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PoliGAF 2016 |OT13| For Queen and Country

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Joeytj

Banned
They're really going this route? Really?

They are going to argue Obama wasn't legitimately elected because of voter fraud in North Carolina 8 years ago? Despite the fact that he won despite it, and the Constitution doesn't care about the popular vote, just the way electors cast their vote in the Electoral College.

Idiots, this will just reignite the birther controversy.
 
They are going to argue Obama wasn't legitimately elected because of voter fraud in North Carolina 8 years ago? Despite the fact that he won despite it, and the Constitution doesn't care about the popular vote, just the way electors cast their vote in the Electoral College.

Idiots, this will just reignite the birther controversy.

This is a less racist birther movement...in the end it deligitimizes Obama and soon Clinton.
 
Talking about a rigged election is an offense to actual rigged elections: See Maduro, Lukashenko, PRI and other actual election riggers.
 
If you pay it in payments, you'd have to pay interest on it, which would balloon the amount of money needed to pay it off.
well then there's a sweet spot between interest paid and minimizing inflation.

(I'm going to stop defending Jill Stein now.)

I mean, you could probably achieve the same effect by sending every american in demographic/earnings group x a $200 check every month without the headache of trying to directly pay off millions of student loans. It would still be a dumb thing to do, but would be way simpler.
I agree!
 
They are going to argue Obama wasn't legitimately elected because of voter fraud in North Carolina 8 years ago? Despite the fact that he won despite it, and the Constitution doesn't care about the popular vote, just the way electors cast their vote in the Electoral College.

Idiots, this will just reignite the birther controversy.

Yes, that crucial state of North Carolina which pushed Obama's margin of victory from 162 to 192. The fraud there really handed Obama the election.
 
The value of the dollar would only go down if you released that trillion into the economy at once. If you scheduled the payments over time to coincide exactly with the required payments of each individual loan then there would probably be a much smaller inflationary effect.

I agree that those people weren't going to pay that debt off for many years. So the increase in each individual's spending would actually be very small. That's another small inflationary effect. (Such a claim demands quantifcation but I can't give that. Sorry.) Also, they're unlikely to replace that debt with new debt because the college loans were government backed, but most other debt is not as easy to obtain.

Anyway I do agree it's bad fiscal policy. You devalue the dollar for no liquidity and little spending power. Not good! But "disaster" seems to be a non-sequitur. That's all I'm saying :p

Yeah, it wouldn't be that bad, actually.It's just stupid because there largely isn't a student debt crisis, and 1.3 trillion has better uses than forgiving debt.

These two articles lay it out better than I feel any need to.

Btw, I do plan to respond to your message eventually, when midterm season is over, probably.

Also quantitative easing didn't erase bank debt. The lender just became the fed, so Stein is dumb.
 
This is a less racist birther movement...in the end it deligitimizes Obama and soon Clinton.
Is it less racist? It rests on an insinuation that fraud is rampant in inner city polling stations. I'm from Chicago, I know funny business goes on. But that is almost entirely based on primary election fuckery. Rigging or significantly impacting a general election is nearly impossible in the United States.
 
As Campfireweekend could tell you, I don't know anything about economics, but quantitative easing is just the government purchase of bank held assets, right? The government could totally buy all of the student loan debt in the country and just never collect. It would economically just function as a transfer payment. All of the arguments I've heard against total loan forgiveness are that it's a poorly reasoned stimulus and goes to the wrong people (richer people end up at richer schools; why not just give the money to the poor and homeless who are more likely to spend it) and it's also a lot of money. But it's not impossible and I don't know think there's anything to suggest there would be economic collapse.

Well, no and yes. In the US, QE is the buying of federal reserve notes or at times mortgage backed securities. They can't, for instance, just buy your specific loan to buy a car. Or buy a bank's building (should it own it). These are also assets.

It also doesn't have the power to forgive these loans even if it could buy student loans. The reason QE assets bought seem to be forgiven is because it owes itself the money. Paying itself is the same as not paying. But if they own the student loan debt, someone has to pay the loan. And again, it doesn't have power to just forgive it. The Federal Reserve does not have to ability to buy liabilities, only assets.

This is crucial because when the Fed bought MBS through QE, those payments were still owned. It could not forgive it. Jill Stein doesn't appear to know this. Now, it's possible the Fed could get away with forgiving, but we don't know. It's never been attempted and it's not codified specifically in law. It would definitely lead to lawsuits from...someone.

And some of the debt is through the Dept of Education, which the Fed probably can't access.


For Jill Stein's plan to work, she'd probably have to get Congress to pass numerous laws, I'd imagine. She doesn't have the power to forgive debt...and the whole point of her plan is to ignore Congress...

There's other issues. The Fed is supposed to be independent, recall. And forgiving all student debt is very inefficient. A lot of student debt is actually not a problem at all. Make targeting student debt forgiveness, not en masse.

The point of QE is an extreme measure to put money into the economy in a massive way (remember, with a RR of 10%, every $1 put in can become $10). It has nothing to do with forgiving debt of any kind. When the Fed buys Treasury notes, it is basically just paying off the debt early at a premium, not forgiving it. It doesn't forgive MBS. Why would student debt be any different?

Main point: QE doesn't forgive debt.
 
Birther 2: Tarheel Boogaloo

2008 elections were legit. This is an offense to the volunteers and professionals who worked super hard to make sure that an extended early voting period went smoothly and more people voted than ever in the state.
 

Boke1879

Member
Why in Gods name is Trumps staff even trying to push this on CNN? Do they think they'll lose NC and want to get the narrative out beforehand?

Ok cool, but why in the fuck are you bringing up Obama?
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
I admit that you guys are giving some compelling arguments against term limits.

But for a compelling counterargument, consider that Jim Inhofe (R-OK) is probably the worst senator in the country and he's been re-elected 4 times.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Talking about a rigged election is an offense to actual rigged elections: See Maduro, Lukashenko, PRI and other actual election riggers.

Putin, Donald's assbuddy.

I still think the justice deparment needs to take lawnmower to some people on november 9th. Having an entire subset of pundits pushing the idea that our election is rigged and actively advocating for a foreing power to throw their weight around has to have some consequences.

But it won't, because those people will just cite all the times the US dethroned an active leader or something.
 
Well, no and yes. In the US, QE is the buying of federal reserve notes or at times mortgage backed securities. They can't, for instance, just buy your specific loan to buy a car. Or buy a bank's building (should it own it). These are also assets.

It also doesn't have the power to forgive these loans even if it could buy student loans. The reason QE assets bought seem to be forgiven is because it owes itself the money. Paying itself is the same as not paying. But if they own the student loan debt, someone has to pay the loan. And again, it doesn't have power to just forgive it. The Federal Reserve does not have to ability to buy liabilities, only assets.

This is crucial because when the Fed bought MBS through QE, those payments were still owned. It could not forgive it. Jill Stein doesn't appear to know this. Now, it's possible the Fed could get away with forgiving, but we don't know. It's never been attempted and it's not codified specifically in law. It would definitely lead to lawsuits from...someone.

And some of the debt is through the Dept of Education, which the Fed probably can't access.


For Jill Stein's plan to work, she'd probably have to get Congress to pass numerous laws, I'd imagine. She doesn't have the power to forgive debt...and the whole point of her plan is to ignore Congress...

There's other issues. The Fed is supposed to be independent, recall. And forgiving all student debt is very inefficient. A lot of student debt is actually not a problem at all. Make targeting student debt forgiveness, not en masse.

The point of QE is an extreme measure to put money into the economy in a massive way (remember, with a RR of 10%, every $1 put in can become $10). It has nothing to do with forgiving debt of any kind. When the Fed buys Treasury notes, it is basically just paying off the debt early at a premium, not forgiving it. It doesn't forgive MBS. Why would student debt be any different?

Main point: QE doesn't forgive debt.

She actually wants to end Fed independence and put it under the authority of the treasury. Also she wants to end fractional reserve banking.

Literally a crazy person that won't get 1% of votes. No need to keep talking about her.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The "rigged election" narrative makes no fucking sense unless you are intentionally trying to set fire to every race downticket.

Actually, hmmm...
 
I'm pretty scared. That James Okeefe video is now top trending on YouTube and Trump and Trump people on TV trying to delegitimizing our democracy. I'm afraid a lot of people are going to buy this just because "this election is so crazy, both sides are doing crazy stuff." Am I just bedwetting or are other people worried as well?
 
I admit that you guys are giving some compelling arguments against term limits.

But for a compelling counterargument, consider that Jim Inhofe (R-OK) is probably the worst senator in the country and he's been re-elected 4 times.

That's the exact thinking I don't like.

Its pretends we can just magically erase opponents through changing of the rules.

That's similar logic to voter ID laws and other restrictions to voting. He wins because he's popular and democrats can't come up with an opponent.
 
She actually wants to end Fed independence and put it under the authority of the treasury. Also she wants to end fractional reserve banking.

Literally a crazy person that won't get 1% of votes. No need to keep talking about her.

Didn't know about the treasury part and fractional reserve banking, lolz.


I agree about her being a crazy person but she came up because someone here said they're voting for her.

Voting for Jill Stein is the biggest waste of a vote ever. Like, Gary Johnson sucks but at least he's not completely crazy.

I'd rather write in Mickey Mouse than vote Jill Stein. Make your throwaway vote at least interesting.
 

jmdajr

Member
Is Trump family business damaged goods from election?

Officials with the Trump Organization in an interview with NPR denied the campaign has tarnished the Trump brand, but outside evidence -- and some of the company’s own recent actions -- suggest the leaders of Trump business units are bracing for fallout.

The location-based app Foursquare reports traffic is down this year at Trump hotels, casinos and resorts -- a 16 percent tumble in September, compared to the same month in 2015. That decline follows a trend that began in March. The biggest drops in foot traffic are among women and in Democrat-leaning “blue” states -- where Trump has most of his properties, Foursquare reports.

Trump’s career as a mainstream entertainer may be over as well, the New York Post reported last week. The man who hosted NBC’s The Apprentice for 14 seasons has seen his brand value tumble at least 50 percent, James Moses, head of United Entertainment Group, told the Post.

“I do not think Trump has a future in television, especially mainstream format,” Moses said. “The best thing for his brand will be to allow his kids to take center stage and let them be the face and personality of Trump Inc.”

In fact, surveys by Brand Keys shows the value the Trump brand adds to a consumer product or service has fallen from 43 percent to 25 percent.
 

BSsBrolly

Banned
I'm pretty scared. That James Okeefe video is now top trending on YouTube and Trump and Trump people on TV trying to delegitimizing our democracy. I'm afraid a lot of people are going to buy this just because "this election is so crazy, both sides are doing crazy stuff." Am I just bedwetting or are other people worried as well?

James O'Keefe does this every election. His doctored videos are inevitably debunked. This will be a thing for conservatives and nobody else.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
If any one knows about rigging elections it's The Republicans with their gerrymandering and strict voter ID laws.

I loved the arguments that "Democrats Gerrymander too!".

But only one party wants to get rid of it altogether...
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I admit that you guys are giving some compelling arguments against term limits.

But for a compelling counterargument, consider that Jim Inhofe (R-OK) is probably the worst senator in the country and he's been re-elected 4 times.

And then you lose guys like Ted Kennedy on our side. You also lose a shit ton of institutional knowledge and just speed up the very cycle that creates corrupt politicians. Term limits don't actually do any of the things proponents think they will.
 

Cyanity

Banned
I'm pretty scared. That James Okeefe video is now top trending on YouTube and Trump and Trump people on TV trying to delegitimizing our democracy. I'm afraid a lot of people are going to buy this just because "this election is so crazy, both sides are doing crazy stuff." Am I just bedwetting or are other people worried as well?

You need to factor in the fact that most of the Trump campaign's online presence is propped up by bots trying to increase the viewcount/upvotes on everything in order to make all of the batshit stuff they've been promoting seem more legitimate than it actually is. I'm pretty sure most of the views on that video are either ecbo chamber conspiracy theorists or bots.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Yeah but that's Oklahoma :p

Doubtless that another Republican would replace him but it wouldn't be harder to get some Republican who's better than he is. Remember, this is the snowball guy who now happens to be the Chairman of the Environment and Public Works Committee.
 
CvE_NxmWYAIpMBY.jpg
 

Joeytj

Banned
I'm pretty scared. That James Okeefe video is now top trending on YouTube and Trump and Trump people on TV trying to delegitimizing our democracy. I'm afraid a lot of people are going to buy this just because "this election is so crazy, both sides are doing crazy stuff." Am I just bedwetting or are other people worried as well?

It's scary in general that Trump is trying to delegitimize democracy, but not that video. If they didn't have that O'Keefe video, they would grab onto something else, etc. And top trends on YouTube are also based on your searches and location, so don't think it has much of a wide circulation outside of Trump supporters.
 
I'm pretty scared. That James Okeefe video is now top trending on YouTube and Trump and Trump people on TV trying to delegitimizing our democracy. I'm afraid a lot of people are going to buy this just because "this election is so crazy, both sides are doing crazy stuff." Am I just bedwetting or are other people worried as well?

O'Keefe has no credibility, that's just conservative entertainment. The bubble is big enough to trend on YouTube.
 
Didn't know about the treasury part and fractional reserve banking, lolz.


I agree about her being a crazy person but she came up because someone here said they're voting for her.

Voting for Jill Stein is the biggest waste of a vote ever. Like, Gary Johnson sucks but at least he's not completely crazy.

I'd rather write in Mickey Mouse than vote Jill Stein. Make your throwaway vote at least interesting.
Shit, then carry on. I didn't catch that part lol

I've had my fill of arguing with stein voters in real life, but eh, it's berkeley.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Doubtless that another Republican would replace him but it wouldn't be harder to get some Republican who's better than he is. Remember, this is the snowball guy who now happens to be the Chairman of the Environment and Public Works Committee.

And who is to say the guy that replaces him is better? With term limits you're going to go through the list of decent candidates fast, and the bottom of the barrel isn't pretty.
 
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