Support NeoGAF

[kirblar]

You genuinely don't get it, do you? What you think of the Democratic Base - the liberal middle classes - did turn up. They're not the missing votes in Wisconsin and Michigan. And if you think George Clooney is the man to bring those votes back? Another metropolitan elite?

Man, this is just sad.

ITS NOT ABOUT ELITES

Trump is an "ELITE". It didn't matter.

Sanders is a 30+ year Washington Insider. It didn't matter.

As long as the person is "new to you", that's all that matters to people.

 

[Joeytj]

Great, so we are just going to run McGovern against Goldwater and see who wins?

I swear to god the Dems are the dumbest bunch of idiots. We lost because we didn't run an economic message that resounded with the middle of America. Breaking up banks and socialism are also not things these people want to hear.

Yeah. Right now, I'm trying hard not to anger Bernie supporters, but Bernie's message against Wall Street and for Democratic Socialism, isn't exactly what brought out Trump supporters. Bernie was right that the "rigged system" message was going to be the winning one, but he shouldn't bet that's all there is to Trump's victory.

 

[B-Dubs]

You genuinely don't get it, do you? What you think of the Democratic Base - the liberal middle classes - did turn up. They're not the missing votes in Wisconsin and Michigan. And if you think George Clooney is the man to bring those votes back? Another metropolitan elite?

Man, this is just sad.

Those voters have only ever showed up when we ran the most charismatic motherfucker in the room. Look at the last 30 years, they don't care about policy. They don't. I know that don't fit in your world view, but it's true.

Fuck, Trump is the goddamned definition of metropolitan elite! That's who he has been for his entire life!

ITS NOT ABOUT ELITES

Trump is an "ELITE". It didn't matter.

Sanders is a 30+ year Washington Insider. It didn't matter.

As long as the person is "new to you", that's all that matters to people.

Yup. All that matters is the shiny.

 

[excelsiorlef]

He actively denounces Trump's racism and his appeal to racist tendencies. He has throughout the entire primary season and the general election. He actively told his supporters not to vote for Trump and to support Hillary. He ain't the one with an issue here.

He denounces racism the way he denounced the horrible harassment Barbara Boxer experienced at the Nevada caucus: in a single sentence wrapped up in excuses as to why it's not the actual issue at hand.

 

[sazzy]

Those voters have only ever showed up when we ran the most charismatic motherfucker in the room. Look at the last 30 years, they don't care about policy. They don't. I know that don't fit in your world view, but it's true.



Yup. All that matters is the shiny.

This is why people line up iphones every year.

Tell you what, there should be pres election every year with voting booths at apple stores along with a new iphone launch.

100% turnout.

 

[Joeytj]

Also, I get the feeling the next Dem presidential candidate will come out of California.

Nixon and Reagan both conquered Republican and national politics after coming out of California, when it was a sort-of Republican bastion during a Democratic era in the nation.

California is one of the few remaining places in the country with a good talent pool of both progressive and appealing candidates for the future, from Kamala Harris to Hispanic politicians and even non-politicians.

I really don't like Gavin Newsom though... As much as a progressive as he seems to be.

 

[ctothej]

Yeah.

This is definitely true. Everybody wants to destroy the Democratic Party right now.

1% in three states would have changed the election.

Without the concerted effort of multiple state actors, Hillary would be president right now.

I am not surprised that white liberals now want to jettison the rights of people of color for electoral success. But I won't support it.

It's sickening. And even if we're throwing ethics out the window, I think it's a shitty electoral strategy.

 

[nature boy]

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

ITS NOT ABOUT ELITES

Trump is an "ELITE". It didn't matter.

Sanders is a 30+ year Washington Insider. It didn't matter.

As long as the person is "new to you", that's all that matters to people.

There is definitely a big matter of perception and I think it's likely that the elitism had more to do with legacies in politics where these people don't have a high opinion of the political state. Clinton is another career politician in a system they don't think works. Trump is a poison pill that might destroy the system, but that's okay because they don't believe in the system as it is in the first place.

Either way, it's certainly not about a single thing, like elites vs not elites.

 

[Revolver]

Thinking about a potential contender from the bench. What about Gavin Newsom? I don't know a lot about him but from his DNC speech he seemed charismatic and photogenic as hell.

 

[B-Dubs]

Also, I get the feeling the next Dem presidential candidate will come out of California.

Nixon and Reagan both conquered Republican and national politics after coming out of California, when it was a sort-of Republican bastion during a Democratic era in the nation.

California is one of the few remaining places in the country with a good talent pool of both progressive and appealing candidates for the future, from Kamala Harris to Hispanic politicians and even non-politicians.

I really don't like Gavin Newsom though... As much as a progressive as he seems to be.

George Clooney for Congress!

Fuck it, if we're going to go for the shiny we may as well make sure the person is halfway decent and gives half a crap.

 

[Kid Heart]

I honestly agree that we should try running a celebrity of Clooney-status in the primary. The internet and social media have irrevocably changed culture and politics. It seems to be a popularity contest now more than anything else. Let's try leaning into it in the primary and see if it's true or not.

No, I think undoubtedly Charisma is a necessity for our candidates moving forward, but getting celebrities on board isn't the answer. Trump could at least pretend he was prepared to handle economic issues with his business experiences, but I don't think enough Democrats will buy Clooney is prepared to handle the presidency with his acting experience alone. Even Reagan had prior governing experience before he was elected.

On an unrelated note, can I also just say that while I will take my share of the blame for being wrong and blinded to what the people wanted, there isn't just one sole factor at work here that caused this loss. I see a lot of people trying to pass their share of the blame onto everyone else and it kind of infuriates me a bit that people wont take the time to do some introspection and help try to fix it. This extends to everyone across aisle no matter what side you did/(or didn't) pick.

 

[ShironRedshift]

Great, so we are just going to run McGovern against Goldwater and see who wins?

I swear to god the Dems are the dumbest bunch of idiots. We lost because we didn't run an economic message that resounded with the middle of America. Breaking up banks and socialism are also not things these people want to hear.

Fuck it. Just give him the 2020 primary, let him run unopposed or whatever so people can get it out of their system and let Trump crush him with hammers and sickles and messages of how he wants to give black people handouts with his socialist ideas and myth of welfare queens while also heavily, heavily homing in on how he wants to raise taxes on the middle class (something that's destroyed Democratic candidates in the past and thus something they had to abandon with Bill Clinton, and thus something that people should be VERY, VERY concerned over now that we know the blue wall is far from invincible!) and get destroyed so people have to confront once and for all that these people are racist fucks who don't give a fuck about any of that, even if it's in their best interest, if they have to share it with a person with a bit too much melanin in their skin and would rather kill themselves to bring "the other" down than do anything that benefits them both.

Of course, even in this circumstance, based on the state of Labour in UK and Jeremy Corbyn they'll still learn nothing and just retreat further into their stupid little worlds... Idiots...

Just fuck all of this. I have no hope for 2020. Bernie's clearly going to make a huge push and try again based on what we're seeing from him already, he'll take the Primary, and Trump will crush him easily. There were many warning signs for Clinton, and those shouldn't have been ignored like they were, but there are also many warning signs for Sanders and if it's the case that Clinton shouldn't have ignored her warning signs and worrying attributes, then well... This is so dumb.

 

[neurosisxeno]

George Clooney for Congress!

Fuck it, if we're going to go for the shiny we may as well make sure the person is halfway decent and gives half a crap.

Kanye West of course.

 

[thehypocrite]

What on Earth do you want that adds value to the base of the party. What does that mean? Should I go through the list of policies that she was wanting to do?

Ensure Roe v Wade is held (via SCOTUS appointment), mental health policies, renewable energy policies, college tuition policies, drug use policies, crime/BLM policies, LGBTQ policies, equal pay policies. Oh, and she was willing to help fund NASA. Oh, and she believed Climate Change was real.

I cannot understand how you can claim this as nothing. Especially not against a Trump/Pence ticket that favours gay conversion therapy and rape victims with child have to carry their attackers child to term (or abort and hold a funeral for it).

Words just fail me.

Tell all of that to the rust belt and tell me what they think about that. Have you even seen these communities? None of what you have wrote there resonates with them.

She didn't do anything to you. She extended an olive branch to Sanders and gave him concessions. Allowing protest at the DNC, branches were extended again and again and all Hillary got was the perpetuation of the 'rigged' narrative and "both of them are equally bad".

If that crowd was actually so ardent about progressive ideals, they should have voted for a future from which those progressive ideals could be planted and nurtured. You speak of an echo chamber, but are the Sanders supporters not ensconcing themselves in one to talk about how shitty Hillary's campaign tshirts were? Because that was what was important?

And what good is the VP spot? The idea that it should have been conceded to Sanders is incredibly stupid, largely because he would be more effective in the Senate, where you would want him possibly chairing committees!

In the end they didn't actually care about progressive ideals, they cared about their moral purity. They never WANTED to vote for Democrats, all of them went re-registering as independents after they finished sitting as DNC delegates. You want to villify Hillary because it is easy to blame her, but this woman ran a campaign about inclusion. Her campaign cooperated behind the scenes with Sanders campaign demands, on the platform, on getting DWS removed, on more debates. These overtures were not returned until a month after she sealed the deal. And even then the busters were Never Hillary. They were the ones who made the election about her, for them, rather than about policy.

Her campaign was not about her. The campaign shat out a book on policy. The videos on her youtube channel released over the duration of the campaign were video stories of the people who benefited from policies and legislation that Hillary helped pass. The focus has been on those people. Just not the people that you wanted focus on or the policies that you wanted focus on.

The media circus ended up fixating on the candidates in the campaign regardless of what policies Hillary wanted to talk about instead. That is outside her campaign's control.

The Sanders supporters screamed a lot too, and they were worse than ardent Hillary supporters because they allowed sexism and racism to fester within their ranks. So there is no high ground there.

Keep excusing Clinton, I told gaf many times that Clinton was an old politician, not because of her age but because of her baggage and perceptions, none of you wanted to listen. Keep fucking that chicken and run her again in 2020.

Here in Michigan a lot of the voters said that they would have voted for Sanders, but to them Hillary was not worthy of their vote. Trust me, I pleaded and try to respectfully reason why them about the topic, I talked to them with respect about their issues, told them that even though I personally disagree with X, I don't think that merits the restriction of X for eveyone, that people do have their rights and should be respected. They are regular people with concerns about student dept, rent, work, and the fear of their communities being left out. Hillary went and proved them right by not even visiting Wisconsin and sending surrogates to Michigan.
GG.

If they were as rabid as Trump supporters, Bernie would have won the Primary..simple as that.



Yep, this is so damning. I even remember posting during the convention that weren't spending enough time on issues that affect the rustbelt, Brooklyn issues are not Ohio suburbs issues.

Not really, the truth is Sanders never had chance of winning the primaries, since as early as 2008 the DNC elites and Obama had already selected Clinton.

Did you vote?

I'm not elegible to vote, I did pleaded with everyone to go vote and vote for her. I wanted the DNC to win but the DNC wanted Clinton above victory.

 

[pigeon]

You genuinely don't get it, do you? What you think of the Democratic Base - the liberal middle classes - did turn up. They're not the missing votes in Wisconsin and Michigan. And if you think George Clooney is the man to bring those votes back? Another metropolitan elite?

Man, this is just sad.

If this is your contribution, why are you posting?

 

[kirblar]

The Dems CANNOT run legacy candidates ever again.

Every time they win, it's with a fresh face new to the scene, untarred by GOP propaganda.

Here in Michigan a lot of the voters said that they would have voted for Sanders, but to them Hillary was not worthy of their vote. Trust me, I pleaded and try to respectfully reason why them about the topic, I talked to them with respect about their issues, told them that even though I personally disagree with X, I don't think that merits the restriction of X for eveyone, that people do have their rights and should be respected. They are regular people with concerns about student dept, rent, work, and the fear of their communities being left out. Hillary went and proved them wrong by not even visiting Wisconsin and sending surrogates to Michigan.

Yup. The Bernie Bros stayed home. The difference is that I don't think those people were winnable after what happened to Clinton. She wouldn't have been believed.

 

[Angry Fork]

He denounces racism the way he denounced the horrible harassment Barbara Boxer experienced at the Nevada caucus: in a single sentence wrapped up in excused as to why it's not the actual issue at hand.

And he said shit like that the entire time. But Bernie is a closet racist guys!!! rofl

The only silver lining in all this is there's a decent chance the red baiters and center-right elite's will be completely marginalized/purged in the dem party.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

@Nate_Cohn 1m1 minute ago Manhattan, NY
Dems need to grapple with the fact that they lost this election because voters who supported Obama in 2012 voted Trump.

WAIT FOR GOD NATE GUYS

 

[Leninpest]

Here in Michigan a lot of the voters said that they would have voted for Sanders, but to them Hillary was not worthy of their vote. Trust me, I pleaded and try to respectfully reason why them about the topic, I talked to them with respect about their issues, told them that even though I personally disagree with X, I don't think that merits the restriction of X for eveyone, that people do have their rights and should be respected. They are regular people with concerns about student dept, rent, work, and the fear of their communities being left out. Hillary went and proved them right by not even visiting Wisconsin and sending surrogates to Michigan.
GG.

Yup. I'm in Iowa and there are still Bernie signs up.

 

[kirblar]

And he said shit like that the entire time. But Bernie is a closet racist guys!!! rofl

The only silver lining in all this is there's a decent chance the red baiters and center-right elite's will be completely marginalized/purged in the dem party.

His "It's about economics, not race" (straight out of the white socialist jacobinmag manifesto) means that he has no actual concept of what drives it and how to deal with it.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Those voters have only ever showed up when we ran the most charismatic motherfucker in the room.

Isn't that the same for the GOP? Dole, McCain, Romney, they all lost and had no personality or charisma

Reagan, W, Trump, they all won and were personable and able to connect to voters, despite all three being elites.

That only leaves HW, but he rode in on Reagan's coattails (and a poor dem candidate) and as soon as an actual, charismatic competition came in, he lost badly. He's the only one in 30 years to win without having a large amount of charisma and appealing the masses. And then he got crushed by Bill.

Or even the Dems. Gore, Kerry, Hillary. What is the common trait between the three? All three aren't great speakers and aren't that charismatic. Bill and Obama? Smooth operators who know how to connect to people.

We seriously underestimate (every single presidential election, both parties) how important being able to connect with the people and being a good speaker is for the president.

 

[thehypocrite]

And he said shit like that the entire time. But Bernie is a closet racist guys!!! rofl

The only silver lining in all this is there's a decent chance the red baiters and center-right elite's will be completely marginalized/purged in the dem party.

Nah, he only cares about class issues, a one trick pony / s

 

[Officerrob]

And he said shit like that the entire time. But Bernie is a closet racist guys!!! rofl

The only silver lining in all this is there's a decent chance the red baiters and center-right elite's will be completely marginalized/purged in the dem party.

People didn't say Bernie is a racist, people said Bernie's message didn't resonate with minorities. This is not an opinion, this is a fact, voting backs this up.

Nah, he only cares about class issues, a one trick pony / s

And crap like this proves that many of his supporters still fail to understand that

 

[B-Dubs]

No, I think undoubtedly Charisma is a necessity for our candidates moving forward, but getting celebrities on board isn't the answer. Trump could at least pretend he was prepared to handle economic issues with his business experiences, but I don't think enough Democrats will buy Clooney is prepared to handle the presidency with his acting experience alone.Even Reagan had prior governing experience before he was elected.

I picked Clooney, half in jest, because he's always had an activist streak. He's from California and there's a midterm coming up, it wouldn't take much for him to win a seat in the House. Fuck me, Arnold went from actor to governor out there and he didn't have half of Clooney's resume doing good.

My larger point is we need to find the most charismatic motherfucker in all of existence if we're going to beat Trump.

 

[NihonTiger90]

The Dems CANNOT run legacy candidates ever again.

Every time they win, it's with a fresh face new to the scene, untarred by GOP propaganda.

Yup. The Bernie Bros stayed home. The difference is that I don't think those people were winnable after what happened to Clinton. She wouldn't have been believed.

My father --- a Republical who ultimately voted Trump -- told me that had it been anyone but Clinton, he would have voted Dem.

He lives in Michigan.

 

[thehypocrite]

Yup. I'm in Iowa and there are still Bernie signs up.

Likewise in MI.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Also, I get the feeling the next Dem presidential candidate will come out of California.

Nixon and Reagan both conquered Republican and national politics after coming out of California, when it was a sort-of Republican bastion during a Democratic era in the nation.

California is one of the few remaining places in the country with a good talent pool of both progressive and appealing candidates for the future, from Kamala Harris to Hispanic politicians and even non-politicians.

I really don't like Gavin Newsom though... As much as a progressive as he seems to be.

We also have Garcetti in LA, who just won decisive mandates. Most of the local measures he supported all passed with overwhelming numbers.

 

[tuffy]

George Clooney for Congress!

Fuck it, if we're going to go for the shiny we may as well make sure the person is halfway decent and gives half a crap.

I keep trying to think of downsides and nothing springs to mind. He seems reasonably intelligent, he's got a lot of name recognition already, he's supportive of the party platform, and he doesn't have a lot of baggage as a longtime politician. If he could give a good speech and hold his own in a debate, that might just be enough.

 

[pigeon]

And he said shit like that the entire time. But Bernie is a closet racist guys!!! rofl

I'm glad to see Bernie make comments like that. His recommendation of Keith Ellison is also a good sign.

That doesn't mean I'm going to let him off the hook when he normalizes white nationalism.

 

[whyamihere]

This is something we're going to have to deal with, in Florida especially:

@Nate_Cohn
Dems need to grapple with the fact that they lost this election because voters who supported Obama in 2012 voted Trump.

@Nate_Cohn
Turnout can always be better. But turnout in FL/PA was very strong--higher than '12--and Clinton lost because Obama voters flipped.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Not really, the truth is Sanders never had chance of winning the primaries, since as early as 2008 the DNC elites and Obama had already selected Clinton.

And? Obama still won 2008 and the Democratic establishment was behind HIlary, morose than in 2015-16.

Stop blaming the DNC when Bernie lost fair and square.

 

[kirblar]

This is something we're going to have to deal with, in Florida especially:

Everyone who was worried about Bernie Bros was right.

When they break it down, it's going to be losing white males.

 

[faisal233]

HillGAF really wants the narrative to be principled candidate defeated by racists. Because anything else would be admitting Clinton's faults.

Yes the racist vote was there in 2016. It was also there in 2012 and 2008. There is no new racist vote in the rust belt. It's the same old GOP base. It's telling that Trump came -1 million under Romney and still won. Clinton just gave up and wanted to run up the score in NC and FL.

Let's now create a strawman that reaching back out to our WWC base in the rust belt will mean abandoning racial equality. That way we can take smug comfort in losing with a terrible campaign.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

This is something we're going to have to deal with, in Florida especially:

The non-racist WWC who thought Clinton was elitist and in wall street's pocket.

 

[Barzul]

Trump looked shook in that press scene with Ryan. Like he looks legit uncomfortable. I think it's setting in. He got what he wanted and now he's found out just how immense the scope of the job is.

 

[Leninpest]

And? Obama still won 2008 and the Democratic establishment was behind HIlary, morose than in 2015-16.

Stop blaming the DNC when Bernie lost fair and square.

That statement isn't true. Obama had a lot of democratic support, most notably from Ted Kennedy (pretty big name guy). In 2016 Hillary had a large chunk of the super delegates swung out of the gate and actively pressured those who weren't behind her. A perception of inevitability is a pretty big thing to get over.

 

[Diablos]

He looked like he was angry with Obama. It's disgusting. He can't just shake his hand and smile somewhat for that photo in the Oval Office.

 

[B-Dubs]

That statement isn't true. Obama had a lot of democratic support, most notably from Ted Kennedy (pretty big name guy). In 2016 Hillary had a large chunk of the super delegates swung out of the gate and actively pressured those who weren't behind her. A perception of inevitability is a pretty big thing to get over.

Ted Kennedy didn't throw his arms around Obama until he had already started winning. You're getting your timeline wrong.

 

[excelsiorlef]

And he said shit like that the entire time. But Bernie is a closet racist guys!!! rofl

The only silver lining in all this is there's a decent chance the red baiters and center-right elite's will be completely marginalized/purged in the dem party.

Never said he was racist....

That sentence btw still ignores reality Trump's already done all those things, he fucking campaigned on all those things.

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

And? Obama still won 2008 and the Democratic establishment was behind HIlary, morose than in 2015-16.

Stop blaming the DNC when Bernie lost fair and square.

So we're already back to pretending that the primary process always selects the best candidate for the GE?

 

[Maxim726X]

This is something we're going to have to deal with, in Florida especially:

Now that's scary.

Good luck rationalizing that one.

 

[Future Foundation]

HillGAF really wants the narrative to be principled candidate defeated by racists. Because anything else would be admitting Clinton's faults.

Yes the racist vote was there in 2016. It was also there in 2012 and 2008. There is no new racist vote. It's the same old GOP base. It's telling that Trump came -1 million under Romney and still won.

Let's now create a strawman that reaching back out to our WWC base in the rust belt will mean abandoning racial equality. That way we can take smug comfort in losing with a terrible campaign.

It sounds a hell of a lot like what you're doing right now, and judging by the threads on GAF in the last day or so, appears to be the default.

 

[Leninpest]

The non-racist WWC who thought Clinton was elitist and in wall street's pocket.

This is an actual thing that people in this thread are pretending isn't real.

 

[Wilsongt]

Our next AG, ladies and gentlemen.

The former New York mayor was on Fox & Friends on Thursday morning, where he was asked to react to protesting students and the colleges that have offered them measures to help deal with the disappointment. After joking that that wasn’t the treatment he would’ve gotten at Manhattan College, Giuliani said the truth of them matter is that these student protesters “are a bunch of spoiled crybabies.”

Giuliani went on to say he doubts that most students are actually against Trump, and that there’s a swelling of conservative students challenging liberal professors and “the real left-wing loonies on the campus.” He stated that Trump has appealed to more students than people give him credit for, though Giuliani suggested that Trump might want to ask younger dissenters to step back and re-evaluate him.

 

[Officerrob]

That statement isn't true. Obama had a lot of democratic support, most notably from Ted Kennedy (pretty big name guy). In 2016 Hillary had a large chunk of the super delegates swung out of the gate and actively pressured those who weren't behind her. A perception of inevitability is a pretty big thing to get over.

Ted Kennedy was late to the party, after South Carolina, where the Obama momentum was already moving VERY quickly

 

[Sibylus]

Trump looked shook in that press scene with Ryan. Like he looks legit uncomfortable. I think it's setting in. He got what he wanted and now he's found out just how immense the scope of the job is.

Fitting. When he should be most exultant and arrogant, he's shitting himself with the weight of the world on him.

 

[ShironRedshift]

The Dems CANNOT run legacy candidates ever again.

Every time they win, it's with a fresh face new to the scene, untarred by GOP propaganda.

Yup. The Bernie Bros stayed home. The difference is that I don't think those people were winnable after what happened to Clinton. She wouldn't have been believed.

Indeed. They definitely do. Problem is I don't think Sanders himself realizes this and if he decides to mount up another run, there's nothing anyone can do to stop him and I don't think anyone like Clinton or Obama will be able to convince him to not give it another go either (and wouldn't, especially in the case of Clinton because that would just look like sheer hypocrisy coming from her and that wouldn't exactly be wrong). If he runs, we're fucked. Flat out.

Trying to raise taxes on middle class is something that didn't work out in the past and Democratic candidates have had to wholly abandon. Bernie's plans don't even add up with those tax increases; there's no way he can ditch them. And now that we know how fragile the blue wall is, if he runs again with those same policies the writing is on the wall.

And it's so easy for Trump to just do all kinds of shit with Sanders as well, like tying him to Clinton with how hard he stumped for and pushed for her, ruining his "outsider" and "anti-establishment look" on top of the middle class taxes stuff. He's a dead man walking, so I certainly hope he's able to come to terms with that and doesn't do anything stupid in four years, but what he's already saying and the way his base is hyping him up again already are very worrying signs.

 

[kevin1025]

Trump looked shook in that press scene with Ryan. Like he looks legit uncomfortable. I think it's setting in. He got what he wanted and now he's found out just how immense the scope of the job is.

He'll soon start sporting that blank stare people get when they don't understand something, where information doesn't set in and he just stares blankly forward, and carry it for the next four years.

 

[Donthizz#]

In fighting is not going to help anybody. Dems will look like the UK Labour Party if they don't get their shit together