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PoliGAF 2016 |OT15| Orange is the New Black

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S

shinra-bansho

Member
Crab said:
Yes. There's no denying that. So we need to figure out how to either address the base economic anxiety or figure out how to explain that minorities and immigrants didn't cause it, instead of the status quo Democratic approach which is just ignoring the rural world and waiting for it to die.
Click to expand...
I mean I've said before. I think things need to be done to address these people displaced in the new and global economy. You're far more versed in economics than I or most, and I assume would agree that the benefits of open economies are greater than the disadvantages. The problem being the advantages are dispersed, while the disadvantaged tend to be concentrated. And further, these people don't tend to be mobile, for whatever reason.

So yes, trade adjustment assistance is pitiful and should have been directed better towards these communities. And education policy needs to enable these people and their children to become, as condescending as it sounds, enlightened about with regard to social issues.

But.
I still think they're twats. And I'll call a racist a racist. Because I'm not running for election.
And I don't think the Democrats will win them back.

They should still benefit from good policy making though. If and when the Democrats ever get back into power.
 
U

UraMallas

Member
FIREKNIGHT2029 said:
The "both sides" people that stayed at home are the people to blame here from what I can see. Absolutely dreadful. I'm just praying for our future now. It's all i can do.
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The both sides people would have never voted for Hillary. Never. I don't know how many of those people you've talked to but living in IA, I know quite a few. The only reason the were both sides is because they despised Hillary and couldn't vote Trump morally.

Honestly, now that this has all shaken out it was here in front of me the whole time. I think there is a tremendous amount of people in these predominantly white and uneducated areas that were duped by Hillary's framing over the years by the right. It's a true and irrational hatred of that person in particular out here for a lot of people.
 
B

bplewis24

Neo Member
Kid Heart said:
That assumes most of them don't try to abandon ship now. :/
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Which is a very real possibility. They are likely to be disillusioned right now, as some of us likely are.

Sibylus said:
I've no illusions about what's more likely to happen.

What needs to happen, though? As broad an antifa coalition as possible. Good fucking luck turning back the fascist groundswell by bailing out the boat every few years in elections. Authoritarianism is clearly rooted deeper and more widespread in America than anyone might have reasonably guessed, and that requires no less than a widespread movement to repudiate it and provide an alternative.
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As much as I would agree with you there, I simply have no idea what that would look like. What moderates are going to help form that coalition? And how are they going to hold together a liberal coalition that may struggle with enthusiasm after this result?
 
B

banefirelord

Banned
Boke1879 said:
In a few days reality sets in but people will go about their routine. I think people are glad it's over but also fucking depressed as well if that makes any sense.
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That's kinda what I'm feeling...bummed but also relaxed in a weird way. It was very gratifying and comforting to see my mom shrug it off this morning with a "if we survived Nixon and Reagan, we'll survive this" attitude after seeing her sobbing last night.

Also having this shake out to be 2000 Part 2 makes me feel much better than it having been a popular vote blowout for Trump. It feels less like "evil won" and more like "evil navigated the dumb system slightly more efficiently."
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
sphagnum said:
Yes, and?

The two are linked in these white racists' minds. They DO feel economically anxious, but they blame it on minorities because that's who they've been conditioned to believe is the source of the problem. If the Dems had campaigned hard on anti Wall Street populism they probably could have stunted that narrative somewhat.
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They don't blame Wall Street. They blame (((Wall Street))).
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Black Mamba said:
Okay, i mostly agree. But.

white working class voters voted based on race, not economics IMO. The divide in class but really it's education. Education leads to changes in class, after all.

Less educated people are more likely to be bigoted.

Why would any poor working class person vote Republican to begin with? It's mostly nonsensical without race involved.
Click to expand...

Class drives education, though. If you live in a poor area as a child, you'll go to a worse quality school, and are less likely to go to a good university, and are more likely to have a worse job, and are more likely to live in a poor area when you have children. Look at, for example, social mobility in the Ivy League - it's atrocious. The number of people at Harvard from white rural backgrounds is minuscule.

The working class didn't vote Republican, per se, they voted Trump - they patently failed to vote Romney. They're voting for him because he recognized their problems - the collapse of the rural economy - and told them the solution was getting rid of the immigrants and stopping cheap Chinese goods. And they believed him, because... who else was talking to them? What did Clinton have to say to the Rust Belt? I don't know. I don't think anybody knows. Most people aren't interested in politics. They vote against their interests literally all the time - everyone does, white, black, young, old, poor, rich. They rely on a few basic channels of input and a few basic criteria to establish trust. Trump listened. That made him someone to trust. Clinton didn't, so she wasn't. She didn't even pretend to under stand them.

People in this thread have recommended A Hillbilly's Elegy before, but man, that book was already written a long time ago under the name The Road to Wigan Pier, and it needs reading again.
 
P

Pixieking

Banned
Coriolanus said:
Fwiw, he also said/lied that he'd bring them back. Wouldn't discount that.
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Mmmm, which factors into my other post - the Trump voter is unwilling to look past the easy talk and ask how something is going to be done. "The Chinese have your jobs, but I'll bring them back." It's gross intellectual laziness to not ask - at some point during the past 3 months - how he expects to do that. And, once again, the media failed here. They let Rudy and others weasel there way out of answering those questions.
 
B

bplewis24

Neo Member
sphagnum said:
If Trump really did do better with minorities, then I can only lunch assume it is due to economic reasons, ergo the Dems need to go hard on populism.
Click to expand...

We had a chance, and we rejected it.

And, guys, while the popular vote may hearten some of you, it shouldn't. Look at the distribution of the map. Even if the Electoral College was done away with, there would be massive amounts of the country that would have to deal with conservative bullshit at the local level. Our liberal/progressive vote is getting more and more concentrated in places that cancels itself out when it comes to the house/senate and local politics.
 
B

Blader

Member
I got barely two hours of sleep last night. I couldn't eat. I feel sick to my stomach today and still can't believe what happened.

I feel absolutely shaken to my core, in a way I've rarely ever felt. Like a death of a loved one, or a really bad break up. Like the world just flipped upside down. Maybe that sounds dramatic but I'm really reeling.

I'm nervous and upset and genuinely afraid. Afraid of what he will do as president, because I really have no idea. Afraid of the people he's going to surround himself with, building a cabinet that looks born to undo all of the progress made in this country and be as clueless as he is. Afraid of how Trump's climate change denying will affect not just the Paris deal, but the entire world. We were at a breaking point in at least slowing down the pace of global warming and now we're about to hit the gas on it. Afraid of the impact this will have on voting rights and future elections, and shut out Democrats on all levels of government for a long time. Afraid that Obama's entire legacy, all of the progress of the last eight years and the potential it held for the future, will be erased, like he was never even there.

I'm afraid and sick over what happened and what the fuck will happen next.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
Poodlestrike said:
Sez you. Then it becomes a battle between two different scapegoats (anti-minority and anti-wall street). Which do you think would be stronger?
Click to expand...

Probably anti minority, but I think if the Dems hadn't picked a candidate seen as Establishment Incarnate and gave a fighting populist counter narrative then they would've stood a chance to combat it.
 
T

teruterubozu

Member
Pixieking said:
Basic assumptions. What did Trump do that was different? Who did he bring out based on what the media and campaigns were saying?

Racists.
Misogynists.
Low-skilled/jobless (the Rust Belt and Rural voters).
Anti-abortion voters (who should be ashamed of themselves for absolving Trump of assaulting women).
People who hate fatties (file with Misogynists).
People who hate Muslims and Others (including those minorities who take the "Fuck you, I got mine" stance).

Most importantly, though, and this is a cross-section of the above:

People who don't care about facts. It's all about the feelings - "I can get jobs back", without people caring how. No willingness to look beyond the veil, and educate them selves on the issues.

Way to try and fix that? Early voting with booklets describing every measure, policy and candidate.
Click to expand...

A booklet? For people who don't give two shits about reading? Yeah that'll work.
 
B

bplewis24

Neo Member
sphagnum said:
If Trump really did do better with minorities, then I can only lunch assume it is due to economic reasons, ergo the Dems need to go hard on populism.
Click to expand...

Black Mamba said:
Okay, i mostly agree. But.

white working class voters voted based on race, not economics IMO. The divide in class but really it's education. Education leads to changes in class, after all.

Less educated people are more likely to be bigoted.

Why would any poor working class person vote Republican to begin with? It's mostly nonsensical without race involved.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I'm waiting for the media to harp on this. But, given their failings the last few months let alone this past 8 years, I won't hold my breath.

People can pretend this is about misogyny or economic anxiety all they want, but this is simply about more of the country being bigoted than most people want to believe. Yes, a lot of people dislike Hillary Clinton. Yes, there is a lot of misogyny. Yes, people are railing against the establishment. But this is much, much more about white identity politics, and rejecting support for Blacks, Latinos and anybody who looks Muslim.
 
P

Pixieking

Banned
teruterubozu said:
A booklet? For people who don't give two shits about reading? Yeah that'll work.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know, you can't force them to read it. But even if you asked them to watch a film, there's no guarantee they'd pay attention. Do the best you can to educate, and hope that you catch enough that it makes a difference.
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
shinra-bansho said:
They don't blame Wall Street. They blame (((Wall Street))).
Click to expand...

You are constantly reading past us.

I KNOW that they're racists and their beliefs aren't logical. But the globalist thing isn't just about Jews. They view Jews as globalists they don't think all globalists aesthetic Jews. If you try to redirect there anger towards who deserves it, the elite, you stand a chance at redirecting the narrative.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
For all the joking people did about "secret white voter" in this thread over the past month, that's the ACTUAL vote that turned the election. I can't believe how wrong most people in here were.

The democrats have ignored the rural white voter for way too long. It finally bit them on the national level.
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
I mean this is probably semantic. But did Trump actually listen? Does Trump actually listen to anyone? He sure made them think he listened I suppose, as he shat on his gold-plated toilet made in China.
 
Q

QuiteWhittle

Member
banefirelord said:
I feel oddly calm after having gotten some sleep. Strange feeling.
Click to expand...

When Trump started to win Florida I tried to tune out the election and was planning to read the results this morning but I had this deep anxiety that I couldn't shake and I couldn't sleep for hours. Then I said fuck it, read the results, saw that my worst fears were confirmed, and slept like baby when the anxiety drained away to leave nothing but hollow antipathy.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Blader said:
I got barely two hours of sleep last night. I couldn't eat. I feel sick to my stomach today and still can't believe what happened.

I feel absolutely shaken to my core, in a way I've rarely ever felt. Like a death of a loved one, or a really bad break up. Like the world just flipped upside down. Maybe that sounds dramatic but I'm really reeling.

I'm nervous and upset and genuinely afraid. Afraid of what he will do as president, because I really have no idea. Afraid of the people he's going to surround himself with, building a cabinet that looks born to undo all of the progress made in this country and be as clueless as he is. Afraid of how Trump's climate change denying will affect not just the Paris deal, but the entire world. We were at a breaking point in at least slowing down the pace of global warming and now we're about to hit the gas on it. Afraid of the impact this will have on voting rights and future elections, and shut out Democrats on all levels of government for a long time. Afraid that Obama's entire legacy, all of the progress of the last eight years and the potential it held for the future, will be erased, like he was never even there.

I'm afraid and sick over what happened and what the fuck will happen next.
Click to expand...
The American political structure has always f'd over Urban areas.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Magni said:
While I love Michelle, I'd rather not have an Obama, Clinton, Bush, or Trump win in 2020. Let's get some fresh blood in there.
Click to expand...

At this rate, the only way a Democrat will win is if it's a celebrity or a businessman like Mark Cuban.
 
P

Pixieking

Banned
Grief.exe said:
I kept waking up thinking I had a nightmare, only to realize the reality.
Click to expand...

I haven't... Really... Slept. Not properly, anyways. Been awake for 30 hours with some light sleep in between. I just need to keep on doing something, even if it's just reading random websites.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Crab said:
Class drives education, though. If you live in a poor area as a child, you'll go to a worse quality school, and are less likely to go to a good university, and are more likely to have a worse job, and are more likely to live in a poor area when you have children. Look at, for example, social mobility in the Ivy League - it's atrocious. The number of people at Harvard from white rural backgrounds is minuscule.

The working class didn't vote Republican, per se, they voted Trump - they patently failed to vote Romney. They're voting for him because he recognized their problems - the collapse of the rural economy - and told them the solution was getting rid of the immigrants and stopping cheap Chinese goods. And they believed him, because... who else was talking to them? What did Clinton have to say to the Rust Belt? I don't know. I don't think anybody knows. Most people aren't interested in politics. They vote against their interests literally all the time - everyone does, white, black, young, old, poor, rich. They rely on a few basic channels of input and a few basic criteria to establish trust. Trump listened. That made him someone to trust. Clinton didn't, so she wasn't. She didn't even pretend to under stand them.

People in this thread have recommended A Hillbilly's Elegy before, but man, that book was already written a long time ago under the name The Road to Wigan Pier, and it needs reading again.
Click to expand...

He only repeated back to them what they were already saying...

I don't understand how anyone could think Trump was someone to Trust. He lies about everything and anything. It was simply ignored.

Clinton did say things but it was ignored by the media because Trump was saying something stupid or emails.

Clinton had no shot with these people after decades of being torn down. That is obvious, now.

These people have been fed bullshit and lies and believe it and I think they believe it because of their fear of the "other." That's what I think really motivates them in these parts.

I'd much rather you be right and me wrong but I don't think I am.
 
K

Kusagari

Member
Exit polls have 13% of black men not voting for Hillary.

Huge when you look at the depressed leads in places like Detroit and Philly compared to Obama.
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
sphagnum said:
You are constantly reading past us.

I KNOW that they're racists and their beliefs aren't logical. But the globalist thing isn't just about Jews. They view Jews as globalists they don't think all globalists aesthetic Jews. If you try to redirect there anger towards who deserves it, the elite, you stand a chance at redirecting the narrative.
Click to expand...
I'm not reading past you.
I know what you're saying.
I just disagree.
There is no grand worker's coalition to be had.
These people do not want to share a party with black people or gays and women who think that they should get to decide what their vaginas do.
I guess if you want you can jettison them.

Bernie Sanders does not get them to vote alongside minority interests.
Elizabeth Warren doesn't.
Joe Biden doesn't.
Kamala Harris won't.
 
K

kirblar

Member
shinra-bansho said:
I'm not reading past you.
I know what you're saying.
I just disagree.
There is no grand worker's coalition to be had.
These people do not want to share a party with black people or gays and women who think that they should get to decide what their vaginas do.
I guess if you want you can jettison them.
Click to expand...
@jbouie has been teeing off on this stuff for weeks/months. It's not about class unity. It's about people needing to be the farmers on Animal Farm and getting upset when others try to better their position.
 
D

Diablos

Member
FIREKNIGHT2029 said:
Once again we get fucked over by the electoral college. It's 2000 all over again. I'm starting to wonder if Bernie would have done better.
Click to expand...
No, he basically ignored the AA vote. Younger people loved him but the older demographics favored Hillary iirc in southern swing states.

Biden is who should have run.
 
G

Grexeno

Member
Bernie Sanders couldn't get enough minorities to vote for him to win the Democratic nomination and he's going to get enough to beat Trump? lolololol
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
shinra-bansho said:
I'm not reading past you.
I know what you're saying.
I just disagree.
There is no grand worker's coalition to be had.
These people do not want to share a party with black people or gays and women who think that they should get to decide what their vaginas do.
I guess if you want you can jettison them.

Bernie Sanders does not get them to vote alongside minority interests.
Elizabeth Warren doesn't.
Joe Biden doesn't.
Kamala Harris won't.
Click to expand...

But Sanders did. Sanders was simultaneously talk about civil justice reform and doing considerably well in the Rust Belt, where he notched up some of his bigger wins. Warren probably couldn't - she's too east coast, metropolitan, and educated. She's too different from the sort of people that need to be connected with. Harris has the same problem. I think Biden might have been able to do it; it depends on how he structured his campaign. He has the background to leverage some trust, but I think if he'd made a serious run it would have been Clinton-esque in tone.

The next Democratic President will come from a relatively poor background. They might be a minority or a women, but if they are, they won't make identity politics their front and centre campaign theme. They'll be a political outsider with relatively little experience. They'll almost certainly not come from the coastal states. They won't be Ivy League, they'll have a more humble background. They'll be relatively populist - their campaign will focus on jobs and growth and the rich, and they'll deal with free trade and immigration only minimally.

Those are my bets.

Also, without meaning to at all, I've ended up describing Sanders and to a much lesser extent Biden. I have definitely not described Clinton.

EDIT: I'd be surprised if they identified as socialist or talked about being overtly leftist, though - Sanders was slightly different to what I think will prove the winning formula. They'll use very simple language about fairness and deservedness and people getting their dues and about the "struggling classes who barely make ends meet". They're definitely not going to talk about the bourgeoisie and the proletarian or get overly wonky, because that makes them too academic to be a man/woman of the people.
 
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