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[RustyNails]

That's a vaaaaaast oversimplification.

EDIT: On both points.

It's borders. It always has been. Every problem in the middle-east is because of borders, whether it's the British Mandate or Sykes-Picot, it all comes back to some European dude sitting on a desk and creating a straight line that cuts through tribe, religion, sect and family. It really starts from there. I'm not saying the terrorists are not responsible. They are. But the conditions the European colonialism has created in middle-east and Africa, the terrorists are taking advantage of it. Hell, the first video ISIS released was a bearded dude walking over the border of Syria and Iraq and saying "Sykes-Picot is no more".

 

[And_Gignac]

I disagree on Clinton´s being powerful. Thats the perception within the party, but not with the electorate. Had Warren decided to run she would be already above Clinton. Bernie is a weak candidate compared to her, imo.

 

[Cerium]

Warren would've caused a true split in the party that Democrats might not have been able to recover from, in my opinion. I know things worked out in 2008 but that was more a clash of personalities than policy. Warren is well to the left of Obama.

I also think that Warren can do the most good right where she is now.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I may be mistaken, but Elizabeth Warren couldn't even win a senate seat in liberal MA that easily, so I don't know where that sort of confidence comes from. She wields a degree of power as the standard bearer for the party's left flank, but as an actual presidential candidate I don't see it.

She is no Bill or Hillary Clinton.

 

[benjipwns]

Gravis is a crap firm though, the only thing they've ever done right is the Ultrasound. I'll wait for something more reputable.

For a moment I wondered if they were actually part of the same giant conglomerate, and invented the other ultrasound.

It's borders. It always has been. Every problem in the middle-east is because of borders, whether it's the British Mandate or Sykes-Picot, it all comes back to some European dude sitting on a desk and creating a straight line that cuts through tribe, religion, sect and family. It really starts from there. I'm not saying the terrorists are not responsible. They are. But the conditions the European colonialism has created in middle-east and Africa, the terrorists are taking advantage of it. Hell, the first video ISIS released was a bearded dude walking over the border of Syria and Iraq and saying "Sykes-Picot is no more".

The ethnic and religious conflict of the Middle East and Africa predates the imposed modern borders.

 

[benjipwns]

I may be mistaken, but Elizabeth Warren couldn't even win a senate seat in liberal MA that easily, so I don't know where that sort of confidence comes from.

Hillary doesn't own a pickup truck.

That I'm aware of.

 

[Cerium]

I may be mistaken, but Elizabeth Warren couldn't even win a senate seat in liberal MA that easily, so I don't know where that sort of confidence comes from.

She has more name recognition than Bernie and enormous credibility with the base. She's a woman, photogenic, a better speaker, and not tied to any Clinton baggage. Wall Street legitimately loathes her. I'm not sure what the early polling looked like, but I do believe that she could've been a real threat to Clinton in Iowa and New Hampshire. If she wins there, who knows what happens?

The general election would probably be a different story.

 

[Basileus777]

The ethnic and religious conflict of the Middle East and Africa predates the imposed modern borders.

And for the most part there were no clear borders to impose that would neatly divide the regions by ethnicity and religion. Such communities generally don't form in ways that lets you draw a clean line to separate them on a map. Well, not without some form of ethnic cleansing (and modern education systems to erase local languages), which is how much of Europe's borders were formed.

 

[RustyNails]

And for the most part there were no clear borders to impose that would neatly divide the regions by ethnicity and religion. Such communities generally don't form in ways that lets you draw a clean line to separate them on a map. Well, not without some form of ethnic cleansing (and modern education systems to erase local languages), which is how much of Europe's borders were formed.

There was no reason to impose...is what I'm saying. We should have stayed the fuck out rather than a bullheaded, top-down artificial creation of countries who's borders were created more of a convenience to the Imperial overlords than respecting the native boundaries.

 

[disastermouse]

She has more name recognition than Bernie and enormous credibility with the base. She's a woman, photogenic, a better speaker, and not tied to any Clinton baggage. Wall Street legitimately loathes her. I'm not sure what the early polling looked like, but I do believe that she could've been a real threat to Clinton in Iowa and New Hampshire. If she wins there, who knows what happens?

The general election would probably be a different story.

I'm not sure she has any history with the black or Latino communities though and that's something that's holding back Bernie. It's a moot point since she isn't running. If Clinton was smart, she'd draft Warren as a VP candidate. It'd give lefties a hope that they'd get a groomed left candidate in eight years.

I don't see it happening, though. She's already got the ladies and if she beats Bernie, she'll likely take lefties for granted and won't see a use for Warren. I'm hoping that assumption is what loses the election for her, actually.

 

[benjipwns]

And for the most part there were no clear borders to impose that would neatly divide the regions by ethnicity and religion. Such communities generally don't form in ways that lets you draw a clean line to separate them on a map. Well, not without some form of ethnic cleansing (and modern education systems to erase local languages), which is how much of Europe's borders were formed.

Yugoslavia provides a modern European example where some [who?, see me after class] argued for maintaining it so as to ward off the likely resumption of endless ethnic conflict in the Balkans.

Certain nation states [which?, see me after class] in Africa are seen as less biased non-violent dispute resolution bodies because the manufactured patriotism offers a higher level of identity than historical ethnicity. (Others...not so much.)

A Kurdish nation state would certainly take some regional pressure off Israel for a while though.

 

[Bowdz]

What pisses me off about Republicans is their complete inability to keep a level head after a terrorist attack and yet their utter ambivalence after each domestic shooting we have. All weekend, they've been parading around talking about how we need troops on the ground is Syria, how we need to stop all migration from the Middle East to the US, how we need to increase military spending, how we need to increase monitoring capabilities, and how Obama is weak and dropped the ball (aka politicizing a tragedy). Meanwhile, after any domestic shooting we have, they complain about Obama and Democrats politicizing the tragedy while collectively saying "shit happens, there's nothing we can do but add more guns".

Their lack of rational decision making in the face of global terror and their lack of willingness to do anything post shooting incident infuriates me to no end.

 

[benjipwns]

If Clinton was smart, she'd draft Warren as a VP candidate. It'd give lefties a hope that they'd get a groomed left candidate in eight years.

Lizzy will be 74 in 2024.

she'll likely take lefties for granted and won't see a use for Warren.

It's more likely Warren won't see the use for a VP nomination, especially since she's already expressed her much larger interest in legislative policymaking over the Presidency.

 

[Basileus777]

There was no reason to impose...is what I'm saying. We should have stayed the fuck out rather than a bullheaded, top-down artificial creation of countries who's borders were created more of a convenience to the Imperial overlords than respecting the native boundaries.

Well, the world probably would have been a better place if the Ottoman Empire had kept out of the war and avoided partition. Beyond that though, there weren't all that many better options in terms of borders, unless you are talking about some pan-arab state. But based on all the problems pan-arabism faced historically, I'm not sure how well that would have gone anyway. (And obviously imperial powers were never going to support such a state)

Yugoslavia provides a modern European example where some [who?, see me after class] argued for maintaining it so as to ward off the likely resumption of endless ethnic conflict in the Balkans.

Certain nation states [which?, see me after class] in Africa are seen as less biased non-violent dispute resolution bodies because the manufactured patriotism offers a higher level of identity than historical ethnicity. (Others...not so much.)

A Kurdish nation state would certainly take some regional pressure off Israel for a while though.

The best example of this in the middle-east oddly enough is Iran, but they had the benefit of a long history to forge an Iranian identity that supersedes ethnic identities.

 

[disastermouse]

Lizzy will be 74 in 2024.


It's more likely Warren won't see the use for a VP nomination, especially since she's already expressed her much larger interest in legislative policymaking over the Presidency.

Damn...didn't realize she was so old. She would be hard to replace in the Senate too, come to think of it.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The Islamic State is upset about how much immigration they are receiving and how the immigrants are moochers:

Now starting to worry that they've become a nation state if people are already talking about immigrants taking their jerbs and being welfare queens of a sort.

 

[benjipwns]

Damn...didn't realize she was so old. She would be hard to replace in the Senate too, come to think of it.

Warren basically had an entire academic career (20+ years of teaching/research) before she got seriously involved in politics in the late 2000s. Most of her prior political experience before TARP was just advising here and there on legislation that touched on her research and stuff like that. Which is not uncommon for people at big name schools.

The best example of this in the middle-east oddly enough is Iran, but they had the benefit of a long history to forge an Iranian identity that supersedes ethnic identities.

The unfortunate part is many of these lasting overriding nationalisms that leave what we consider "modern" states came out of/are dictatorships. That breeds a certain form of cynicism I think.

 

[QuiteWhittle]

I'm not sure she has any history with the black or Latino communities though and that's something that's holding back Bernie. It's a moot point since she isn't running. If Clinton was smart, she'd draft Warren as a VP candidate. It'd give lefties a hope that they'd get a groomed left candidate in eight years.

I don't see it happening, though. She's already got the ladies and if she beats Bernie, she'll likely take lefties for granted and won't see a use for Warren. I'm hoping that assumption is what loses the election for her, actually.

A Republican would succeed Warren in the Senate when Dems need every seat they can get to retake the chamber.

 

[benjipwns]

The Islamic State is upset about how much immigration they are receiving and how the immigrants are moochers:

Now starting to worry that they've become a nation state if people are already talking about immigrants taking their jerbs and being welfare queens of a sort.

I knew it was all over when I read ISIS was setting up regulatory inspections to help ensure halal quality standards.

 

[RustyNails]

Yugoslavia provides a modern European example where some [who?, see me after class] argued for maintaining it so as to ward off the likely resumption of endless ethnic conflict in the Balkans.

Certain nation states [which?, see me after class] in Africa are seen as less biased non-violent dispute resolution bodies because the manufactured patriotism offers a higher level of identity than historical ethnicity. (Others...not so much.)

A Kurdish nation state would certainly take some regional pressure off Israel for a while though.

So you're against balkanization, yes? Bosnia and Herzegovina is apt comparison since you brought up Yugoslavia. Many people forget, but tens of thousands of people died in that conflict and the Serbs even brought back concentration camps.

The Islamic State is upset about how much immigration they are receiving and how the immigrants are moochers:

Now starting to worry that they've become a nation state if people are already talking about immigrants taking their jerbs and being welfare queens of a sort.

This dude by the way is a hero. Heard all about him on NPR. He runs the group Raqqa is being slaughtered silently which exposes ISIS' crimes in Raqqa. He's on the run like Jason Bourne and is most wanted by ISIS.

 

[benjipwns]

Speaking of women Senators, I expect Kirsten Gillibrand to be an eventual (Vice) Presidential candidate.

So you're against balkanization, yes? Bosnia and Herzegovina is apt comparison since you brought up Yugoslavia. Many people forget, but tens of thousands of people died in that conflict and the Serbs even brought back concentration camps.

Dude, did you forget I'm a fucking anarchist?

 

[RustyNails]

Dude, did you forget I'm a fucking anarchist?

Lol, a true statist would not be pro-balkanization anyway.

 

[Cerium]

I'm not sure she has any history with the black or Latino communities though and that's something that's holding back Bernie. It's a moot point since she isn't running. If Clinton was smart, she'd draft Warren as a VP candidate. It'd give lefties a hope that they'd get a groomed left candidate in eight years.

Unfortunately I think Warren is too old to run in eight years.

 

[B-Dubs]

Lol, a true statist would not be pro-balkanization anyway.

You're presuming that the state is legitimate with that statement.

 

[disastermouse]

You're presuming that the state is legitimate with that statement.

Legitimate doesn't matter. "Between equal rights, force decides." (- Marx, but most probably already know that).

 

[benjipwns]

Hey guys. Just discovered PolitiGAF.

Legitimate doesn't matter. "Between equal rights, force decides." (- Marx, but most probably already know that).

oh ho ho, a newbie

 

[disastermouse]

oh ho ho, a newbie

I wouldn't presume to persuade an anarchist.

 

[Aaron]

I disagree on Clinton´s being powerful. Thats the perception within the party, but not with the electorate. Had Warren decided to run she would be already above Clinton. Bernie is a weak candidate compared to her, imo.

As someone who voted Warren for senate, this is pure fantasy. Warren is better put together than Bernie, but she carries a lot of the same issues and baggage. Clinton is untouchable in the current state of the race. Rubio has potential, but right now he's just a slightly more charasmatic Jeb, spouting party lines with no new ideas. People are drawn to Trump and Carson because they break from that mold. If Rubio gets the nomination, he will be lucky if he gets a Romney level of enthusiasm behind him.

 

[Makai]

That does diddle dicks

This could catch on.

 

[Foffy]

This could catch on.

It's mine, don't take it.

Spoiler

I won't be here long. I know I am wordy, and I am sorry to all of you homies. <3

 

[brainchild]

If Clinton was smart, she'd draft Warren as a VP candidate.

Unlikely. She's given enough nudges and winks for me to believe she'd be Bernie's VP at this point. And truth be told, if she's not running for president, I'd rather her stay in congress. She'd get more done there than she would as a VP. Then again, Bernie is old. If someone were to replace him should he die in office, Warren would be the perfect choice.

 

[Coriolanus]

She's given enough nudges and winks for me to believe she'd be Bernie's VP at this point.

Could you provide examples of those nudges and winks?

 

[Cheebo]

Unlikely. She's given enough nudges and winks for me to believe she'd be Bernie's VP at this point. And truth be told, if she's not running for president, I'd rather her stay in congress. She'd get more done there than she would as a VP. Then again, Bernie is old. If someone were to replace him should he die in office, Warren would be the perfect choice.

Warren clearly isn't stupid enough to think Bernie would ever be the nominee, so she isn't hinting at anything. Liking Bernie =/= hinting at being VP nominee.

 

[gaugebozo]

Could you provide examples of those nudges and winks?

(Elizabeth Warren must almost never wink or blink.)

 

[QuiteWhittle]

Let's remember Warren was one of the senators who signed the letter urging Cinton to run in the first place

 

[Y2Kev]

I wonder how trump's "let's let them fight it out" will play now. On one hand, republicans will probably want us to be super aggressive now. On the other hand, they went after someone "else" twice now, and callous as it reads, I wonder if that has an appeal to security mothers. I doubt it. I hate even thinking about this.

 

[BertramCooper]

I wonder how trump's "let's let them fight it out" will play now. On one hand, republicans will probably want us to be super aggressive now. On the other hand, they went after someone "else" twice now, and callous as it reads, I wonder if that has an appeal to security mothers. I doubt it. I hate even thinking about this.

I think he'll probably sidestep the military issues entirely and just keep beating the "keep out brown people" rhetoric.

The Syrian refugee crisis pairs nicely with his primary campaign theme.

 

[thefro]

I wonder how trump's "let's let them fight it out" will play now. On one hand, republicans will probably want us to be super aggressive now. On the other hand, they went after someone "else" twice now, and callous as it reads, I wonder if that has an appeal to security mothers. I doubt it. I hate even thinking about this.

He's basically adopted Putin's position this morning

Trump said he would "love the idea" of the U.S. and Russia working together to root out the Islamic State.

But while the U.S. and Russia have a mutual interest against ISIS, the two countries differ on whether Assad should stay in power. Russia wants him to stay. The U.S. wants him to go.

"The problem is, we want to get rid of Assad, but we don't know who we're getting rid of," Trump said. "It's not like we have 'George Washington' that we're backing. We're backing people who we have no idea who they are."

Pointing to other flashpoints, including Libya and Iraq, where dictators were deposed, Trump said in many cases the situations in those countries have gotten worse.

 

[brainchild]

Could you provide examples of those nudges and winks?

First, let me just say that, unlike the Biden supporters trying to objectively prove that Biden was going to run for president, I'm not saying that anything she's said so far is proof for that she will be Bernie's VP, or even endorse him. The truth is that, in all likelihood, Warren will not be anyone's VP. I'm merely saying that if she WAS going to be anyone's VP, she'd probably be Bernie's, based on what she's said so far.

I say this based on mostly just her unsolicited shout-outs to Bernie about him being an example of someone who's talking about what she believes the country should be talking about.

There aren't a ton of recent Elizabeth Warren interviews on YouTube that demonstrate her doing this, but here's one with her on The View:

Skip to about 32:00 into the video

But to get the full context of this, we need to consider that Warren said she will be endorsing a democratic candidate. The question is, which candidate would that be?

When speaking with Bill Moyer, Warren said that she would never be an insider:

And finally, Larry said to me that there are two kinds of people in Washington. There are-- and you're going to have to make a choice here about what you want to be. You can be an outsider and criticize all you want, but nobody's going to listen to you. Or you can be an insider, and we'll listen. But the first rule is, insiders don't criticize other insiders.

You know, Larry's statement just amazed me. The idea that you can be an outsider, say everything you want, but we're not going to listen to you. Or you can be an insider. But insiders never criticize insiders. And it's why I'll never be an insider. It's-- I just can't.

I don't believe an 'outsider' on the caliber of Elizabeth Warren is going to endorse (let alone become VP to) a candidate who is part of a group she refuses to associate herself with.

This isn't proof of anything, but it explains the reasoning behind my statements.

So to be very clear, there is nothing to suggest that Elizabeth Warren wants to become Bernie's VP, but if we're talking hypotheticals (which I was), Warren has said enough to convince me that she'd be Bernie's VP over the other candidates.

Warren clearly isn't stupid enough to think Bernie would ever be the nominee, so she isn't hinting at anything. Liking Bernie =/= hinting at being VP nominee.

No, she's not actually hinting at being the VP nominee. I think you took my comment too seriously. Though admittedly, I probably could have phrased it better.

I took a few of her statements as nudges and winks in a hypothetical sense, but it doesn't mean they actually are in reality. It's just enough for me to believe that if she was going to be anyone's VP, she'd be Bernie's.

Let's remember Warren was one of the senators who signed the letter urging Cinton to run in the first place

Yes, Warren thought it would be good for Hillary to run, just like she thought it would be good for Bernie and Biden to run. She wants an actual democracy based election, not just a coronation.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Biden-Warren would have been GOAT. Oh well.

 

[Yellowtail]

I don't believe an 'outsider' on the caliber of Elizabeth Warren is going to endorse (let alone become VP to) a candidate who is part of a group she refuses to associate herself with.

It's somewhat disingenuous for Warren to say she isn't an insider. She may be sworn enemies with Wall Street, but she's a fiercely loyal Democrat (one reason she'd perform better than Bernie if she was in this race). She's in the Senate Democratic leadership, she endorsed Chuck Schumer for Leader immediately, and she stumped and fundraised for blue dogs like Landrieu and Grimes in the midterms. These are all politicians much further right than Clinton.

I think her neutrality in the primaries speaks volumes. If she really felt that much closer to Bernie, or was that much of an outsider that she'd risk crossing the Clintons, she would have endorsed him by now. My impression is that she's happy with Clinton as the nominee but wants to put political pressure on her for as long as possible (just as Bernie's intent was as he entered the race). She gets far more out of playing hard to get right now.

Biden-Warren would have been GOAT. Oh well.

Aside from Biden being a godawful campaigner. I'd take Warren-Biden though.

 

[HylianTom]

Another poll out this morning showing a 16% Edwards lead -->
Without leaners: 51-35
With leaders: 54-38

http://winwithjmc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/JMC-Statewide-Executive-Summary.pdf

Please hold.. hurry-up, clock!

 

[brainchild]

It's somewhat disingenuous for Warren to say she isn't an insider. She may be sworn enemies with Wall Street, but she's a fiercely loyal partisan Democrat (one reason she'd perform better than Bernie if she was in this race). She's in the Senate Democratic leadership, she endorsed Chuck Schumer for Leader immediately, and she stumped and fundraised for blue dogs like Landrieu and Grimes in the midterms. These are all politicians much further right than Clinton.

I think her neutrality in the primaries speaks volumes. If she really felt that much closer to Bernie, or was that much of an outsider that she'd risk crossing the Clintons, she would have endorsed him by now. My impression is that she's happy with Clinton as the nominee but wants to put political pressure on her for as long as possible (just as Bernie's intent was as he entered the race). She gets far more out of playing hard to get right now.

I absolutely agree. In practical terms, Warren will continue to remain neutral until a nominee is chosen.

However, it's obvious to me that she has no desire to be anyone's vice president. She'd probably be running for president herself before she'd even consider it.

In other news...


Nina Turner drops support for Hillary and feels the Bern

 

[cartoon_soldier]

IT'S HAPPENING

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=15&v=Pdiq9oOSRss

Now when that Vander Plaats endorsement comes through for Cruz. Game fucking Over in Iowa.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Another poll out this morning showing a 16% Edwards lead -->
Without leaners: 51-35
With leaders: 54-38

http://winwithjmc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/JMC-Statewide-Executive-Summary.pdf

Please hold.. hurry-up, clock!

Saw (per Daily Kos Elections, can't link as it's on my phone but it's behind a paywall anyway) that Mitch Landrieu is considering running for Senate in 2016 if Vitter loses the gubernatorial run-off.

Whether he wants to challenge Vitter specifically or would jump in anyway (perhaps seeing if a Democrat can still win statewide), who knows but I hope he does it either way. We need to run solid candidates everywhere we can, even if we have no chance of winning.

Obama's at 51 on Gallup, wrap it up Hillary's got this in the bag (rally effect after the attacks in Paris or just a high-end average? I dunno)

 

[BertramCooper]

I'm still mad at myself for picking Rubio instead of Cruz.

Cruz is totally winning the nomination.

 

[Cheebo]

I'm still mad at myself for picking Rubio instead of Cruz.

Cruz is totally winning the nomination.

The party hates him more than Trump. They would do anything to stop Cruz.

 

[Coriolanus]

Obama saying that there will be no ground troops sure makes me happy that Hills ain't in power yet.

 

[BertramCooper]

The party hates him more than Trump. They would do anything to stop Cruz.

But as a US senator, it's harder for the party to write off Cruz.

 

[B-Dubs]

But as a US senator, it's harder for the party to write off Cruz.

Not really. Literally no one in the Senate likes him and will just start endorsing whoever it takes to stop him. They all hate his guts, the man's got no real allies in the Senate except Steve King.