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PoliGAF 2015 |OT2| Pls print

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Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
It's HuffPost

The chart gets updated every time a new poll comes out, so you're right, that's probably only one post-debate poll factored into the averages right now. Obviously, compared to the older results, it brings the numbers down.

I wonder if I should wait to post aggregate updates until there's a threshold met. I'll ask you guys, what should the number be? How many polls should I wait to be updated before posting the aggregate? 5? 8? I'll go with whatever you guys decide.

I don't really have an opinion on it, but your post gave me the impression that it was showing post-debate changes. Looks like Bam Bam Baklava thought so, too. I just wanted to clarify what was being shown in that chart.

I'm definitely interested in seeing more post-debate polling. I think things are going to start to get interesting.
 

Gotchaye

Member
It's HuffPost

The chart gets updated every time a new poll comes out, so you're right, that's probably only one post-debate poll factored into the averages right now. Obviously, compared to the older results, it brings the numbers down.

I wonder if I should wait to post aggregate updates until there's a threshold met. I'll ask you guys, what should the number be? How many polls should I wait to be updated before posting the aggregate? 5? 8? I'll go with whatever you guys decide.

I mean, it depends what you're trying to say. Usually the reason someone might post a poll aggregate is to say something about the state of the race right now. If something happened recently that might have shaken things up a lot, especially if you've already got some polls suggesting that that's the case, you probably don't want to rely on an aggregate that gives significant weight to responses from before whatever-it-was.

Right now, probably what most people want to know is what the debate did to people's numbers. So you probably want to know how things stood before the debate, which you can use an aggregate (of pre-debate polls) for. Then you want to know how things stand now, so you want to use only polls from after the debate. It's somewhat useful to be posting individual polls as they come out, since we've got nothing else to go on, but then you want to be averaging them together to try to come up with a best estimate of what the race looks like post-debate. I don't think we need to refrain from looking at polls until we have enough to cross some reliability threshold, but certainly we should be keeping in mind that averages of small numbers of polls could be pretty off.
 
My friend said Rand was the most attractive on the stage and I don't understand how & why. I mean I wouldn't call any of them good looking but Rand? hair too wild
 
But we absolutely do know this. The original videos make it clear that the material Fiorina is referencing do not come from the 'leaked' Planned Parenthood tape, and in fact they aren't even from an abortion. Here is a lengthy article explaining where it comes from:

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/09/424...anned-parenthood-got-important-details-wrong/

What Sarah Kliff is accurately saying is that the tape leaked from Planned Parenthood do not contain the images Fiorina is refering to and that is absolutely correct.
Did the ij review decide to go not 100% conservative? I guess the free Bacon eat that market share up and there going after buzzfeed market share?
 
edit: Aaaand now the conversation has already moved on while I was typing that up ... speaking of losing causes :p
:( Do you have an opinion on the aesthetic qualities of rand paul
Rand Paul's hair is definitely a losing cause ;)
Psshhh whatever man i thought with a bio like yours you'd be on my side for sure.
*edit* I think Rand Paul is kind of attractive. His hair looks decent enough to me. He looks a lot like his father though.
At least one person here isn't blind or leftist to the point of denying reality
 

User1608

Banned
edit: Aaaand now the conversation has already moved on while I was typing that up ... speaking of losing causes :p
Thanks for sharing your own transformation in alignment. Definitely different from many of us here! I certainly appreciate it!

*edit* I think Rand Paul is kind of attractive. His hair looks decent enough to me. He looks a lot like his father though.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
So 2004 was my first election, and I voted for Kerry ... and then I've supported the Republican for president ever since. I guess I just have a penchant for losing causes :p

edit: Aaaand now the conversation has already moved on while I was typing that up ... speaking of losing causes :p

... so you went from Kerry/Edwards to McCain/Palin? And it's because you discovered a previously unknown liberal media bubble about Dan Rather?
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Good news guys. Kansas' economy is soaring....like the Hindenberg:

Gov. Sam Brownback’s income tax-cut plan to spur job growth in Kansas has become a full-time disaster.

On Friday, the state announced it had lost 3,000 total jobs in August. That’s on top of the 5,100 jobs lost in July.

Here’s even more dire news: The Sunflower State in the past 12 months gained a total of a puny 1,000 new jobs.

That’s the fourth worst record in the entire United States, at .1 percent employment growth for the entire last year.


Only West Virginia, North Dakota and Alaska are worse, according to the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Other states, meanwhile, that didn’t slash taxes and give up hundreds of millions of dollars in public revenues are enjoying robust job additions.

Just look at Missouri: It has gained 30,800 jobs in the last 12 months — almost 31 times more than Kansas has.

Of other close-by states, Nebraska is up 8,700 jobs, Oklahoma up 4,300 and Colorado up 47,000
.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/opinion/o...abouhalkah/article35684450.html#storylink=cpy
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
At the presidential level, I could definitely see myself voting republican depending on the candidates...but no way is Palin someone that I could talk myself into voting for. Just no.
 

Chichikov

Member
I was socialist when I was young, but it wasn't very formed or informed, I was born to left leaning family and there was no way I was going to rebel rightward.
There were just more hot chicks on the left.

When I grew up and become a more educated and well read person I realized I bet on the right horse, and I'm still a socialist.

I stop being a zionist though, but I don't want to upset NYCmetsfan during the high holy days.
 
Well, I'm officially on vacation. Spending a week in Napa (despite the fires...).

Just a heads up so none of you think I died. I might check in if something interesting happens, but otherwise don't expect me around for 2 weeks. Have fun, everyone!
 
Jeb! "rally" in Las Vegas.

CPKVXR3VAAArRNq.jpg
 

User 406

Banned
I was socialist when I was young, but it wasn't very formed or informed, I was born to left leaning family and there was no way I was going to rebel rightward.
There were just more hot chicks on the left.

When I grew up and become a more educated and well read person I realized I bet on the right horse, and I'm still a socialist.

It's funny, my early political leanings were informed by really simplistic stuff. Growing up in Oklahoma, I knew there were a lot of racist assholes out there, so I figured whoever they're voting for, I'll vote for the other guy.

Many years later after lots of elections, events, books, study, and discussion, I realized that holy shit, racism really is the central problem with our country, and the biggest roadblock to political progress.

I could have just stuck to that rule of thumb and saved myself all that time learning. :p
 
Well, I'm officially on vacation. Spending a week in Napa (despite the fires...).

Just a heads up so none of you think I died. I might check in if something interesting happens, but otherwise don't expect me around for 2 weeks. Have fun, everyone!
Enjoy your vacation.
MR8KOaK.png

This picture is of Hillary Clinton meeting with Laurance Rockefeller, circa 1995. The book tucked in her arm is Are We Alone by Paul Davies. It is about ufos and the effects extraterrestrial life would have on human society. Laurance Rockefeller was noted for his interest on the topic of aliens as well.
What conclusions can we draw from this
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Enjoy your vacation.
MR8KOaK.png

This picture is of Hillary Clinton meeting with Laurance Rockefeller, circa 1995. The book tucked in her arm is Are We Alone by Paul Davies. It is about ufos and the effects extraterrestrial life would have on human society. Laurance Rockefeller was noted for his interest on the topic of aliens as well.
What conclusions can we draw from this

she wants to go home
 

Sianos

Member
No, BM. I'm arguing that she's saying what I'm saying.

The CMP videos are "the Planned Parenthood videos." They are the "tapes" Fiorina was referring to. You're inferring an additional claim that was not made--that every bit of film included in the CMP/Planned Parenthood videos was leaked from a Planned Parenthood facility--to render what claims were made false. And that's dishonest.

Moreover, we don't know it's not Planned Parenthood! We don't know the "organizational affiliation" of the abortion clinic where that specific footage originated. We know it didn't originate with CMP, but Fiorina never said it did.

You're playing word games at this point, not thinking critically about what your favorite voxsplainers tell you.
You are correct that tapes labeled as "the Planned Parenthood tapes" do not have to necessarily contain footage exclusively from Planned Parenthood facilities, but you must also consider the purpose of Carly's use of the anecdote and the implications she is trying to make.

The purpose of the graphic story was to transfer negative emotive connotation from hearing about the details of a gruesome medical procedure to Planned Parenthood. Using footage from a different abortion practicing organization to transfer connotation onto Planned Parenthood is disingenuous.

Also, I'm going to make an extrapolation based on assumption of competence that if a group attempting to smear Planned Parenthood had been able to tie that footage to Planned Parenthood, they would have mentioned that the footage was specifically from Planned Parenthood. Not sure why they would neglect that since they went through the trouble to audio splice the colloquially referenced tapes, I don't think they would neglect to point something that significant out unless they had no proof tying that specific footage to Planned Parenthood. This is just conjecture, but I think it's reasonable enough conjecture to cast doubt.

It's like how when Fiorina was talking about marijuana she referenced the story of her daughter overdosing "on drugs". She did not lie, her daughter did die from abusing prescription drugs - but the fact that she brought the story up during a discussion about marijuana and was vague in describing the most relevant details, it is clear that the intention is that the average person will assume the "drugs" in question were marijuana or at least illegal drugs. This is technicaly not lying, but it is disingenuous presentation framed so that you make the wrong inferences. It's effective because if you accuse her of lying, that's not true - she told the truth, but in such a manner that people will make wrong inferences about the truth.

EDIT: Actually it looks like we agree from my perspective, we both agree that Fiorina was either misleading people or was misled herself but was not technically lying. And I think we both agree on principle that misleading statements are disingenuous and generally undesirable. And I think we both recognize that just saying she was "not lying" without clarifying that she was still being disingenuous is also misleading and that we are both careful to avoid our precision adjustments being misconstrued as disingenuous arguments in the other direction. I feel its important that you often play Devil's Advocate and make sure people aren't overdrawing their claims because intellectual rigor is what separates the informed from the uninformed. It's important that we don't allow ourselves to get into the habit of being carelessly imprecise or overdrawing our conclusions, because if left unchecked perhaps we would one day end up like Carly Fiorina and her GOP debate companions.
 

That there bubble sure is shiny and chrome.


Many years later after lots of elections, events, books, study, and discussion, I realized that holy shit, racism really is the central problem with our country, and the biggest roadblock to political progress.

Would be willing to bet my left testicle that if y'all didnt have such an easy means of separating via racism, you'd simply go further down the ladder towards hostilizing the Other. Is what happens even in homogenous societies, after all. Irish and italian immigration history should display that right enough, and even if different flavours of white weren't present, you'd most likely see fractures along the lines of specific religious currents or tastes.

Heck, we still have a problem with people not treating women with the same level of regard they treat men, even within the same race, religion, and with ample contact.

nah, racism is just a very evident symptom of a far more pernicious problem.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
You are correct that tapes labeled as "the Planned Parenthood tapes" do not have to necessarily contain footage exclusively from Planned Parenthood facilities, but you must also consider the purpose of Carly's use of the anecdote and the implications she is trying to make.

The purpose of the graphic story was to transfer negative emotive connotation from hearing about the details of a gruesome medical procedure to Planned Parenthood. Using footage from a different abortion practicing organization to transfer connotation onto Planned Parenthood is disingenuous.

Also, I'm going to make an extrapolation based on assumption of competence that if a group attempting to smear Planned Parenthood had been able to tie that footage to Planned Parenthood, they would have mentioned that the footage was specifically from Planned Parenthood. Not sure why they would neglect that since they went through the trouble to audio splice the colloquially referenced tapes, I don't think they would neglect to point something that significant out unless they had no proof tying that specific footage to Planned Parenthood. This is just conjecture, but I think it's reasonable enough conjecture to cast doubt.

It's like how when Fiorina was talking about marijuana she referenced the story of her daughter overdosing "on drugs". She did not lie, her daughter did die from abusing prescription drugs - but the fact that she brought the story up during a discussion about marijuana and was vague in describing the most relevant details, it is clear that the intention is that the average person will assume the "drugs" in question were marijuana or at least illegal drugs. This is technicaly not lying, but it is disingenuous presentation framed so that you make the wrong inferences. It's effective because if you accuse her of lying, that's not true - she told the truth, but in such a manner that people will make wrong inferences about the truth.

EDIT: Actually it looks like we agree from my perspective, we both agree that Fiorina was either misleading people or was misled herself but was not technically lying. And I think we both agree on principle that misleading statements are disingenuous and generally undesirable. And I think we both recognize that just saying she was "not lying" without clarifying that she was still being disingenuous is also misleading and that we are both careful to avoid our precision adjustments being misconstrued as disingenuous arguments in the other direction. I feel its important that you often play Devil's Advocate and make sure people aren't overdrawing their claims because intellectual rigor is what separates the informed from the uninformed. It's important that we don't allow ourselves to get into the habit of being carelessly imprecise or overdrawing our conclusions, because if left unchecked perhaps we would one day end up like Carly Fiorina and her GOP debate companions.

Let's start with your conjecture. You claim that if the baby-in-a-bowl footage was from Planned Parenthood, we would have been told it was from Planned Parenthood. I think that's a fair inference in the absence of contrary evidence, but we have contrary evidence. The organization that provided that footage to CMP claims they can't reveal the "organizational affiliation" of the abortion clinic where the footage was created, because their "access agreements forbid the disclosure of any information which might tend to identify the relevant clinics or personnel with whom we work." Presumably, this footage is obtained surreptitiously by working with personnel employed at the clinics, who would be less willing to provide assistance if they were not assured ahead of time that they would remain anonymous. Consequently, we have reason to reject your conjecture.

Second, let's talk about what was said, and what was meant (by which I mean, what was her purpose?). As to the former, I'll quote myself comparing just that with what the video referred to showed:

Again, here's what was described by Fiorina and [what was really shown or described in the video]: (1) a fully formed fetus [a fully formed fetus] (2) on a table [in a bowl on a table], (3) its heart beating [following a description of another intact fetus at a similar stage of development with a beating heart], (4) its legs kicking [the fetus-in-a-bowl was kicking its legs], (5) while someone says [immediately before someone said] (a) we have to keep it alive [they had to cut through its face] (b) to harvest its brain [to procure its brain].

So we know the problems with what she said (none of which is that no such video exists, contra initial "fact" checkers' conclusions). What was meant? We know that from the context in which Fiorina spoke: she meant that the videos reveal information about Planned Parenthood that make it morally incumbent on members of Congress to fight to defund it. Her example was the clip from the 7th CMP video. I assume she could cite more than just that example to make her point. In fact, I think some of her misstatements suggest some other revelations she considers sufficiently outrageous to demand congressional action: the "We have to keep it alive" part sounds inspired by the revelation that Planned Parenthood sometimes modifies its abortion procedures to make it more likely certain organs survive the procedure intact (which is illegal, btw); her use of the verb "to harvest" seems inspired by the bartering over body parts that was at least implied in some of the earliest videos released by CMP (which could show that PP is illegally profiting, but doesn't do so necessarily). However, even if we focus exclusively on the parts of the video she described that she got right, there's still an arguable basis for her outrage: Holly O'Donnell described an intact fetus whose brain was removed by cutting through his face moments after his heart was observed to be beating. For these reasons, I think the accusation she was lying or being misleading is at its weakest at this level of abstraction.
 
It doesnt matter what number you choose. It will only serve to reinforce the consensus opinion that randall ran away with the debate due to his thoughtful explanations, flawless logic, and sardonic skewering of the perfume selling escalateur leading the polls.
Not to mention that luscious hair i want to run my fingers through. Oh sempai, take me

This is great, lol. Would read again.

I don't really have an opinion on it, but your post gave me the impression that it was showing post-debate changes. Looks like Bam Bam Baklava thought so, too. I just wanted to clarify what was being shown in that chart.

I'm definitely interested in seeing more post-debate polling. I think things are going to start to get interesting.

Yes, I realized that. My apologies. It was not my intention to give off that impression. In fact, I had the same impression as you guys before you asked me about it, and then I realized that there was really only one post-debate poll.

I think we'll have to rely on individual polling until there is enough data to reflect a true change in the aggregate. I'll probably select only new polls for post-debates, or other events that could significantly change the general consensus.



I mean, it depends what you're trying to say. Usually the reason someone might post a poll aggregate is to say something about the state of the race right now. If something happened recently that might have shaken things up a lot, especially if you've already got some polls suggesting that that's the case, you probably don't want to rely on an aggregate that gives significant weight to responses from before whatever-it-was.

Right now, probably what most people want to know is what the debate did to people's numbers. So you probably want to know how things stood before the debate, which you can use an aggregate (of pre-debate polls) for. Then you want to know how things stand now, so you want to use only polls from after the debate. It's somewhat useful to be posting individual polls as they come out, since we've got nothing else to go on, but then you want to be averaging them together to try to come up with a best estimate of what the race looks like post-debate. I don't think we need to refrain from looking at polls until we have enough to cross some reliability threshold, but certainly we should be keeping in mind that averages of small numbers of polls could be pretty off.


Very insightful feedback. Thank you.

Yes, it is my intention to attempt to assess the state of the race at any given time, with as reliable information as can be possible, given the type of data we have to work with. It's the reason I came to PoliGAF.

Individual polls are valuable in the sense that they show us the perspective of certain demographics and voting blocs, and do so in a short period of time, which can be somewhat useful in gauging responses after significant situations and events. However, I have truly grown weary of the sensationalism of individual polling, especially heavily skewed ones from pollsters with slanted political leanings. By themselves, those kinds of polls are as valuable to me as a bag of rocks, and even that would probably be appraising them too much.

What I can do is change the dates to range from starting right before each debate or similarly significant event to present time. The truth is that we really don't need polling data from months ago to look at the state of the race right now. Months of polling data will be useful as historical data, but if I'm trying to gauge the general consensus of a specific point in time in the present, it would be best to use just the newest polls.

Of course, the problem is that using only new polls right when they come out is less reliable because the pool of data is too small and not as diverse. However, I have no problem with seeing the data become more accurate over time, so long as it isn't weighed down by a bunch of outdated polls.

EDIT:

So it turns out that I can filter which pollsters can be included in the aggregate. Awesome! When more polls come in post-debate, I'll update the aggregate again only with pollsters who have updated data.
 

User 406

Banned
Would be willing to bet my left testicle that if y'all didnt have such an easy means of separating via racism, you'd simply go further down the ladder towards hostilizing the Other. Is what happens even in homogenous societies, after all. Irish and italian immigration history should display that right enough, and even if different flavours of white weren't present, you'd most likely see fractures along the lines of specific religious currents or tastes.

Heck, we still have a problem with people not treating women with the same level of regard they treat men, even within the same race, religion, and with ample contact.

nah, racism is just a very evident symptom of a far more pernicious problem.

There's dozens of books for you to read that will make your groin feel very uncomfortable.

Seriously, the reason our social safety net, labor standards, and economic equality metrics have gone from being ahead or at parity with the other developed nations to dead-ass last is because black people were allowed to share in them, so poor whites instantly started voting to tear down everything they had fought for. It's the reason our gun culture is insane, the reason our police is militarized and overly violent, the reason our primary educational system is fractured, the reason we've demonized taxes to the point that our state infrastructures are crumbling, and the reason our prison system is so huge and our incarceration rates are so high.

Non-Americans really don't grasp just how big an impact slavery, Reconstruction, Jim Crow, the Great Migration, redlining, white flight, busing, and media stereotyping had on us, shit, most Americans don't understand it. Yes, otherizing is sadly normal, but in the case of black people we took it to very extreme and extensively self destructive lengths.
 

User 406

Banned
Trump is playing with a handicap. If he would just shave his head, it would be over.

image_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg


He'd look so badass he'd do all that, "I'D TELL PUTIN TO KNOCK IT OFF" stuff and Putin would be like, "ok :("
 
I would have said Rubio.

Honestly, Paul's or Rubio's younger versions of themselves looked moderately attractive. But at their ages now, it's hard for me to entertain the idea of any candidate in the running attractive, with the exception of Fiorina, because damn, as a 61 year old woman, she looks GOOD.

I suppose out of the guys, I would say Rubio, simply because he's the least unattractive.


BTW, I had an idea for a thread, but since I can't make those yet, I figured I'd just ask you guys in here (if someone else wants to make a thread about it, I'm cool with that too).

I thought it would be cool to do a yearbook comparison of all of the candidates (even though there aren't any yearbook photos available for some of them).

I know many people have posted younger pics of the candidates, but I like the yearbook comparison because it's a more serious and professional look at them from their younger days. If no yearbook picture is available, I will attempt to find a yearbook-style photo to use in its place.

Here we go!

PRESIDENTIAL CLASS OF 2016:


Hillary Clinton

hillary_clinton_yearbook_photo.png


Bernie Sanders

Mmu07yN.jpg



Joe Biden

gc5yoylkd9axxjrsqyuk.jpg



Martin O'Malley

OMalley.jpg


Jim Webb

*no yearbook picture available*

Lincoln Chafee

*no yearbook picture available*

Donald Trump

trump_1.jpg


Ben Carson

ben-carson-27.jpg


Jeb Bush

Jeb-Bush-001_jpg_800x1000_q100.jpg



Ted Cruz

45896731.cached.jpg


Marco Rubio

marco-rubio-life-in-pic003.jpg


Mike Huckabee

*no yearbook picture available*

Scott Walker

scott_walker_senior_photo.jpg



John Kasich

e1eaMVV.jpg



Rand Paul

KROSs2c.jpg


Carly Fiorina

wcIJMZM.jpg


Chris Christie

aszrkp1slvcobwe8dkmj.jpg



Rick Santorum

mwm869w5qvceeslth8gb.jpg


Bobby Jindal

dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls


Lindsey Graham

4f87b8a0-45b5-453e-9165-65266370d004.jpg


Jim Gilmore

5515470cad6d8.image.jpg


George Pataki

Pataki.jpg



Fun question:

Which graduate do you think looks the most 'presidential'?
 

Tarkus

Member
I guess Biden looks the most presidential.

Jeb! looks like he has a van with no windows and needs to be arrested for child molestation.

brainchild: Save the Carly pic and host it on imgur.
I'm guessing that I would bang her.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
goddamn is it hot in here or is it just joe biden

*tugging at collar*

i mean

(It's probably not a good idea for us to be looking at photos of the candidates and deciding if we would or not. Seriously. ;))
 
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