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PoliGAF 2017 |OT4| The leaks are coming from inside the white house

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J

jtb

Banned
PBY said:
I don't think she threw him under the bus, she was just stating fact. Before, Obama basically said what you noted above, that we might need the ACA to introduce more sweeping reform.
Click to expand...

I agree. But compare how Dem pols are talking about ACA today with the fraught hamhandedness they were talking about it before the election. There's a lot more freedom to "fix" the status quo now without inflicting friendly fire.
 
K

kirblar

Member
jtb said:
I agree. But compare how Dem pols are talking about ACA today with the fraught hamhandedness they were talking about it before the election. There's a lot more freedom to "fix" the status quo now.
Click to expand...
Nostalgia's an easier sell than new and scary. (especially when new and scary is legit scary)
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
jtb said:
I agree. But compare how Dem pols are talking about ACA today with the fraught hamhandedness they were talking about it before the election. There's a lot more freedom to "fix" the status quo now without inflicting friendly fire.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think this may have been a problem Clinton faced. It's hard to talk about income inequality and how everything sucks when you're attaching yourself at the hip to the incumbent administration.
 
G

Greigor The Fellhand

Member
I'm laughing at how riled up Sean Hannity is over Wittes. stuff is hilarious.


So the bill is delayed, that means Trump is going to throw another beer and pizza party like he did for the house to try and get everyone to say yes
 
B

Barzul

Member
If Schumer was smart. He'd ready up a bill, have the CBO score it and try and woo Heller + Collins + Murkowski. THere needs to be an alternative and the alternative can't be just ACA or the single payer pipe dream that won't pass till Dems have full control.
 
B

Blader

Member
PBY said:
Soooo

the vote is delayed

they're all circling up today

murkowski and collins seem like they're no, but open ... given PP concessions..


I don't like this tbh
Click to expand...

I can understand pessimism, but this is just silly. If there's one thing that Hill Republicans can nearly uniformly agree on -- not just a majority of their conference, but nearly an entirety of it -- its opposition to Planned Parenthood and any form of support for it. Especially after those O'Keefe videos.

McConnell allowing for PP concessions will cost the bill a hell of a lot more senators than the 1-2 votes it loses while defunding PP.
 
P

PBY

Banned
Blader said:
I can understand pessimism, but this is just silly. If there's one thing that Hill Republicans can nearly uniformly agree on -- not just a majority of their conference, but nearly an entirety of it -- its opposition to Planned Parenthood and any form of support for it. Especially after those O'Keefe videos.

McConnell allowing for PP concessions will cost the bill a hell of a lot more senators than the 1-2 votes it loses while defunding PP.
Click to expand...

My point in including that is this. They're willing to talk over PP funding. That wasn't even their original objection. Ergo - they're willing to negotiate.
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
The bill is not tabled, just delayed. McConnell wants to pass this. There were a lot of headlines that said he "wanted to just hold a vote" and let it live or die based on that. That was always wrong. He wants to pass this, and will fight tooth and nail to get it there.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
PBY said:
You're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too optimistic.
Click to expand...

But like, I look at the PANIC OMG PANIC since last Thursday and see this timeline of magic changing narratives

On Friday/Thursday
- This entire thing is pre-planned to have Collins and Heller vote no, this is over already
"Rand Paul says he won't vote for the bill"
- This entire thing is pre-planned to have Heller and Paul vote no, this is over already
"Paul, Cruz, Lee and Johnson say they won't vote for the bill"
- This entire thing is pre-planned, those four won't even make it the weekend before folding
"Lee and Johnson re-affirm they aren't voting for the bill"
- This entire thing is pre-planned, they're just waiting to make a grand bargain
"Collins says she will not vote for the bill, lives little room for compromise"
- Obviously, since Heller and Collins were the pre-defined no votes
"Rand Paul continues to say he will not vote for the bill and McConnell is ignoring his calls"
- Okay, but they'll obviously work something out, it's all for show
"Portman is lean yes, but nobody is answering his calls, so he might vote no"
- Still, a grand bargain is coming!
"Murkowski now implies she won't vote without more PP funding. Collins with her"
- Okay, so what, they'll turn eventually
"After an all hands on deck meeting, the vote is delayed 2 weeks out"
- This is BAD BAD BAD

The narrative of pessimism has continued to change over the last week to fit the current narrative, despite the obvious signs since Friday that this bill was in serious trouble.
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
Barzul said:
If Schumer was smart. He'd ready up a bill, have the CBO score it and try and woo Heller + Collins + Murkowski. THere needs to be an alternative and the alternative can't be just ACA or the single payer pipe dream that won't pass till Dems have full control.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Heller could score some protection for next year, Collins could bolster her bipartisan cred for her next Senate run or even a gubernatorial run next year, and Murkowski can do whatever the fuck she wants because she wins write-ins.

But they're cowards.
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
balladofwindfishes said:
But like, I look at the PANIC OMG PANIC and see this time line

On Friday
- This entire thing is pre-planned to have Collins and Heller vote no, this is over already
"Rand Paul says he won't vote for the bill"
- This entire thing is pre-planned to have Heller and Paul vote no, this is over already
"Paul, Cruz, Lee and Johnson say they won't vote for the bill"
- This entire thing is pre-planned, those four won't even make it the weekend before folding
"Lee and Johnson re-affirm they aren't voting for the bill"
- This entire thing is pre-planned, they're just waiting to make a grand bargain
"Collins says she will not vote for the bill, lives little room for compromise"
- Obviously, since Heller and Collins were the pre-defined no votes
"Rand Paul continues to say he will not vote for the bill and McConnell is ignoring his calls"
- Okay, but they'll obviously work something out, it's all for show
"Portman is lean yes, but nobody is answering his calls, so he might vote no"
- Still, a grand bargain is coming!
"Murkowski now implies she won't vote without more PP funding. Collins with her"
- Okay, so what, they'll turn eventually
"After an all hands on deck meeting, the vote is delayed 2 weeks out"
- This is BAD BAD BAD

The narrative of pessimism has continued to change over the last week to fit the current narrative, despite the obvious signs since Friday that this bill was in serious trouble.
Click to expand...

Until they hold a vote and the vote actually fails and they table the bill, pessimism is all that's deserved. You're taking the slimiest people in this country at their word.
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
I absolutely won't breathe easy on healthcare until and unless Democrats can get control of the House. That having been said

benicillin said:
Everyone who was convinced that this was all political theater to get the vote done this week should take at least a little L. Just a little one.
Click to expand...

Yup. The "IT'S HAPPENING NOW AND YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS IF YOU THINK THERE ARE ANY OBSTACLES IT'S ALL THEATER" crowd could really stand to admit that they don't know everything. But given their collective response to yesterday's tweet that literally just reported that McConnell was smiling, I'm not expecting humility from them any time soon, just more goal post moving.
 
P

PBY

Banned
Box of Kittens said:
I absolutely won't breathe easy on healthcare until and unless Democrats can get control of the House. That having been said



Yup. The "IT'S HAPPENING NOW AND YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS IF YOU THINK THERE ARE ANY OBSTACLES IT'S ALL THEATER" crowd could really stand to admit that they don't know everything. But given their collective response to yesterday's tweet that literally just reported that McConnell was smiling, I'm not expecting humility from them any time soon, just more goal post moving.
Click to expand...

Who are you even shouting at? Many of us think that the objections are real, it may not even be coordinated, but that there is still a very REAL chance that those objections fade with minor concessions and/or goading to fall in line at the last minute.

And that hasn't changed.
 
B

Blader

Member
PBY said:
My point in including that is this. They're willing to talk over PP funding. That wasn't even their original objection. Ergo - they're willing to negotiate.
Click to expand...

What? PP + Medicaid have been Collins and Murkowski's biggest concerns from day one. I'm not saying Murkowski's vote can't be bought in the end (again, she ended up voting for the 2015 repeal even after her and Collins' PP amendment was rejected). But McConnell giving in on PP concessions is not something you should be worrying about.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
Macho Madness said:
Until they hold a vote and the vote actually fails and they table the bill, pessimism is all that's deserved. You're taking the slimiest people in this country at their word.
Click to expand...
Basically

PANIC is the correct attitude to have until we know it fails for sure

Run around with your hair on fire people
 
P

PBY

Banned
Blader said:
What? PP + Medicaid have been Collins and Murkowski's biggest concerns from day one. I'm not saying Murkowski's vote can't be bought in the end (again, she ended up voting for the 2015 repeal even after her and Collins' PP amendment was rejected). But McConnell giving in on PP concessions is not something you should be worrying about.
Click to expand...

All I'm saying was that Collins was a pretty strong no, with tweets that would be difficult to walk back particularly with respect to Medicaid. Now Collins is willing to talk over PP? That is some movement.

That's all I'm saying.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Dubbedinenglish said:
Hot take: Heller broke the back of bill, if he didn't come out this would've went to plan.
Click to expand...

I was thinking it was Paul, but yea, there was some legit shock on Friday from Heller's statement.

Did Governor Sandoval just save millions of lives?

PBY said:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/27/republicans-key-repeal-vote-delay-240010

They're gonna rewrite the bill and get a new CBO score.
Click to expand...

oh my god

This isn't getting done until October
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
Box of Kittens said:
I absolutely won't breathe easy on healthcare until and unless Democrats can get control of the House. That having been said



Yup. The "IT'S HAPPENING NOW AND YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS IF YOU THINK THERE ARE ANY OBSTACLES IT'S ALL THEATER" crowd could really stand to admit that they don't know everything. But given their collective response to yesterday's tweet that literally just reported that McConnell was smiling, I'm not expecting humility from them any time soon, just more goal post moving.
Click to expand...
I don't think I know anything special, I just don't see what makes the Senate moderates different from the House moderates and why we can expect them to stop the bill while the House didn't.

Don Young voted for the bill even though he has the same constituencies as Murkowski and unlike her will be up for reelection next year instead of in 2022.
 
B

Blader

Member
PBY said:
All I'm saying was that Collins was a pretty strong no, with tweets that would be difficult to walk back particularly with respect to Medicaid. Now Collins is willing to talk over PP? That is some movement.

That's all I'm saying.
Click to expand...

Collin willing to talk over ABORTIONS, an issue that the GOP is programmed to hate more than anything else in this country, is not movement.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
Box of Kittens said:
I absolutely won't breathe easy on healthcare until and unless Democrats can get control of the House. That having been said



Yup. The "IT'S HAPPENING NOW AND YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS IF YOU THINK THERE ARE ANY OBSTACLES IT'S ALL THEATER" crowd could really stand to admit that they don't know everything. But given their collective response to yesterday's tweet that literally just reported that McConnell was smiling, I'm not expecting humility from them any time soon, just more goal post moving.
Click to expand...

I fundamentally agree with this!
 
K

kirblar

Member
Bonen no Max'd said:
god forbid the Democrats pass policies popular with their voters
Click to expand...
Lots of things are popular that aren't good ideas. (Single payer in a vacuum is fine, Single payer as a next step makes zero sense- the way to get to it is to backdoor it via a public option if insurers start pulling out and making it a de facto one.)
whyamihere said:
I fundamentally agree with this!
Click to expand...
I wonder how much damage the "Chicken Little" fundraising and activism approach is going to do long-term. It cannot be healthy.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
Bonen no Max'd said:
god forbid the Democrats pass policies popular with their voters
Click to expand...
We literally have to or people will never vote for the party in the numbers we need again.

Everyone said that the numbers weren't there for Trump to win on going as far to the right as he did but.. whoops! Turned out people who never voted before in numbers we haven't seen because he excited them.

If that's what the GOP does going forward we literally don't have a choice other than actually getting out people who want to vote for us in huge numbers instead of placating to a dying center. Hillary may as well have been as liberal as Bernie to most republicans anyway it's not like her more moderate agenda made her more palatable
 
B

Barzul

Member
Why is it so impossible for them to just work with Democrats and ignore the tea party fanatics. You're more likely to get a bill passed that way.

Autodidact said:
Governor Sandoval can join the Moderate Darling club.

And he can be my daddy.
Click to expand...

Didn't he veto Medicaid for all?
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
kirblar said:
Lots of things are popular that aren't good ideas. (Single payer in a vacuum is fine, Single payer as a next step makes zero sense- the way to get to it is to backdoor it via a public option if insurers start pulling out and making it a de facto one.)

I wonder how much damage the "Chicken Little" fundraising and activism approach is going to do long-term. It cannot be healthy.
Click to expand...
That doesn't work as a campaign chant.

Even if the numbers aren't there to get single payer done and we need to move with a public option first..

Sell people an exciting idea and attempt to do it.
 
Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
balladofwindfishes said:
But like, I look at the PANIC OMG PANIC since last Thursday and see this timeline of magic changing narratives

On Friday/Thursday
- This entire thing is pre-planned to have Collins and Heller vote no, this is over already
"Rand Paul says he won't vote for the bill"
- This entire thing is pre-planned to have Heller and Paul vote no, this is over already
"Paul, Cruz, Lee and Johnson say they won't vote for the bill"
- This entire thing is pre-planned, those four won't even make it the weekend before folding
"Lee and Johnson re-affirm they aren't voting for the bill"
- This entire thing is pre-planned, they're just waiting to make a grand bargain
"Collins says she will not vote for the bill, lives little room for compromise"
- Obviously, since Heller and Collins were the pre-defined no votes
"Rand Paul continues to say he will not vote for the bill and McConnell is ignoring his calls"
- Okay, but they'll obviously work something out, it's all for show
"Portman is lean yes, but nobody is answering his calls, so he might vote no"
- Still, a grand bargain is coming!
"Murkowski now implies she won't vote without more PP funding. Collins with her"
- Okay, so what, they'll turn eventually
"After an all hands on deck meeting, the vote is delayed 2 weeks out"
- This is BAD BAD BAD

The narrative of pessimism has continued to change over the last week to fit the current narrative, despite the obvious signs since Friday that this bill was in serious trouble.
Click to expand...

This. One need only look over a lot of the replies on the past page to see it demonstrated once again.
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
Bonen no Max'd said:
I don't think I know anything special, I just don't see what makes the Senate moderates different from the House moderates and why we can expect them to stop the bill while the House didn't.

Don Young voted for the bill even though he has the same constituencies as Murkowski and unlike her will be up for reelection next year instead of in 2022.
Click to expand...

Representatives have to win gerrymandered districts. Senators win whole states, forcing them to be more moderate by structure of their chamber. Freedom Caucus Frank won't lose his seat by passing this bill, but Republican senator Dean Heller, whose state is at least purple if not light blue, will. Even if moderates in the House endanger themselves, they have more cover because of (1) safety in numbers and (2) a certain degree of gerrymandering.
 
P

PBY

Banned
kirblar said:
I wonder how much damage the "Chicken Little" fundraising and activism approach is going to do long-term. It cannot be healthy.
Click to expand...

I mean, I'm fairly sure the long view is that it ends in civil war or some other horrible violent outcome.

I am generally inclined to think that progressivism works best incrementally, but I'm in a position of tremendous privilege, so that's easy for me to say. I just don't know what the answer is when the opposition is stacking wins off their volume--->11 strategy, and the Dems are left in the cold. Its a tough one.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Barzul said:
Why is it so impossible for them to just work with Democrats and ignore the tea party fanatics. You're more likely to get a bill passed that way.
Click to expand...

That's just wrong. The GOP wants to dismantle the ACA, full-stop. In what universe would the Democrats help them? The Dems would help get a public option off the ground, but they'd never go backwards.
 
D

daedalius

Member
Barzul said:
Why is it so impossible for them to just work with Democrats and ignore the tea party fanatics. You're more likely to get a bill passed that way.



Didn't he veto Medicaid for all?
Click to expand...

It doesn't repeal Obamacare if they work with dems would be my guess.

They want it gone.
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
Barzul said:
Why is it so impossible for them to just work with Democrats and ignore the tea party fanatics. You're more likely to get a bill passed that way.



Didn't he veto Medicaid for all?
Click to expand...

Moderate Darlings always disappoint you everywhere but the bedroom. Never forget this invaluable life lesson.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
Barzul said:
Why is it so impossible for them to just work with Democrats and ignore the tea party fanatics. You're more likely to get a bill passed that way
Click to expand...
Because the GOP has more in common with tea party fanatics then Democrats

And every democrat would want the opposite done of what republicans want to do with Healthcare. The differences here are irreconcilable
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
Barzul said:
Why is it so impossible for them to just work with Democrats and ignore the tea party fanatics. You're more likely to get a bill passed that way.



Didn't he veto Medicaid for all?
Click to expand...
why would Democrats work on this with them and what would they possibly work on? The ACA is already a conservative healthcare plan, making it more conservative will only mean making things worse for people. Democrats have nothing to gain from working with Republicans on this.

Besides the Freedom Caucus is 31 members and there's only 18 blue dogs in the House, the Tea Party is more numerous than Democrats that want bipartisan street cred.
 
V

Vixdean

Member
What the fuck? Did anyone just see Chris Stewart on MSNBC? He's taking a much softer stance than I've ever seen from the hard right dummies. "We want to just make healthcare more affordable, Obamacare had some success, we just want to improve it" was basically the gist of it.
 
B

Barzul

Member
B-Dubs said:
That's just wrong. The GOP wants to dismantle the ACA, full-stop. In what universe would the Democrats help them? The Dems would help get a public option off the ground, but they'd never go backwards.
Click to expand...

daedalius said:
It doesn't repeal Obamacare if they work with dems would be my guess.

They want it gone.
Click to expand...

Autodidact said:
Moderate Darlings always disappoint you everywhere but the bedroom. Never forget this invaluable life lesson.
Click to expand...

I'm more concerned about a short term fix to shore up the insurance markets. A bailout basically. Obamacare IS in a death spiral in some states. That has to be looked at. I know they want full repeal but this is the law we've got right now and it needs shoring up. Sigh. It's just frustrating to see this shit play out.
 
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