I feel your pain.
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT15| Orange is the New Black
- Thread starter Y2Kev
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"Corrupt" Hillary isn't a label? We had political labels this cycle, just not the traditional ones we're used to.
I don't think this is a great explanation. I think charisma and likeability and whatever else are not that important, and really this election helps to show that.
The way I've been thinking about this for a while now is that we have this very tribal politics. People really only think about politics anymore as a zero-sum competition between two sides, or maybe three including The Establishment (but often this is rolled into the other side). And people feel like what we need to do is simple and obvious. Their problems are pretty easy to fix if only someone who actually wanted to fix them could get elected - if only we could elect someone from the right side. So when judging candidates people are looking above all else at that - the big question is just what side a politician is on. People are looking for markers of tribal affiliation.
Clinton's weaknesses here are obvious. But the really important dynamic is what's often glossed as racism (and I'm not arguing that it isn't racism). Because lots of non-college whites understand themselves to be on a different side from minorities, minority outreach of any sort is going to turn them off. They don't need to understand themselves as having anything against minorities, and they don't need to be hateful or discriminatory or anything like that - they just need to have some not-necessarily-conscious sense that their political interests are opposed. So if you're on their side you're not on our side.
Trump's strength with white voters derives from what you could call "vice signalling". He's strategically non-PC in order to demonstrate that he must be on the side of white voters. Nobody who's aligned with minorities could talk that way. And The Establishment hates him too, so clearly he's not with them. So he must be with white people, since that's the only other option. There's not really room here for a notion of a politician as just a jackass. Many of them are genuinely offended by some of the things he says, but those same things that offend them also demonstrate that he's aligned with them and is likely to serve their interests in office. None of the specifics matter and many are happy to excuse various insane things he says because, again, any idiot could solve our problems as long as they actually tried to. And he's got at least a few ideas that strike them as exactly the simple and obvious solutions we need, like tearing up all the trade deals or whatever.
I think this goes a long way towards explaining Sanders' popularity too. I mean, he was certainly not charismatic in any normal sense of the word. The appeal was and is pretty clearly about how he's on our side and would be a leader who would finally take the obvious steps that need to be taken and which have been avoided so far because everyone in power is corrupt. And he demonstrated this to Democratic primary voters in a variety of ways. Notably, though, he didn't really connect with minorities. He didn't come up with a good hard-to-fake signal that he was really on their side, and since he got a late start he was always going to be viewed suspiciously. I suspect this very failure to connect, in itself and totally independently of any policy he put on his website, would have helped him with white voters in the general, though obviously being an atheist Jew socialist was going to hurt.
Edit: Obama's big advantage was that he could carefully avoid any sort of racialized language. He could talk as if he was only trying to win white voters, but black voters would trust him anyway. White voters didn't really hear anything that suggested that he wasn't on their side. Jeremiah Wright and others were second-hand, and he denounced them. Like, even if you think it's all racism, racists aren't stupid and they're a lot more likely to vote for a black candidate who won't push pro-black policy than they are for a white candidate who will.
Nazgul_Hunter
Member
I've been thinking about the Trump margins on Hispanics, AAs and Asians. I need to see more data, but I think what ended up happening is that he performed about equal as a generic Republican; but Hillary's weak turnout, especially with young people made the exit polls look like they do.
Not going to WI, and neglecting MI and PA are historical blunders. I really want to know what happened that it didn't pop in anyone's radar.
Not going to WI, and neglecting MI and PA are historical blunders. I really want to know what happened that it didn't pop in anyone's radar.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Those exit polls are clearly wrong, Cesare, come the fuck on. Hillary dominated in South Florida and gave a strong run in Arizona and won Nevada (with the Dems taking total control of the legislature and winning the Senate seat) and won Colorado easily.
It's one of the things that has me most despondent today. The last eight years might as well have never happened.
metalslimer
Member
With a hard repeal of Obamacare I will lose my health insurance too. I can't believe after all the battling we did for 8 years, his accomplishments will be wiped out.
balladofwindfishes
Member
This part of the law is extremely popular and most companies have fully adopted it into all of their policies.
He is truly the best. I will forever admire that man and his wife.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
The Clinton name is itself a label for Republicans.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
From Twitter:
The only thing positive about today is that Israel will become more liberal after American Jews flee.
..... This is sad, dark humor, but maybe accurate I guess.
The only thing positive about today is that Israel will become more liberal after American Jews flee.
..... This is sad, dark humor, but maybe accurate I guess.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I can't be the only person who is still drinking
RustyNails
Member
I dont think so. I mean the standard labels like socialist, commie, etc. In 2008 Obama was on the defensive for saying he would like to redistribute some wealth, alluding to socialism. Something like that wouldn't have even registered on the richter scale of 2016 election.
The one silver lining is that the Democratic party has an opportunity to completely rebuild from the bottom up. Kick out any real or perceived corruption from the DNC, try to run candidates that connect to their communities at the state level, and ultimately learn from this loss and revitalize the progressive movement in this country.
My biggest concern is climate change. It is up to Elon Musk to keep pushing forward against all odds and it is up to grassroots organizers to keep lobbying lawmakers to take climate change seriously. Whether that means lobbying Paul Ryan to pass true free market reforms or just focusing on local governments and making incremental reforms, we CANNOT give up EVER on this issue.
My biggest concern is climate change. It is up to Elon Musk to keep pushing forward against all odds and it is up to grassroots organizers to keep lobbying lawmakers to take climate change seriously. Whether that means lobbying Paul Ryan to pass true free market reforms or just focusing on local governments and making incremental reforms, we CANNOT give up EVER on this issue.
Poodlestrike
Banned
plagiarize
Banned
Yeah. I guess we're back to just having to cross our fingers really hard that no one gets sick and loses their job.
I mean obviously I hope neither of those things happen to anyone, but it was really nice not to have to worry about that for a while.
I mean obviously I hope neither of those things happen to anyone, but it was really nice not to have to worry about that for a while.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I stopped drinking when I puked last night. Too much liquid in my stomach I suppose. Hung over, only got 4 hours of sleep last night. I'm far too sad to drink at this point.
My health insurance is gone. I had just gotten my toe fixed. It felt good having a safety net. Now thats gone.
100 day plans yall.
I bet America is going to be strong, so strong, so very strong and it's very good.
Bill Clinton supposedly detected the white voter problem but was ignored by the data team
And_Gignac
Member
I think it was evident like since October that Bernie was energizing the white working class base. It was also evident that the communist and socialist attacks didn't stick and didn't hurt his chances with rural whites in Iowa, for instance.
This is also Bernie's fault for not doing more to connect with minorities during the primary. This is also the DNC fault for giving all the facilities of the machinery to Clinton.
I just hope the DNC gets purged of Clintons and their allies. The David Brock, Peter Daou, Correct the Record and all that vermin need to go away.
This is also Bernie's fault for not doing more to connect with minorities during the primary. This is also the DNC fault for giving all the facilities of the machinery to Clinton.
I just hope the DNC gets purged of Clintons and their allies. The David Brock, Peter Daou, Correct the Record and all that vermin need to go away.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Day one of the legislative session
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Paul Ryan is insane
Like, Paul Ryan is completely disconnected from reality.
Paul Ryan was literally the only person in Congress in 2005 pushing to privatize Social Security.
(Also, his plan was funny in that it would accidentally turn the U.S. into a Communist nation by having workers control 98% of the stock market.)
Good Job Bob
Member
LOL
It's a first-hundred-days promise. Republicans hold the house and senate. How could it possibly not be repealed?
metalslimer
Member
Really? It's the biggest thing republicans have ran on for years and there is nothing to stop them. It might not get completely repealed, but it will be dismantled
balladofwindfishes
Member
I'm not even sure how it could be
It's technically impossible to hard repeal the law. It would have to be dismantled slowly with a solid plan, and I don't think the GOP has a plan to do that
Poodlestrike
Banned
It's possible, I guess. People hate Obamacare in the abstract, but tend to dig most of its specific provisions. They've been using it as a football for so long they may keep it around so they can kick it some more, but... there's also the premiums to consider. Idk.
Literally something I was thinking, lol.
I'm Jewish, and I think I have the family history stuff to prove it, so going to Israel and then trying to influence politics there feels like a real option to me.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Feingold was painted as washington and technocratic fixes. He didn't get dems out.
Stop trying to win people over. Win their vote. Get them excited
sazzy
Member
I honestly do not think that will happen. They're not going to strip 20 million Americans of health insurance.
They're going to have to work around that part ^
I was going to make this exact point regarding the share of minority votes. It's what I think too. He didn't gain support so much as Hillary lost it.
Says who?
Attacking Bernie as a communist wouldn't matter, because the Dems lost due to turnout which was because they disliked Hillary. Unless you think that Dems would abandon Bernie bc of socialism, that doesn't hold up. What matters is how depressed minority turnout would be for him compared to Hillary and whether he would keep a hold of the Rust Belt, which I think by virtue of being a white man railing about jobs he probably would've done a better job at.
So the republican smear machine decides who's on the democratic party? Scary thought.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Just because they didn't need the standard labels for Clinton (again the Clinton name alone is arguably a bad enough label) doesn't mean they wouldn't have used them against Sanders. Socialism/Communism are right around atheism in terms of American hostility and that's not going to just disappear.
Got the Shakes
Member
If I were a betting man, I'd bet the farm that it does get repealed. Not only does Trump want it to happen, but don't forget how many years and the 40+ votes Republicans spent to repeal it with Obama in office. They are going to repeal it, and my guess is they are going to do it with giant smiles on their faces.
VendettaRed07
Member
It is getting repealed 100% and they will pass something else. It might even be more popular, who the fuck knows.
A Serious Man
Member
It's the only thing I'm certain they will do.
They'll simply strike the pre-existing conditions part to "keep out opportunists" and "keep premiums low".
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
There was early voting in WI. I cast mine early
If it turns out that they didn't count the votes in a timely fashion I'm going to be pissed
Well, to be fair and this is me trying to be hopeful in the face of huge uncertainty. The ACA was indeed a republican idea so it isn't out of the realm of possibility that they repeal it only to pass their own version that is very similar.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I don't think you're wrong necessarily but why did Feingold do even worse then?
VendettaRed07
Member
Where else was there to even lose?
plagiarize
Banned
A real thought I had last night.
It's a shame Elon Musk wasn't born in America. If we have an equivalent to Trump on the left, it's Elon.
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