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[B-Dubs]

I genuinely don't know what you guys are talking about. She DID hammer Trump's economic policies. She DID hammer what a trade war would mean. She DID hammer him on his record of failed and cheated businesses. And she did talk up her own, positive policy visions.

But nobody remembered or cared. The media didn't cover her positive policy speeches (see: that handy graph of email coverage vs. policy coverage), and any policy arguments she made in the debate were vastly outweighed by coverage of Trump saying he wouldn't accept election results or Trump denying he sexually assaulted anyone. All the outrageous shit is what lived in the news cycle. How does Hillary break through that?

She doesn't. She wasn't shiny enough. That's what it all comes down to. All is secondary to things that are shiny and chrome.

 

[ShironRedshift]

Uh, I don't know guys, "if Clinton talked more about policy this would have been avoided"?

Yeah, kind of a weird thing to talk about if she should have talked about specific matters of policy like how Trump's stuff would affect middle-class individuals or whatever since a huge problem there is that the only chance Clinton had to talk about policy was the debates, and even there just barely. The media didn't give the slightest fuck about any policy she had and it was all drowned out by e-mails, e-mails, e-mails. Talking about some other policy or another wouldn't have mattered because that too would have been drowned out by e-mails and Clinton wouldn't have been able to make that pitch. She flat-out was not allowed to talk about policy. Granted, part of that was definitely on her for handling it terribly, but even if she handled it better, I can't see the media actually letting her off the hook and talking about that stuff regardless especially when they quickly ran to other made up stuff every chance they got too like the Iran money nonsense.

She might have had a bad pitch, but in the end, it really didn't matter what her pitch or approach was at all. It would have been drowned out by e-mails and the FBI and Comey and Benghazi and "Iran Hostage Money" and whatever else regardless so it's not very relevant in her particular case.

 

[Maxim726X]

I mean if we were only that lucky, it was e-mails after e-mails as well...

And a lot of making e-mails out to to be equivalent to Trump's actual scandals....

Again- No one gives a fuck about policy.

They would gladly talk about policy if it got the ratings that these scandals did. That clearly wasn't the case. Scandals get eyes... Even fabricated ones.

 

[Barzul]

@intlspectator
BREAKING: Members of Trump campaign told Middle Eastern officials to ignore 'campaign rhetoric' and that actual policy will be 'different'


I've never heard of the international spectator. Are they legit?

 

[thehypocrite]

Agreed there.

Though that might have actually hurt Sanders... just FYI.

If the argument is that not enough people knew him.

If it did then that would have been OK too and maybe Hillary would have been better for it if she had to fight for those voters that feel neglected by their perception of her. The goal is to win elections.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't want to harp on Sanders supporters anymore but I think it's quite ridiculous that over the past two days, they've been saying that Hillary's fault was not appealing to WWC, and that we should've given Bernie a chance, but none of them are acknowledging Sanders failure to attract the minority vote during primaries. His lacking efforts toward southern states and the amount of shit BLM got from his supporters for asking him to say anything about their movement were strong points of contention that were known.

The underlying argument was they would have fallen in line because what choice do they have....

But we don't have to....

It's discomforting and it worries me about the direction of the American progressive movement

 

[Paches]

@intlspectator
BREAKING: Members of Trump campaign told Middle Eastern officials to ignore 'campaign rhetoric' and that actual policy will be 'different'


I've never heard of the international spectator. Are they legit?

Iran deal intact?

 

[B-Dubs]

@intlspectator
BREAKING: Members of Trump campaign told Middle Eastern officials to ignore 'campaign rhetoric' and that actual policy will be 'different'


I've never heard of the international spectator. Are they legit?

Apparently it's an Italian Journal of International Affairs, so I'm going to say no.

 

[Crocodile]

A) I agree in hindsight that focusing more on how shitty is record is for the working class would have been better. They did address but the bulk of their message was their deplorableness. That's enough for any PoC and white liberals but I guess not all the other white people.

B) I totally understand preferring Sanders vs. Clinton. However he lost in a fair primary. If you or someone you know believed in Sanders message and thought not voting for Clinton was the right thing to do in the GE given what was at take that person is stupid. You denied Sanders a sweet Senate position and the only president that would have helped push his agenda. Also why is it fair to call out Clinton's mistakes (and it is) but with Sanders its always "the DNC screwed him" or "Black people just didn't know him" or whatever? If you are doing hot takes, it should be of everybody, your top choice doesn't get to skirt free

Anyway, this thread is a weird mix of pessimism and optimism. After I finish my PhD, I feel like this election has made me feel I should delve more into politics. At the same time, I'm more of a Clinton than an Obama in terms of the charisma - knowledge scale so maybe not? That said, I already teach and I would be doing more after graduation so my oral skills are always improving. I dunno, I'm going to be doing a lot of thinking in the next few years. I just hope things don't go belly up

 

[Maxim726X]

Iran deal intact?

Zero chance.

He would get crucified by his own party. The Iran deal is dead.

 

[newshinycd]

I don't think he has the mental capacity to process all the information a president has to process.

It's likely frying his brain, he doesn't know how to handle it. This is the hardest job of his life. He can't just go bankrupt, wash his hands, and forget about it. There's no giving up. He'll be held accountable by the entire country. He'll have to make decisions he doesn't like, meet people he doesn't like, and do things he doesn't want to do. He needs to remember foreign names that are hard to remember. He has to sit down and figure out plans. He needs to balance being in meetings 24/7, with being in the public 24/7. He needs to cope with being watched 100% of the time. Every word he says being recorded. He needs to cope with handing his business over and being unable to even think about them for four years. He needs to realize that many of his private documents are now public record. He now can no longer freely post on Twitter, everything must be approved and recorded. He can only take vacations every so often, but he's always on call. People will criticize his vacations. Everyone will know where and when he will be at all hours of every day for 4 years. There will be times when he goes days without sleeping, but is still expected to be sharp and focused 100% of the time. He'll eat food he won't like in countries he doesn't like. Every aspect of his finances will be audited by several different departments. And this is just the surface. Just wait for the first hurricane. The first terrorist attack. He can't sit at the side lines and whine about Obama doing a bad job. It will be HIS job now. And all eyes will be on him. Lives will be his personal responsibility.

He has NO idea what he's gotten himself into. The presidency isn't for the light hearted or weak willed. It's the hardest job in the country.

I'm thinking this is how the GOP finally cracks. Trump can't just quit because it will be forever known that the GOP put a literal failure in the White House.

 

[Kusagari]

Yeah for the record I think that's also BS because she got no air time for policy.

I'm referring purely to advertising. I live in a swing state every Hillary ad was just Trump saying sexist or racist shit. No reasoning for why you should actually vote for her.

At least Trump's ads promised change.

 

[SexyFish]

@intlspectator
BREAKING: Members of Trump campaign told Middle Eastern officials to ignore 'campaign rhetoric' and that actual policy will be 'different'


I've never heard of the international spectator. Are they legit?

Katy Tur was speaking earlier saying she was also hearing from many people close to Trump that he isn't like his rally rhetoric at all.

I highly doubt whatever he is is good, but I guess it is something?

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

But she decided his being deplorable was enough. And it was for me, and all of us. But we are the progressive end of the party who is horrified by that stuff.

I have been thinking about this all day, and I think this might be one of the root causes of her losing.

I don't know how to put this in words that don't get me flamed, but I think the "PC run amok" cries are more widespread and internalized than liberals think. Outrage culture, calling people out on Tumblr, triggering, etc. might be seen as a joke for most people.

Heck, I read today that universities are offering grief counseling to people, including therapy dogs and making arts and crafts; and I can't help myself to also be a bit off-put by it.

Again, I don't know how to say this artfully because my thoughts on this aren't full fledged, but I think Liberals have severely misread this, and pounce on un-PC language with such strength and outrage that we didn't realize people are very off put by it. And how not put off they were by Trump's language and demeanor.

----------

Separate thought. My biggest hope is that what someone said about Trump turns out true:

"His detractors take him literally but not seriously. His supporters take him seriously, but not literally"

 

[dramatis]

Keep excusing Clinton, I told gaf many times that Clinton was an old politician, not because of her age but because of her baggage and perceptions, none of you wanted to listen. Keep fucking that chicken and run her again in 2020.

Here in Michigan a lot of the voters said that they would have voted for Sanders, but to them Hillary was not worthy of their vote. Trust me, I pleaded and try to respectfully reason why them about the topic, I talked to them with respect about their issues, told them that even though I personally disagree with X, I don't think that merits the restriction of X for eveyone, that people do have their rights and should be respected. They are regular people with concerns about student dept, rent, work, and the fear of their communities being left out. Hillary went and proved them right by not even visiting Wisconsin and sending surrogates to Michigan.
GG.

Not really, the truth is Sanders never had chance of winning the primaries, since as early as 2008 the DNC elites and Obama had already selected Clinton.

I made no excuses. What I posted was the truth of what happened, as opposed to your perception of what happened—that Hillary offered Sanders and his supporters nothing. That somehow that guys actually wanted to vote for her, when at the bottom of this very response you made you repeat the 'rigged' narrative. You couldn't counter what I said about what Hillary's campaign ended up offering Sanders, because that actually happened! You couldn't counter what I said about the ruckus they made at the DNC and then still went Never Hillary, because that is also fact.

Your very own tale indicates how they clearly never wanted to vote for Hillary in the first place, which meant it was never about voting for policy or ideals or progressivism, and not even about communities and the American people. They never wanted to vote for Democrats, they wanted to keep their moral purity. What about your story has offered a counter to anything I posted?

The reason Sanders could not win the primaries was because he did not appeal to the Democratic base. No matter what you say, if he had been competent enough, he would have won more delegates and more votes than Hillary in the primary. Obama did it against Hillary in 2008, when people were also saying she was the handpicked candidate. Even if the DNC picks a candidate, they are unable to force the voters to pick her. Nobody can even draw a direct line to how the DNC managed to rig the primaries to actual voter choice. You just keep repeating the narrative so you can ignore democracy and delegitimize Hillary's primary win.

 

[kirblar]

Reading about these people (ones who voted Obama but switched), a lot of them say they don't think Trump is serious about the racial aspects, or that they disagree with that but agree with other shit, and that tolerating racist "rhetoric" (in their eyes) doesn't translate to actual action. They could be lying obviously and secretly like what he's saying about race, I don't know.

Honestly maybe you're right that this is giving them too much benefit of the doubt, but I don't know another way to think about it if we want a broad multi-racial lefty coalition. I 100% believe it's possible for this to exist without ever compromising on civil rights.

Any one of those people who says they do accept all of the shit trump says and defend white nationalism as a concept/idea in itself, they'll get no understanding from me ever. I understand you saying anyone who can compromise on civil rights isn't an ally, but I'm inclined to think some of these who are only thinking about economics right now can become one.

This is because they live in areas where minorities literally don't exist. This twitter thread just got RTed on my timeline and is exactly the problem - https://twitter.com/pwthornton/status/796355506759671808

 

[damisa]

I'm sorry to break it to you, but Obama had as much backing of the establishment back then as Clinton, Heck a lot of the party had pushed bill aside until Obama went and brought him back into the fold for his coalition.

Bernie was never given a chance. There was no reasoning with the Party, it was her turn and they were with her.

These kinds of posts are insulting to the majority of people, the many millions of voters who voted for Hillary. They were not tricked by the DNC. If Bernie was a better candidate he would have won, plain and simple. Stop making excuses.

 

[Maxim726X]

I'm referring purely to advertising. I live in a swing state every Hillary ad was just Trump saying sexist or racist shit. No reasoning for why you should actually vote for her.

At least Trump's ads promised change.

This is true. Nothing but attack ads against Trump.

 

[The Technomancer]

This is because they live in areas where minorities literally don't exist. This twitter thread just got RTed on my timeline and is exactly the problem -https://twitter.com/pwthornton/status/796355506759671808

Yeah I saw this thread too. Spot fucking on

I have to remember sometimes that growing up in my hometown of 90,000 people with a downtown that measures about five blocks by three is actually nothing like what nearly all of actual "small town" America is like

 

[Barzul]

Zero chance.

He would get crucified by his own party. The Iran deal is dead.

At the cost of nuclear Iran? Yikes. They can't strong arm Iran. It's impossible, they've built an economy that is independent of the US.

 

[thehypocrite]

I don't want to harp on Sanders supporters anymore but I think it's quite ridiculous that over the past two days, they've been saying that Hillary's fault was not appealing to WWC, and that we should've given Bernie a chance, but none of them are acknowledging Sanders failure to attract the minority vote during primaries. His lacking efforts toward southern states and the amount of shit BLM got from his supporters for asking him to say anything about their movement were strong points of contention that were known.



CNN just completely brushing aside how unprecedented Comey's last minute stunt was was embarassing.

I wish things were different, but those states aren't winnable for the Democrats.

 

[ShironRedshift]

I don't want to harp on Sanders supporters anymore but I think it's quite ridiculous that over the past two days, they've been saying that Hillary's fault was not appealing to WWC, and that we should've given Bernie a chance, but none of them are acknowledging Sanders failure to attract the minority vote during primaries. His lacking efforts toward southern states and the amount of shit BLM got from his supporters for asking him to say anything about their movement were strong points of contention that were known..

Like, yeah. The hypocrisy there is insane. Like, okay. Clinton clearly didn't do enough to appeal to WWC individuals and took them for granted, etc, and then ended up hurting her hard. Granted. But then if that's case, then Sanders definitely took minority voters for granted and was just like "they're reliable Clinton voters in the primary and they'll vote for me in the general, so why bother?". But that's the same mistake Clinton made! Assuming people would vote for her and so not bothering to fight for them, and then surprise surprise they don't turn out after all! Apparently that's not the type of thing you can just assume after all--that certain people are reliable voters and will just turn out regardless of if you push and fight for them or not. It's driving me insane.

 

[Doc Holliday]

A)

Anyway, this thread is a weird mix of pessimism and optimism. After I finish my PhD, I feel like this election has made me feel I should delve more into politics. At the same time, I'm more of a Clinton than an Obama in terms of the charisma - knowledge scale so maybe not? That said, I already teach and I would be doing more after graduation so my oral skills are always improving. I dunno, I'm going to be doing a lot of thinking in the next few years. I just hope things don't go belly up

I've decided to be more active politically, its NYC, but fuck it. I thought getting friends and family not in nyc to vote was being involved..it wasn't.

 

[HTupolev]

Zero chance.

He would get crucified by his own party. The Iran deal is dead.

I'm uncertain as to what ditching the Iran deal would actually look like, as my understanding is that the other countries that were involved wouldn't be very enthusiastic about resuming the blockade.

 

[Maxim726X]

At the cost of nuclear Iran? Yikes. They can't strong arm Iran. It's impossible, they've built an economy that is independent of the US.

Who knows what he'll actually implement, but there are few things as widely discussed on right wing radio than the dreaded Iran deal, which makes the country weak.

Plus, the Republicans have come out against it en masse. He can't risk pissing off the rabid supporters of his this early. It's gone.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

It's kind of cool the GOP appears to have a hard cap in turnout though. Turnout hasn't really gone up or down much since Bush. It's just been the Democrats dropping the ball every single loss because our turnout is all over the place.

 

[CygnusXS]

She doesn't. She wasn't shiny enough. That's what it all comes down to. All is secondary to things that are shiny and chrome.

Wow, Trump voters as War Boys is actually a phenomenal comparison.

 

[tuffy]

Who knows what he'll actually implement, but there are few things as widely discussed on right wing radio than the dreaded Iran deal, which makes the country weak.

Plus, the Republicans have come out against it en masse. He can't risk pissing off the rabid supporters of his this early. It's gone.

It's not like Trump actually cares about Republicans now that he's in office. At some point somebody in the executive branch is going to sit him down, draw a little diagram and show him how the Iran deal works. Then he'll quietly flip-flop on killing it.

 

[faisal233]

Zero chance.

He would get crucified by his own party. The Iran deal is dead.

You don't get it. Conservatives have no principle policy position except for gun control and abortion.

Everything is for sale to the cult of personality. Including their dignity.

 

[B-Dubs]

Wow, Trump voters as War Boys is actually a phenomenal comparison.

Just Trump voters? Nah, the whole damn country. Shiny and chrome is what gets you elected. Look at the last 40 years worth of elections. Outside of GW everyone is shiny and chrome.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Who knows what he'll actually implement, but there are few things as widely discussed on right wing radio than the dreaded Iran deal, which makes the country weak.

Plus, the Republicans have come out against it en masse. He can't risk pissing off the rabid supporters of his this early. It's gone.

The supporters are on his side, not the GOP. What he wants, they'll follow. This is something the GOP is going to have to learn.

His supporters love him. To them, he is the infallible Trump. He's their Obama. They hate establishment politicians. They hate congress. If Trump says yes, and they say no, they're on Trump's side. And they WILL primary them if they need to. The Tea Party has shown they can do this reliably and successfully.

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

This is because they live in areas where minorities literally don't exist. This twitter thread just got RTed on my timeline and is exactly the problem - https://twitter.com/pwthornton/status/796355506759671808

I think this attitude is the liberal problem though. Think of white rural voters as a minority themselves. Most liberals don't understand them, what makes them tic, what their worries are, or their thought processes. The elitism is real, and it's not about money, it's intellectual.

And it's not a 'both sides' or 'whataboutism'. This thinking of "we're the enlightened city folk, they need to come to US" mentality is why Democrats lost touch with the rust belt. Guess what? You may be right, and they might need to be educated on a host of issues. It's not gonna happen if you put the onus on them.

Democrats need to reach out to WWC period. Assigning blame, or trying to dictate who's supposed to take the first step isn't productive. It just needs to get done. It's not about validating antiquated beliefs, it's not about 'forcing them into the 21st century', it's about making progress and making it our personal responsibility to take the first step, find common ground and build on that.

 

[Ihyll]

I just hope his immigration policy was just rhetoric also and won't follow through with it. That's how most of the people I know would be affected...

 

[Maxim726X]

It's not like Trump actually cares about Republicans now that he's in office. At some point somebody in the executive branch is going to sit him down, draw a little diagram and show him how the Iran deal works. Then he'll quietly flip-flop on killing it.

I pray you're right, but I don't think you are.

It's not just the party he'll piss off, but the army of Hannity/Limbaugh/O'Reilly listeners that voted him into office.

 

[A Human Becoming]

One thing I think we can all agree on: The media as a whole failed the American public.

 

[StoOgE]

White people will say literally anything to avoid other white people being blamed for their white nationalism.

Come on man. That's too fucking far.

I hate the Deplorables as much as anyone. But she lost 7 million voters who voted for a black man. They arent unreachable. We can either chalk that up to the country being so fucking racist that we just pack it up and go home and wrote the country off as lost.

Or we can figure out WHY 7 million votes were lost.

 

[thehypocrite]

I made no excuses. What I posted was the truth of what happened, as opposed to your perception of what happened—that Hillary offered Sanders and his supporters nothing. That somehow that guys actually wanted to vote for her, when at the bottom of this very response you made you repeat the 'rigged' narrative. You couldn't counter what I said about what Hillary's campaign ended up offering Sanders, because that actually happened! You couldn't counter what I said about the ruckus they made at the DNC and then still went Never Hillary, because that is also fact.

Your very own tale indicates how they clearly never wanted to vote for Hillary in the first place, which meant it was never about voting for policy or ideals or progressivism, and not even about communities and the American people. They never wanted to vote for Democrats, they wanted to keep their moral purity. What about your story has offered a counter to anything I posted?

The reason Sanders could not win the primaries was because he did not appeal to the Democratic base. No matter what you say, if he had been competent enough, he would have won more delegates and more votes than Hillary in the primary. Obama did it against Hillary in 2008, when people were also saying she was the handpicked candidate. Even if the DNC picks a candidate, they are unable to force the voters to pick her. Nobody can even draw a direct line to how the DNC managed to rig the primaries to actual voter choice. You just keep repeating the narrative so you can ignore democracy and delegitimize Hillary's primary win.

Hillary look at the post that compares Hillary's position with the republicans and Sanders and tell me again how on those she stands for progressives. She isn't authentic look at the emails that show the sausage making process of how she assumes public positions.

These kinds of posts are insulting to the majority of people, the many millions of voters who voted for Hillary. They were not tricked by the DNC. If Bernie was a better candidate he would have won, plain and simple. Stop making excuses.

Yeah a lot of voters from states that have no influence on the actual battle for the election result. I know this sounds awful but that's the political system in the US. If you want it to change you need to win elections using the current system in place.

 

[Crocodile]

The issue with "maybe all of Trump's racism was just a joke" is that the deplorables wouldn't know that (they already feel emboldened) and PoC know they will take all of this as a mandate to fuck with us. Politics is FUCKED if you can just lie about EVERYTHING and then never mean any of the things you say. Politicians of both sides have a history of actually trying to do what they campaign for. If the campaign is now meaningless rhetoric, how can voters make an informed decision?

There's also the poor impulse control and predilection towards vengeance that Trump has that I think is clearly not "faked".

The underlying argument was they would have fallen in line because what choice do they have....

But we don't have to....

It's discomforting and it worries me about the direction of the American progressive movement

Yeah this bothers me too. I voted Clinton in the primaries but I would have gotten in line with Sanders 1000% in the GE because I can do risk assessment. A Black family with a ton of Muslims in it? We know our ass is on the line. Some White liberals (not all thankfully) can afford to be privileged bums and sit it out because "purity".

 

[B-Dubs]

One thing I think we can all agree on: The media as a whole failed the American public.

 

[TyrantII]

Katy Tur was speaking earlier saying she was also hearing from many people close to Trump that he isn't like his rally rhetoric at all.

I highly doubt whatever he is is good, but I guess it is something?

Does it really matter? The GOP has total control over all levers of Government.

It's almost better that he's unhinged and will support policies wildly different than conservative dogma, because it sets up intra-party tensions that wont be easy to surmount.

He's not working with a Dem congress. Hes working with the GOP looking to smash and grab everything they can in 4 years.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I pray you're right, but I don't think you are.

It's not just the party he'll piss off, but the army of Hannity/Limbaugh/O'Reilly listeners that voted him into office.

Chances are, Hannity and company only hate it because Obama wanted it.

Talk radio won't go against Trump. Their listeners are huge Trump fans. It's Trump who holds the cards and their popularity, not the other way around.

 

[dramatis]

One thing I think we can all agree on: The media as a whole failed the American public.

I think there's another thing we can all agree on, which was that Gallup ironically helped themselves by sitting out this election.

Gallup was probably right in 2012 when they sat back and said they didn't know what they were doing, so they need to back off for a bit and think again.

 

[Spider from Mars]

One thing I think we can all agree on: The media as a whole failed the American public.

I think they thought this was Kabuki theater or something and not a presidential election.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

I really do hope Trump will be a good president. Blank slate and all that.

(hoping the climate transition team rumor is not a sign)

 

[Kusagari]

Literally all Trump has to do is meet with Iranian leaders, detail a tweaked, but essentially the same, agreement and brag about how he renegotiated everything for a better deal.

 

[Outdoor Miner]

I think they are full of shit as far as Iran goes. We tear up the agreement and then what? Go to war? Within the 1st year? The citizenry will fucking love that.

The only campaign bullet point I know they are for sure going to follow thru on is repealing Obamacare. They have cornered themselves in on that one and their supporters will not let them get away with it.

 

[faisal233]

I pray you're right, but I don't think you are.

It's not just the party he'll piss off, but the army of Hannity/Limbaugh/O'Reilly listeners that voted him into office.

Hannity/Limbaugh/O'Reilly are dead. They just don't know it. Breitbart wants to monopolize the right wing media with trump and they will succeed. Hannity/Limbaugh will fall in line of fade away.

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

I really do hope Trump will be a good president. Blank slate and all that.

(hoping the climate transition team rumor is not a sign)

If I were Obama, the ONE thing I would tell Trump to blindly believe me in is climate change.

 

[B-Dubs]

Literally all Trump has to do is meet with Iranian leaders, detail a tweaked, but essentially the same, agreement and brag about how he renegotiated everything for a better deal.

He don't even gotta tweak it! He just got to go over there, sit in a room for 20 minutes, walk out and declare victory and his people will buy it.

 

[jtb]

To be fair, Hillary didn't really try. Mook clearly wanted to run a certain sort of campaign and there was no room in there for the non-progressive base of the party. So we lost them.

If she had hammered Trump on outsourcing jobs, on not paying workers. On Bankruptcy being used to get out of debt owed to Unions. He was Mitt Romney on crack when it came to stepping on the little guy to get rich.

But she decided his being deplorable was enough. And it was for me, and all of us. But we are the progressive end of the party who is horrified by that stuff.

Clearly a large swath of the Dem base was voted for MAGA and the promise of returned jobs. She never called him out on trade wars and his economic policy being horrible for the very people he was pandering to. She never called him out as a liar for promising apple would bring jobs. She should have called him a snake oil salesmen in a debate and hit him.

But she was happy to say 80 economists said this, and 90 generals said that and appeal to critical thinking. Obama would have hammered him on these things and not because he is carrismatic. He had better people around him.

Mook and Brooklyn created an elite liberal urban message and ran on it and did not care about those marginal Dem voters in the country and burbs who might have been put off by it. You have to play to both groups and get everyone in the tent.

I'm as pissed off about the baskets of deplorables as anyone. But we should not have written off those democratic voters in the rust belt.

totally agree.

The problem was the Clinton campaign thought they had to choose one message against Trump. well... 1. if that premise is true, they chose the wrong message. they thought painting him as the deplorable, unnacceptable candidate would win college educated votes. the college educated laughed in our faces.

2. why choose just one? he gave democrats every avenue to attack him. and, on the flip side, he used every avenue to attack Hillary... attacked her from the left, the right, attacked her strengths, attacked her weaknesses. if you're going to use a micro-targeted data-driven campaign, then use micro-targeted, data-driven messaging and attacks.

I think it's unfair to pin all of this on Mook (though the resource allocation based on data was clearly lacking), but he was clearly a data guy over a messaging guy... if he was Plouffe, where was the Axelrod of this campaign? Messaging failure.