United States of Capitalism to garner support for a system that many people don't even think that we need?!

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Fighting to get single-payer absolutely would be an uphill battle. The adoption of such a system would have a serious impact on the economy, and I don't see the opponents to it rolling over and taking it in the ass. They'll fight against it as hard as they can. You can guarantee it.
Click to expand...

Switzerland and Germany have some of the best universal health insurance in the world and neither of them are single payer. There is this odd notion that single payer is the only route to UHC by progressives in this country.
 
B

brainchild

Banned
Update to the aggregate




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Inebriated said:
Switzerland and Germany have some of the best universal health insurance in the world and neither of them are single payer. There is this odd notion that single payer is the only route to UHC by progressives in this country.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it's the only route, but it's a good one, if only to run down current various healthcare expenses, which are exorbitant and ridiculous at this point.
 
B

Butts-a-plenty

Banned
brainchild said:
Update to the aggregate




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20150915145433467.png







I'm not saying it's the only route, but it's a good one, if only to run down current various healthcare expenses, which are exorbitant and ridiculous at this point.
Click to expand...

It's also by far the least likely route to take given our existing institutional structure. It would require more overhaul of our systems than is necessary to get a high performing system.
 
W

Wilsongt

Member
Another planned parenthood video released. I guess that company that is making and releasing these videos really, really wants the government to shut down again.
 
B

brainchild

Banned
Inebriated said:
It's also by far the least likely route to take given our existing institutional structure. It would require more overhaul of our systems than is necessary to get a high performing system.
Click to expand...

Hence why I consider it an uphill battle to adopt such a system.

Blergmeister said:
You misunderstood. Single Payer is a form of Universal Heathcare, but not the only one. We currently have a form of Universal Heathcare (medicaid fuckers adide.) The uphill battle was getting a form, any form, of universal healthcare, not Single Payer.
Click to expand...


There is no official uphill battle. We live in a world with a variety of opinions and approaches to solving problems. It was an uphill battle for the people who believed that universal healthcare was the way to go, not some kind absolute standard that needed to be upheld.

Similarly, Single-Payer will be another uphill battle, as evidenced by the fact that many people don't even think it's necessary.

I will say that Universal Healthcare was a huge step in the right direction, but FOR THOSE THAT WANT SINGLE PAYER, the battle isn't over.

So to tie this all together, for SOME people, we do not actually have the universal healthcare that we need until we adopt a single payer system, which is why you'll occasionally see people say that we don't have UHC, because a UHC system that doesn't do what it should, might as well be called something else, in their eyes.
 
B

BertramCooper

Banned
Why are you guys talking about health care when there's that new Trump/Carson poll out? Get your priorities straight.

Trump is all like...

giphy.gif


...right now.
 
D

Daniel B·

Banned
brainchild said:
All good points, but largely inconsequential.

How many people you know who are pro-life are gonna rationally deliberate whether his reasoning for being pro-choice is valid or not? Their motivations are driven by the appeal to emotion, which is a very powerful force in terms of how it affects the human conscience and the decisions that people make.

It doesn't matter what he said, nothing short of him saying that he's switching to pro-life would have changed their opinions about his statements on the matter. It would have been a waste of time, Bernie knew this, and wisely put the issue back on the republicans. Just wait until he starts debating in this election season. Minds will be blown.
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With respect, I completely disagree. My point was entirely in keeping with his audience, that believing "children in the womb need our protection", once the child is born, it is no less deserving of our support, where needed, and programs like the $15 minimum wage and universal health care would ensure more families could raise their children without needing a helping hand from the government.

Republicans having a pro-life stance, whilst at the same time advocating cutting social programs to the bone, is completely immoral and is something the Christian students should rally against.
 
B

brainchild

Banned
Daniel B·;178906445 said:
With respect, I completely disagree. My point was entirely in keeping with his audience, that believing "children in the womb need our protection", once the child is born, it is no less deserving of our support, where needed, and programs like the $15 minimum wage and universal health care would ensure more families could raise their children without needing a helping hand from the government.

Republicans having a pro-life stance, whilst at the same time advocating cutting social programs to the bone, is completely immoral and is something the Christian students should rally against.
Click to expand...

Again, all valid points... that would fly over the heads of that audience. They're looking for confirmation bias, not sound logic.

If you want to believe that he could've changed their perception, more power to you, but I won't believe it for one hot second. Not one.
 
B

Butts-a-plenty

Banned
brainchild said:
Hence why I consider it an uphill battle to adopt such a system.




There is no official uphill battle. We live in a world with a variety of opinions and approaches to solving problems. It was an uphill battle for the people who believed that universal healthcare was the way to go, not some kind absolute standard that needed to be upheld.

Similarly, Single-Payer will be another uphill battle, as evidenced by the fact that many people don't even think it's necessary.

I will say that Universal Healthcare was a huge step in the right direction, but FOR THOSE THAT WANT SINGLE PAYER, the battle isn't over.

So to tie this all together, for SOME people, we do not actually have the universal healthcare that we need until we adopt a single payer system, which is why you'll occasionally see people say that we don't have UHC.
Click to expand...

Those who are entirely focused on getting single payer instead of a system that performs best in a given set of institutional boundaries are misguided and are pursing a specific system over an actual solution to the problem presented.
 
B

brainchild

Banned
Inebriated said:
Those who are entirely focused on getting single payer instead of a system that performs best in a given set of institutional boundaries are misguided and are pursing a specific system over an actual solution to the problem presented.
Click to expand...


Not quite. It's not all or nothing. Many of them are fine with accepting the current system while they fight for a better one. Furthermore, there are problems presented that the current solution does not solve, and single payer would, so it's not a pointless fight.
 
B

Butts-a-plenty

Banned
brainchild said:
Not quite. It's not all or nothing. Many of them are fine with accepting the current system while they fight for a better one. Furthermore, there are problems presented that the current solution does not solve, and single payer would, so it's not a pointless fight.
Click to expand...

The current system can be improved to more closely follow the multiplayer systems like Germany and Switzerland which solve those problems without requiring an overhaul of the entire system. Single payer isn't the only way to solve them and isn't even the best option for us. I don't know why you're so hung up on it being the solution when there are other, much closer systems to our own which have been proven to solve those problems and would be easier to aspire to.
 
D

Daniel B·

Banned
brainchild said:
Again, all valid points... that would fly over the heads of that audience. They're looking for confirmation bias, not sound logic.

If you want to believe that he could've changed their perception, more power to you, but I won't believe it for one hot second. Not one.
Click to expand...

How about his powerful speech on "Family Values" (a.k.a. paid leave for new mothers)? I would be surprised if that didn't at least get some of the students thinking about the issue.
 
H

HylianTom

Banned
The eternal adolescent in me initially thought it was a lady from an 80s Summer's Eve commercial.
Long, flowy white gown.. the beach..
(Then I read the context.)
 
B

brainchild

Banned
Inebriated said:
The current system can be improved to more closely follow the multiplayer systems like Germany and Switzerland which solve those problems without requiring an overhaul of the entire system. Single payer isn't the only way to solve them and isn't even the best option for us. I don't know why you're so hung up on it being the solution when there are other, much closer systems to our own which have been proven to solve those problems and would be easier to aspire to.
Click to expand...

I'm not hung up on the system, personally. In fact, I'd say that any system that can solve the current issues we're facing with healthcare right now would be welcome to consider. The problem is that it's going to be a struggle to get UHC where it needs to be with any system that could achieve this due to healthcare special interests who have every incentive to prevent that from happening. Capitalism is the backbone of our economy after all.
 
B

brainchild

Banned
Daniel B·;178910090 said:
How about his powerful speech on "Family Values" (a.k.a. paid leave for new mothers)? I would be surprised if that didn't at least get some of the students thinking about the issue.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about changing their perception of his views on abortion. It's not happening.

Not even in an alternate universe could you do this... it is folly.
 
A

Abinash117

Member
If Donald Trump drops out supporters should go to Carson mostly and visa versa . Either way that means if one of them are capable of winning the nomination that means when against one of them would easy as Reagan decimated Mondale in the electoral college. It would even easier if it was Carson. If they don't get the nomination then there's a likely chance that those supporters won't support the establishment guys or establishment guys would have to go super crazy. Either way I am glad about the rising of Carson's polling .
 
N

NeoXChaos

Member
Jeb and Hillary are imploding in Florida

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2015/09/florida-down-on-bush-rubio-campaigns.html

The lack of enthusiasm for Bush and Rubio's candidacies is reflected in the Republican primary numbers in the state. Donald Trump has a wide lead at 28% with Ben Carson second at 17%. Bush (13%) and Rubio (10%) can only achieve 3rd and 4th place standings in their home state. Ted Cruz at 9%, Carly Fiorina at 7%, and John Kasich at 5% round out the candidates with any meaningful level of support.
Click to expand...
Bush's position with the GOP electorate in Florida is so weak that he even trails Trump 55/38 when the two are matched up head to head. Trump's 56/35 favorability rating comes in a tick ahead of Bush's 55/36 favorability. When we polled the state earlier this year Bush led the Republican field at 25%, and boasted a 66/24 rating.
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On the Democratic side, Florida continues to be a pretty strong state for Hillary Clinton. She's getting 55% to 18% for Bernie Sanders, 17% for Joe Biden, 2% for Martin O'Malley, and 1% each for Lincoln Chafee and Jim Webb. Compared to our March poll in the state Clinton is down 3, Biden is up 3, and Sanders is up 15. But even though Clinton's lead is not quite as substantial as it was earlier in the year, these numbers do provide more evidence of strength for her in the south.

The numbers continue to indicate that if Biden enters the race it will hurt Clinton a lot more than it does Sanders. 54% of Biden voters say Clinton is their second choice, to 14% who say Sanders is. If you reallocate Biden's voters to their second choice, Clinton's lead over Sanders in the state goes up to 64/21.
Click to expand...

The general election numbers in Florida are generally good for the GOP. The strongest Republican in the state is Carson, who leads Clinton 49/40 and Sanders 48/33. Carson easily has the best net favorability rating with the overall electorate- +20 at 45/25. The second strongest polling Republican is actually Trump who leads her by 6 at 48/42 and who has a similar 47/41 lead over Sanders. Biden polls a tick closer to Trump, trailing by 4 at 47/43. Also leading Clinton by decent sized margins are Fiorina (46/41) and Rubio (48/43). Fiorina (37/31) and Rubio (44/43) join Carson in having positive favorabilities with the full voter pool.

The other general election match ups with Clinton are close. She trails Jeb Bush 45/42, with Biden and Sanders down by similar margins as well. Bush's not polling as well against the Democrats as some of the other Republican candidates is a reflection of his overall unpopularity in the state- only 36% of voters see him positively to 52% who have a negative opinion. Clinton is down 44/41 to Kasich and 45/43 to Walker. The two Republicans who trail Clinton in Florida are Cruz and Huckabee, both at 45/43.
Click to expand...
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Carson will be much harder to defeat in a general election than Trump. MUCH harder. His favorables are through the roof (which says a lot about modern America when you look at the asinine stuff he has said).

If Carson makes it through this debate without imploding, he'll be fine. I expect Trump to hit him hard and often--eliminating the VA, flat tax being a terrible idea, etc.

Carson or Walker getting the nom is my worst-case scenario for this election.
 
A

adamsappel

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
I think some people are too young to understand how big and costly (in lives, not just money) the Vietnam War was. LBJ gets off the shit list for civil rights, but makes no top-tens either.

And I know people like to blame JFK for it, but if you look at the actual escalation, that happened under LBJ. JFK had 15,000 troops in Vietnam, LBJ had over 500,000.

Lots of apologists say the LBJ was trapped into it, but look at those numbers and think about if that isn't just trying to whitewash him.

Comparing that with the Japanese-American interment is also disingenuous. That was horrible, but it's not even in the same scale.
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JFK was not a good president, but much of LBJ's greatness came from fulfilling JFK's political intentions (which he did better than Kennedy could have). I don't think Johnson wanted to escalate the war in Vietnam, but he didn't want to be the president who lost a war, either. Also, fuck Robert McNamara.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
Plinko said:
Carson will be much harder to defeat in a general election than Trump. MUCH harder. His favorables are through the roof (which says a lot about modern America when you look at the asinine stuff he has said).

If Carson makes it through this debate without imploding, he'll be fine. I expect Trump to hit him hard and often--eliminating the VA, flat tax being a terrible idea, etc.

Carson or Walker getting the nom is my worst-case scenario for this election.
Click to expand...

Carson hasn't gotten nearly the level of public scrutiny that Trump or, really, any of the establishment candidates have. This is what always fuels these flavor of the month candidates: they get big because they say something that catches the base's fancy, their numbers explode, the media finally starts treating them like they're not a joke, they fold like a house of cards under the pressure, and things go back to normal.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Poodlestrike said:
Carson hasn't gotten nearly the level of public scrutiny that Trump or, really, any of the establishment candidates have. This is what always fuels these flavor of the month candidates: they get big because they say something that catches the base's fancy, their numbers explode, the media finally starts treating them like they're not a joke, they fold like a house of cards under the pressure, and things go back to normal.
Click to expand...

This is what I'm hoping (and feeling) happens. Reminds me of Huckabee/Perry last cycle. Nobody is criticizing him yet. If they do at the debate, it will be interested to see how he responds.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
Carson seems to me lke the type of guy that is hiding sexual harassment claims in the past. Something about that off-putting persona is very creepy.
 
T

Teggy

Member
Plinko said:
Carson will be much harder to defeat in a general election than Trump. MUCH harder. His favorables are through the roof (which says a lot about modern America when you look at the asinine stuff he has said).

If Carson makes it through this debate without imploding, he'll be fine. I expect Trump to hit him hard and often--eliminating the VA, flat tax being a terrible idea, etc.

Carson or Walker getting the nom is my worst-case scenario for this election.
Click to expand...

He has zero managerial experience, zero business experience and zero political experience. The general public is not going to vote for Carson.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Inebriated said:
Switzerland and Germany have some of the best universal health insurance in the world and neither of them are single payer. There is this odd notion that single payer is the only route to UHC by progressives in this country.
Click to expand...
Yes it's an annoying trait. I think it comes from the fact medicare is single payer and the reluctance to have people pay costs up front. Also enables price controls through bargaining rather than regulations

I think single payer in the US at this point is far more trouble than it's worth. I think the way forward is requiring more or more price caps. I think the swiss model is the way
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
adamsappel said:
JFK was not a good president, but much of LBJ's greatness came from fulfilling JFK's political intentions (which he did better than Kennedy could have). I don't think Johnson wanted to escalate the war in Vietnam, but he didn't want to be the president who lost a war, either. Also, fuck Robert McNamara.
Click to expand...
Watch fog of war
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Teggy said:
He has zero managerial experience, zero business experience and zero political experience. The general public is not going to vote for Carson.
Click to expand...

You'd be shocked at how many people in this country believe that none of that experience is necessary for the job and, in fact, is actually a detriment to performing the duty of POTUS.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
RustyNails said:
I'll save you the time: Watch how McNamara blames everything on LBJ and says "bubu we were in cold war mentality!"
Click to expand...
That's not what he does. And I don't know how you expect to understand history if you reject the actors operating framework (this doesn't, and I don't think McNamara intended it to excuse or jusify, just explain)
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Plinko said:
Carson will be much harder to defeat in a general election than Trump. MUCH harder. His favorables are through the roof (which says a lot about modern America when you look at the asinine stuff he has said).

If Carson makes it through this debate without imploding, he'll be fine. I expect Trump to hit him hard and often--eliminating the VA, flat tax being a terrible idea, etc.

Carson or Walker getting the nom is my worst-case scenario for this election.
Click to expand...

We don't really need to worry about Walker since this is the second national poll in a row where he's polled 2%. I don't see how you can come back form that.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
ivysaur12 said:
We don't really need to worry about Walker since this is the second national poll in a row where he's polled 2%. I don't see how you can come back form that.
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I agree completely--just listing him as my least favorite.

Walker's last chance is this debate. He's going to go off. If he doesn't get a jump, it's over.
 
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