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[Plinko]

"Bu-bu-bu Trump!" isn't going to wash away the fact that Hillary's email screwup gave the republicans all the ammo (blanks or real) they needed to screw her out of the presidency. That's what I was arguing. I didn't blame her at all.

Biden doesn't have that. Sanders doesn't. Neither does Warren or like a hundred other candidates.

You can't compare the two. FBI wasn't led by a democrat and, even if it was, they probably don't do that to the other candidate. That was a pure scumbag move, and I don't see dems do that stuff often.

 

[JesseEwiak]

"Bu-bu-bu Trump!" isn't going to wash away the fact that Hillary's email screwup gave the republicans all the ammo (blanks or real) they needed to screw her out of the presidency. That's what I was arguing. I didn't blame her at all.

Biden doesn't have that. Sanders doesn't. Neither does Warren or like a hundred other candidates.

You can't compare the two. FBI wasn't led by a democrat and, even if it was, they probably don't do that to the other candidate. That was a pure scumbag move, and I don't see dems do that stuff often.

Just reminding you that the GOP managed to make John Kerry's Vietnam service a negative. I mean, you don't think Biden's warm embrace of the credit card companies while he was Delaware's Senator wouldn't have come up or Bernie's wives college going down the drain?

Yes, Hillary had a lot of baggage, but a lot of that baggage was exacerbated by the media acting like everything was the worst thing ever.

 

[Plinko]

Just reminding you that the GOP managed to make John Kerry's Vietnam service a negative. I mean, you don't think Biden's warm embrace of the credit card companies while he was Delaware's Senator wouldn't have come up or Bernie's wives college going down the drain?

Yes, Hillary had a lot of baggage, but a lot of that baggage was exacerbated by the media acting like everything was the worst thing ever.

Hillary actually did something that was a security issue, though. Biden's credit card thing is a colossal "meh" compared to something presented as a "trust with national security information" issue. Not even close to the same thing to rural voters.

 

[Suikoguy]

Hillary actually did something that was a security issue, though. Biden's credit card thing is a colossal "meh" compared to something presented as a "trust with national security information" issue. Not even close to the same thing to rural voters.

What security issue? The media and population had every right to be upset at the situation, had she been using it for classified information.

 

[metalslimer]

God it doesn't even matter. The real takeaway from all this is that we don't need to throw away our entire strategy going forward.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

We have no idea what any of the other speculative candidates "have" because the GOP didn't spend years digging up shit on them.

The email thing was a witch hunt, full stop. Or like the Lewinsky scandal, it was a screw-up buried inside a witch hunt. Except Bill's real fuck-up was trying to worm out of admitting his affair under oath. Hillary didn't come close to doing anything like that. It only turned up because the GOP held five hundred different Benghazi investigations. If she wasn't an obvious Presidential candidate we would have never have heard about it, just like we didn't hear about Colin Powell's cavalier attitude towards email until like three months ago.

She did something lazy and convenient that could have potentially led to a possible security issue. There's no telling what other minor fuck-ups would have torpedoed anyone else's candidacies because most of them are too small to ever be brought to light.

 

[kirblar]

Just reminding you that the GOP managed to make John Kerry's Vietnam service a negative. I mean, you don't think Biden's warm embrace of the credit card companies while he was Delaware's Senator wouldn't have come up or Bernie's wives college going down the drain?

Yes, Hillary had a lot of baggage, but a lot of that baggage was exacerbated by the media acting like everything was the worst thing ever.

Jane Sanders' college bankruptcy would have been far worse than the email "scandal."

 

[Plinko]

What security issue? The media and population had every right to be upset at the situation, had she been using it for classified information.

Her email situation was presented as a security issue, therefore it appears worse to voters than something like Biden's credit card issue.

 

[Plinko]

God it doesn't even matter. The real takeaway from all this is that we don't need to throw away our entire strategy going forward.

This is not any discussion we are having right now. I agree with you, but not what is being discussed.

We have no idea what any of the other speculative candidates "have" because the GOP didn't spend years digging up shit on them.

The email thing was a witch hunt, full stop. Or like the Lewinsky scandal, it was a screw-up buried inside a witch hunt. Except Bill's real fuck-up was trying to worm out of admitting his affair under oath. Hillary didn't come close to doing anything like that. It only turned up because the GOP held five hundred different Benghazi investigations. If she wasn't an obvious Presidential candidate we would have never have heard about it, just like we didn't hear about Colin Powell's cavalier attitude towards email until like three months ago.

She did something lazy and convenient that could have potentially led to a possible security issue. There's no telling what other minor fuck-ups would have torpedoed anyone else's candidacies because most of them are too small to ever be brought to light.

Biden has been in the public eye for decades, and in the White House for 8 years. If there was something there, they'd have found it by now.

Jane Sanders' college bankruptcy would have been far worse than the email "scandal."

Not in the eyes of rural voters. Nowhere close.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Her email situation was presented as a security issue, therefore it appears worse to voters than something like Biden's credit card issue.

It appears worse because they decided to make it appear worse. If Biden ran, making sure credit card companies got their pound of flesh from people trying to file for bankruptcy would be made to sound like the worst thing in the universe. Which, you know, isn't that difficult.

 

[Plinko]

It appears worse because they decided to make it appear worse. If Biden ran, making sure credit card companies got their pound of flesh from people trying to file for bankruptcy would be made to sound like the worst thing in the universe. Which, you know, isn't that difficult.

Eh, I disagree. Rural voters are much more influenced by security/military-type stuff. GOP could have tried but it would have looked equivalent to the other side, where he wasn't paying contractors, etc. Hillary's email stuff resonated huge, which is why Comey's thing tipped the election.

 

[MIMIC]

Jane Sanders' college bankruptcy would have been far worse than the email "scandal."

No it wouldn't have.

And all of these hypotheticals are coming from the school of "Nobody will care about Hillary being the 2nd most unpopular candidate in modern history," which in itself demonstrates a colossal disconnect about what people care about in a candidate.

 

[Aaron Strife]

It appears worse because they decided to make it appear worse. If Biden ran, making sure credit card companies got their pound of flesh from people trying to file for bankruptcy would be made to sound like the worst thing in the universe. Which, you know, isn't that difficult.

Biden also plagiarized a speech and wrote the crime bill that everyone decided was unilaterally Clinton's fault (and Sanders voted for it, but oh, who cares? He's allowed to flip-flop)

Dunno if either would have stuck though because he's more charismatic than Clinton and has a penis.

 

[sc0la]

Dunno if either would have stuck though because he's more charismatic than Clinton and has a penis.

Nothing sticks to the teflon don

Spoiler

g

.

 

[Sirpopopop]

No it wouldn't have.

And all of these hypotheticals are coming from the school of "Nobody will care about Hillary being the 2nd most unpopular candidate in modern history," which in itself demonstrates a colossal disconnect about what people care about in a candidate.

She still got more votes than Obama in 2012.

Besides, the "most unpopular candidate" in history is the one that won. The one that got more votes than any of his more "popular" Republican predecessors ever got.

 

[BanGy.nz]

How about instead of arguing about a hypothetical world where Bernie won the primary we remember they're both losers who'll never be president.

 

[sc0la]

I admit she was a bad candidate.

However I don't regret that she ran, that we nominated her or that I voted for her. Being a campaigner and a candidate are completely different worlds from governing, and despite her candidate flaws I still think she was one of the best equipped to be president to ever run.

She still got more votes than Obama in 2012.

Besides, the "most unpopular candidate" in history is the one that you won. The one that got more votes than any of his more "popular" Republican predecessors ever got.

This is all true.

 

[whyamihere]

How about instead of arguing about a hypothetical world where Bernie won the primary we remember they're both losers who'll never be president.

.

 

[Retromelon]

How about instead of arguing about a hypothetical world where Bernie won the primary we remember they're both losers who'll never be president.

Never say never

 

[Wilsongt]

No it wouldn't have.

And all of these hypotheticals are coming from the school of "Nobody will care about Hillary being the 2nd most unpopular candidate in modern history," which in itself demonstrates a colossal disconnect about what people care about in a candidate.

The most "unpopular candidate in history" was not unpopular until this shit show of an election started.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...y-clintons-approval-rating-secretary-state-w/

 

[Suikoguy]

The most "unpopular candidate in history" was not unpopular until this shit show of an election started.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...y-clintons-approval-rating-secretary-state-w/

Why are you breaking the bubble of revisionist history created by Hillary Haters?

 

[Wilsongt]

Why are you breaking the bubble of revisionist history created by Hillary Haters?

Their bubble's gonna burst on Jan 20th, might as well do it early. :3

 

[whyamihere]

stop relitigating the primary oh my god.

 

[benjipwns]

"I think when people voted for Donald Trump they realized he owned a lot of stuff with his name on it." - Senator Rand Paul

 

[MIMIC]

She still got more votes than Obama in 2012.

Besides, the "most unpopular candidate" in history is the one that you won. The one that got more votes than any of his more "popular" Republican predecessors ever got.

Why do people keep saying she got "more" votes? Yes, she did....largely because the electorate got larger. But her relative margin of victory was smaller than both of Obama's wins

2008
Obama: 52.9%
McCain: 45.7%

2012
Obama: 51.1%
Romney: 47.2%

That's a margin of victory of 14.2% in 2008 and 3.9% in 2012. And he got at least half of the vote.
(edit: typo...supposed to be 7.2% for 2008)

2016
Hillary: 48.08%
Trump: 46%

Hillary's up by 2.1% (according to the latest numbers).

In 10 years, I'm sure that both nominees will exceed this year's raw numbers as well.

As for the unpopularity....yes, the more unpopular one won. But the difference was apparently negligible. According to RCP, Trump was at -13.4 and Hillary was at -12.6. That's a difference of less than 1%. But the point is that the very fact that she even in this position had a seriously massive impact on what the electorate thought of her, and whether or not they would even vote for her. Because after all, she was running against one of the vilest, least qualified candidate in history.

That hurt her. Badly. But it was all dismissed as "well, when she gets into office, people like her." There's only one problem: how the hell does she get into office when people think she's untrustworthy, corrupt, and unlikeable? That's the problem people ignored.

 

[shinra-bansho]

At this point relitigating the general is pretty boring too.

Err. No wonder the US can't parse fake news when maths skills are this poor. 53 - 47...? 14...?

 

[Debirudog]

How about instead of arguing about a hypothetical world where Bernie won the primary we remember they're both losers who'll never be president.

gotta let hubris kick in.

 

[benjipwns]

Why do people keep saying she got "more" votes? Yes, she did....largely because the electorate got larger. But her relative margin of victory was smaller than both of Obama's wins

2008
Obama: 52.9%
McCain: 45.7%

2012
Obama: 51.1%
Romney: 47.2%

That's a margin of victory of 14.2% in 2008 and 3.9% in 2012. And he got at least half of the vote.

2016
Hillary: 48.08%
Trump: 46%

Hillary's up by 2.1% (according to the latest numbers).

In 10 years, I'm sure that both nominees will exceed this year's raw numbers as well.

As for the unpopularity....yes, the more unpopular one won. But the difference was apparently negligible. According to RCP, Trump was at -13.4 and Hillary was at -12.6. That's a difference of less than 1%. But the point is that the very fact that she even in this position had a seriously massive impact on what the electorate thought of her, and whether or not they would even vote for her. Because after all, she was running against one of the vilest, least qualified candidate in history.

That hurt her. Badly. But it was all dismissed as "well, when she gets into office, people like her." There's only one problem: how the hell does she get into office when people think she's untrustworthy, corrupt, and unlikeable? That's the problem people ignored.

This is all fine but you're ignoring the fact that Hillary Clinton got more votes than George Washington did both times combined.

And not just the popular vote. She got more Electoral Votes than Washington in both his elections combined.

 

[dramatis]

I guess it was too much to ask of him.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...s-businesses-to-address-conflicts-of-interest

President-elect Donald Trump suggested Sunday that he will not sell off his business operations to avoid conflicts of interest during his presidency. He said he will instead allow his grown children to manage them.

"My executives will run it with my children. It's a big company. It's a great company. But I'm going to have nothing to do with management," Trump told Chris Wallace on Fox News Sunday.

Thursday is going to be a nothingburger.

.

Welcome back benji, how was your vacation

 

[benjipwns]

Welcome back benji, how was your vacation

 

[Makai]

Welcome back benji, how was your vacation

yesss

 

[benjipwns]

i was unbanned early for some reason

tho i didn't post until after my ban was originally up, it's important to have respect for the rule of law

 

[Makai]

i was unbanned early for some reason

tho i didn't post until after my ban was originally up, it's important to have respect for the rule of law

haha

 

[Wilsongt]

if only I could go into a coma for the next four to eight years.

 

[exmachina64]

Does anyone else have a feeling that Donald Trump may end up being a bad president?

No, he's going to be one of the greats. Any other opinion won't be allowed.

 

[geomon]

No, he's going to be one of the greats. Any other opinion won't be allowed.

Greatest 45th President ever!

 

[And_Gignac]

This is all fine but you're ignoring the fact that Hillary Clinton got more votes than George Washington did both times combined.

And not just the popular vote. She got more Electoral Votes than Washington in both his elections combined.

i was unbanned early for some reason

tho i didn't post until after my ban was originally up, it's important to have respect for the rule of law

Omg King.

 

[whyamihere]

i was unbanned early for some reason

tho i didn't post until after my ban was originally up, it's important to have respect for the rule of law

Loooool

 

[B-Dubs]

i was unbanned early for some reason

tho i didn't post until after my ban was originally up, it's important to have respect for the rule of law

Oh you :lol

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

How about instead of arguing about a hypothetical world where Bernie won the primary we remember they're both losers who'll never be president.

This.

I thought we were supposed to get this out of our systems by thanksgiving.

 

[Valdfellgar]

This.

I thought we were supposed to get this out of our systems by thanksgiving.

I think until a Trump Presidency is real, that's either the Electoral college vote on the 19th (I think?) or when he's sworn in, you'll find many a person still willing to hypothetically argue about Bernie v Hillary, or any other candidate and how 2016 would've gone down.

Only when we're actually feeling what's its like to be in a Trump led U.S. will people finally wake up and stop beating the dead horse.

Spoiler

Which is frustrating the hell out of me.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

I think until a Trump Presidency is real, that's either the Electoral college vote on the 19th (I think?) or when he's sworn in, you'll find many a person still willing to hypothetically argue about Bernie v Hillary, or any other candidate and how 2016 would've gone down.

Only when we're actually feeling what's its like to be in a Trump led U.S. will people finally wake up and stop beating the dead horse.

Spoiler

Which is frustrating the hell out of me.

I probably just pessimistic, but I'm not even feeling confident about that. I'm just hoping that people won't go at each others throats during the primaries again.

 

[Wilsongt]

I think until a Trump Presidency is real, that's either the Electoral college vote on the 19th (I think?) or when he's sworn in, you'll find many a person still willing to hypothetically argue about Bernie v Hillary, or any other candidate and how 2016 would've gone down.

Only when we're actually feeling what's its like to be in a Trump led U.S. will people finally wake up and stop beating the dead horse.

Spoiler

Which is frustrating the hell out of me.

No they won't. This shit will continue until 2020, and if Bernie doesn't run in 2020 it will keep going.

Bernie supporters are even more guilty of falling into revisionist history as those angry at Hillary for losing.

 

[Odrion]

How about instead of arguing about a hypothetical world where Bernie won the primary we remember they're both losers who'll never be president.

we need to end primary drama, truth

 

[Valdfellgar]

I probably just pessimistic, but I'm not even feeling confident about that. I'm just hoping that people won't go at each others throats during the primaries again.

It'll probably depend on a few factors. If the DNC has a perceivable 'favored' candidate like Hillary again, not that the DNC rigged the election or anything, but you could tell they favored her, that doesn't match up with the more passionate voters that could be a problem.

It'd also be a problem if another cult of personality/message candidate, like Bernie, appears again. It'll also depend on how weathered in politics any of the candidates are. I think 2020's primary won't look anything like 2016s. Ultimately the DNC have a boogie man this time, Trump, and I think there'll be less mud slinging (not that there was much) and more focus on trying to position themselves as the best barer of hope.

I'm decently optimistic for 2020, considering we know how many people stood against Trump this year, and the unlikely hood that the country will actually be better off by 2020, it's more likely his support will dwindle and collapse by 2020 than bolster. I think even someone like Hillary would probably win fairly favorably once the illusion that Trump can run the country like a business and come out on top is shattered.

No they won't. This shit will continue until 2020, and if Bernie doesn't run in 2020 it will keep going.

Bernie supporters are even more guilty of falling into revisionist history as those angry at Hillary for losing.

Maybe a vocal few, but I think most people will move on from it when reality smacks them in the face.

 

[benjipwns]

I'm just hoping that people won't go at each others throats during the primaries again.

There won't be a presumptive nominee eight years before the next primary.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

There won't be a presumptive nominee eight years before the next primary.

Lol...

 

[NetMapel]

Watching the documentary, the Untold History of the United States, on Netflix now. Boy did Truman screw up after FDR's prudent work during the war. His ex-VP Wallace was robbed in the dems convention of 1944. So I am of the conclusion that the dems seem to have a history of screwing themselves eh? I can see why the soviets and US got bad blood after all the stuff that happened during the war and post-war.

 

[Wilsongt]

Watching the documentary, a the Untold History of the United States, on Netflix now. Boy did Truman screw up after FDR's prudent work during the war. His ex-VP Wallace was robbed in the dems convention of 1944. So I am of the conclusion that the dems seem to have a history of screwing themselves eh? I can see why the soviets and US got bad blood after all the stuff that happened during the war and post-war.

Not anymore, though. I am sure the old soviets and those who long for the return of the Soviet Union are creaming themselves right now over Trump's presidency and cabinet. Why try to strong arm Russian propoganda with RT in the US when you can just send it through the US's president?

 

[benjipwns]

Watching the documentary, a the Untold History of the United States, on Netflix now. Boy did Truman screw up after FDR's prudent work during the war. His ex-VP Wallace was robbed in the dems convention of 1944. So I am of the conclusion that the dems seem to have a history of screwing themselves eh?

Wallace was a Soviet useful idiot then and also generally not of sound temperament. (He then reversed and overcompensated to where he backed McCarthy in hunting Commies even after Nixon turned on him.) Even FDR didn't trust him to end the war. He preferred William O. Douglas. But the Party pushed for Truman because he was generally acceptable to all factions.

Also, Truman was completely locked out of the administration. When FDR died was the first time he knew anything the Administration was doing regarding the war/the atomic bomb/etc.

Wallace would have never been re-elected like Truman. Assuming he wasn't impeached in the wake of The War.

And I like Wallace as an overall political figure much like I do John C. Calhoun.

Further note: Remember that the Untold History is by Oliver Stone. I love love love love revisionism, but don't mistake it for an attempt at objective history.