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PoliGAF 2017 |OT4| The leaks are coming from inside the white house

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J

jtb

Banned
Valhelm said:
Abandoning regime change operations isn't "bending the knee". It's decent human behavior.

In the immediate future, the US government should diplomatically condemn electoral meddling while ceasing its identical behavior in other nations.

Sanctions are a no-go because they only impoverish everyday Russians.
Click to expand...

So how does any of this actually.... protect future American elections?
 
C

chadskin

Member
kirblar said:
Because they're trying to use it as a pretense to get the US to do what they want.
Click to expand...

Hey Trump too!

"We're a very powerful nuclear country and so are they," Mr Trump said. "I've been briefed. And I can tell you one thing about a briefing that we're allowed to say, because anybody that ever read the most basic book can say it, nuclear holocaust would be like no other."

"If we have a good relationship with Russia, believe me, that's a good thing. Not a bad thing."
Click to expand...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...re-nuclear-holocaust-amid-questioning-russia/
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Valhelm said:
Avoiding nuclear war. The Russian government would be substantially less bellicose if the US toned down its own aggression and imperialism. Ceasing our regime-change operations in states like Syria, Venezuela, and Iran (and Russia itself!) would give Russia far less cause to seek their influence by force.

Putin looms over Russia on two great stilts: oil sales and popular resentment of the West. While market forces and climate change are already starting to shake one of those pillars, Russians aren't going to stop loving Putin until Western governments stop fucking them over.
Click to expand...
For the sake of argument, let's grant you the premise that the West keeps "fucking [Russia] over"... if the West stops, what exactly makes you believe Putin changes his worldview and policies? What incentive or character trait makes you think he would change course?
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Valhelm said:
Abandoning regime change operations isn't "bending the knee". It's decent human behavior.

In the immediate future, the US government should diplomatically condemn electoral meddling while ceasing its identical behavior in other nations.

Sanctions are a no-go because they only impoverish everyday Russians.
Click to expand...

So.

Let's say that Russia invades Romania.

They decide to murder every single Roma person there.

What should the response be...? If sanctions are bad and any response will lead to nuclear war because apparently Putin is a dumb beast with no agency.

I'm super confused here.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
Valhelm said:
Abandoning regime change operations isn't "bending the knee". It's decent human behavior.

In the immediate future, the US government should diplomatically condemn electoral meddling while ceasing its identical behavior in other nations.

Sanctions are a no-go because they only impoverish everyday Russians.
Click to expand...

Some of the sanctions Putin is pushing hardest against are the ones specifically targeting the offshore holdings of Russian oligarchs.

I kinda feel like your whole analysis started with "the US is in the wrong" and you worked backwards from there. Syria and Venezuela aren't "regime change" operations in the same way Russian electoral interference was (and as far as I know we're not doing much of anything in Venezuela at all, Maduro's protestations to the contrary), and you're completely misattributing the start of hostilities by granting the Russian premise that they were "provoked" into the actions they took in Georgia and Ukraine.
 
B

Beer Monkey

Member
"We're a very powerful nuclear country and so are they," Mr Trump said. "I've been briefed. And I can tell you one thing about a briefing that we're allowed to say, because anybody that ever read the most basic book can say it, nuclear holocaust would be like no other."

"If we have a good relationship with Russia, believe me, that's a good thing. Not a bad thing."
Click to expand...

Remember the eight years of Obama where we all were terrified of nuclear war with Russia because our president refused to be Putin's toady?
 
K

kirblar

Member
The attempt to equivocate the US and Russia, a country that currently has concentration camps for gay people, is fucking ridiculous.
 
D

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
I man not be a fan of McCain, but thats pretty harsh:
GOP Committeewoman Appears to Call for John McCain’s Death

CWVGqQj.png
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
Beyond the horror of it all, it's hilarious to see dummy Socialists defending Syria.

Shia dictatorship in a country that is TEN PERCENT Shia has protests due to terrible government policies. Shia dictatorship decides to murder the protesters. Country rises up in civil war against their dictator. Major imperial powers intervene to prop up the dictatorship and then proceed to do ethnic cleansing.

This is like a dark parody of how America supposedly works foreign policy wise.
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Been a really long time without Scandal for Trump. Literally nothing gigantic since Friday. I think something will drop by 6-ish.
 
I

IggyChooChoo

Member
chadskin said:
I think you're misunderstanding what I was trying to say -- that some have become so afraid of Russia, they'd rather not respond to Russia's actions at all. That's dangerous when you're dealing with someone like Putin.
Click to expand...
Ah, I'm primed to expect people from the left criticizing liberal alarmism, downplaying legitimate Russia concerns as "scapegoating" and such. My bad. I agree.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
Ernest said:
Remember this fucking charade?


trumps_pence01112017getty.jpg
Click to expand...

This could be any of like 3 charades. I'm going to guess... divestment charade?

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Beyond the horror of it all, it's hilarious to see dummy Socialists defending Syria.

Shia dictatorship in a country that is TEN PERCENT Shia has protests due to terrible government policies. Shia dictatorship decides to murder the protesters. Country rises up in civil war against their dictator. Major imperial powers intervene to prop up the dictatorship and then proceed to do ethnic cleansing.

This is like a dark parody of how America supposedly works foreign policy wise.
Click to expand...

It is a little on the nose, yeah.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
chadskin said:
I think you're misunderstanding what I was trying to say -- that some have become so afraid of Russia, they'd rather not respond to Russia's actions at all. That's dangerous when you're dealing with someone like Putin.
Click to expand...

I totally misread your comment as well.

Too many people out there downplaying the Russian stuff, I thought you were another.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
jtb said:
Is that it? That's a pretty low bar.

also what evidence is there that Russians love Putin?
Click to expand...

Putin enjoys incredible popular support thanks to ability to unite every segment of the Russian population (except the liberals) under his weird mix of conservative values and left-wing rhetoric. The right likes him. The far left likes him. The immigrants like him and the Chechens love him. Most billionaires and gangsters also like Putin, often using illegal tactics to edge out the opposition in local races.

Most Russians think Putin is a necessary, if flawed, leader to protect their country from foreign attacks. The 90s really devastated Russia, in ways few Westerners really understand, so Putin is seen as a return to dignity and stability. Every Russian of voting age remembers the misery of the years before Putin, and many think his policies and resolve saved their economy and kicked out Western meddlers.

Due their country's lack of a liberal tradition, Russians are generally much less concerned by their government's red-faced conservatism and its rampant election fraud. A Russian woman I know, who is 18 and bisexual, despises the government's homophobia but worries that the liberal opposition could pave the way for another decade of abject poverty and Western domination.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Box of Kittens said:
It's unfortunate that the Senate map is so terrible, because this is what the lead up to a wave looks like.
Click to expand...
Seriously.

At least we stand a solid chance at getting a wave in 2020, but we'll probably whiff 2022 again (which on paper has the best opportunities for us - PA, WI, FL, NC, GA, AZ, IA, OH).
 
B

Box of Kittens

Banned
Aaron Strife said:
Seriously.

At least we stand a solid chance at getting a wave in 2020, but we'll probably whiff 2022 again (which on paper has the best opportunities for us - PA, WI, FL, NC, GA, AZ, IA, OH).
Click to expand...

At least for now Ron Johnson is saying he plans to retire at the end of his term. Not that replacing him with another Republican is an improvement in a practical sense, but I can hardly stomach the thought of that idiot getting elected three times.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Valhelm said:
Putin enjoys incredible popular support thanks to ability to unite every segment of the Russian population (except the liberals) under his weird mix of conservative values and left-wing rhetoric. The right likes him. The far left likes him. The immigrants like him and the Chechens love him. Most billionaires and gangsters also like Putin, often using illegal tactics to edge out the opposition in local races.

Most Russians think Putin is a necessary, if flawed, leader to protect their country from foreign attacks. The 90s really devastated Russia, in ways few Westerners really understand, so Putin is seen as a return to dignity and stability. Every Russian of voting age remembers the misery of the years before Putin, and many think his policies and resolve saved their economy and kicked out Western meddlers.

Due their country's lack of a liberal tradition, Russians are generally much less concerned by their government's red-faced conservatism and its rampant election fraud. A Russian woman I know, who is 18 and bisexual, despises the government's homophobia but worries that the liberal opposition could pave the way for another decade of abject poverty and Western domination.
Click to expand...

wut
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Box of Kittens said:
At least for now Ron Johnson is saying he plans to retire at the end of his term. Not that replacing him with another Republican is an improvement in a practical sense, but I can hardly stomach the thought of that idiot getting elected three times.
Click to expand...
I want to say we should stand a decent chance at flipping an open seat (WI was still really close last year), but our bench in WI is still really thin.

Maybe an open Senate contest would finally get Ron Kind to run.
 
J

jtb

Banned
How many times can we lose on that fucking 2010/2016/2022 map

Valhelm said:
Putin enjoys incredible popular support thanks to ability to unite every segment of the Russian population (except the liberals) under his weird mix of conservative values and left-wing rhetoric. The right likes him. The far left likes him. The immigrants like him and the Chechens love him. Most billionaires and gangsters also like Putin, often using illegal tactics to edge out the opposition in local races.

Most Russians think Putin is a necessary, if flawed, leader to protect their country from foreign attacks. The 90s really devastated Russia, in ways few Westerners really understand, so Putin is seen as a return to dignity and stability. Every Russian of voting age remembers the misery of the years before Putin, and many think his policies and resolve saved their economy and kicked out Western meddlers.

Due their country's lack of a liberal tradition, Russians are generally much less concerned by their government's red-faced conservatism and its rampant election fraud. A Russian woman I know, who is 18 and bisexual, despises the government's homophobia but worries that the liberal opposition could pave the way for another decade of abject poverty and Western domination.
Click to expand...

You're a true believer, huh.

Anyways, at least Putin only assassinates his own domestic enemies and rigs his own elections, rather than meddling in other countries' affairs.
 
K

kirblar

Member
jtb said:
How many times can we lose on that fucking 2010/2016/2022 map



You're a true believer, huh. Anyways, at least Putin only assassinates his own domestic enemies and rigs his own elections, rather than meddling in other countries' affairs.
Click to expand...
That's not true.

He also assassinates his allies.

2022 also likely to go badly lol
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
Aaron Strife said:
I want to say we should stand a decent chance at flipping an open seat (WI was still really close last year), but our bench in WI is still really thin.

Maybe an open Senate contest would finally get Ron Kind to run.
Click to expand...
Mark Pocan for all-gay delegation! We can call it the Wisconsin senate delegaytion, eh?
 
C

Carpe Libertatem

Member
Aaron Strife said:
Seriously.

At least we stand a solid chance at getting a wave in 2020, but we'll probably whiff 2022 again (which on paper has the best opportunities for us - PA, WI, FL, NC, GA, AZ, IA, OH).
Click to expand...

At the very least, opportunities for the GOP will be pretty limited in 2022 if we win in 2020. It'd basically be the equivalent of our 2018, I think.
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
Aaron Strife said:
I want to say we should stand a decent chance at flipping an open seat (WI was still really close last year), but our bench in WI is still really thin.

Maybe an open Senate contest would finally get Ron Kind to run.
Click to expand...

But 2022 will likely be a midterm year with an incumbent Democratic president. Ron Kind's House seat, which PVI describes as a true swing district, would be lost. He's managed to hold on through several Republican waves, so I'd be reluctant to have him relinquish the seat.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Beyond the horror of it all, it's hilarious to see dummy Socialists defending Syria.

Shia dictatorship in a country that is TEN PERCENT Shia has protests due to terrible government policies. Shia dictatorship decides to murder the protesters. Country rises up in civil war against their dictator. Major imperial powers intervene to prop up the dictatorship and then proceed to do ethnic cleansing.

This is like a dark parody of how America supposedly works foreign policy wise.
Click to expand...

There's a lot of ethnic cleansing happening in the Syrian Civil War, but it isn't really coming from the government side.

Syria is in fact one of the most clear-cut vindications of an anti-imperial worldview, because the proxies the US, Turkey, and the Gulf States support in that country are fucking monstrous. Thanks to decades of Saudi efforts to radicalize a segment of the Sunni majority, the country became host to hundreds of intensely sectarian militias with really bad aims. When popular protests broke out against the brutality of the Assad regime, these radical organizations seized control of the revolution and transformed it into a war of secularism versus sectarianism.

kirblar said:
Holy fuck you're fucking serious w/ that shit when he literally kills off his opposition and journalists.
Click to expand...

Putin's a monster, yet millions of Russians still think he's the only hope to save Russia from foreign aggression. The Russian public (particularly its LGBT community and progressive opposition) deserve far better than this fucking gangster state, but further antagonization of Russia won't bring down Putin. Historically, Western efforts to hurt the Russian government instead hurt the Russian public, fostering greater support for their government and convincing folks to look beyond state abuses. That the Russian public does not hate such a corrupt and violent regime speaks volumes about the failure of Western governments to handle the Russian situation.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
kirblar said:
That's not true.

He also assassinates his allies.

2022 also likely to go badly lol
Click to expand...

Also journalists that are mean to him.

Russia is essentially an old-style Eastern European dictatorship where you vote, but you only really have one choice and it's the dictator. If you say anything bad about him it's not good times.

Plus he's really good at the whole appearing to be populist thing for those who pay no attention.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
jtb said:
How many times can we lose on that fucking 2010/2016/2022 map
Click to expand...
Well, we actually gained last year.

While we should brace for a midterm loss in 2022 should we win the presidency, I'm not seeing where the GOP would make big gains on the Senate map. I'm guessing Hassan will be our only vulnerable senator - Illinois going red in 2010 was a fluke, and Bennet and Cortez-Masto will be running in states that are likely even more Democratic than they are now. Other than that there's California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Maryland, New York, Oregon, Vermont and Washington. Some of those could be mildly competitive under extreme circumstances I guess, as we saw with CA, CT and WA in 2010, but Fiorina and McMahon's candidacies fizzled out and Rossi was just a very good candidate who's done with politics.

I suspect if we win the Senate in 2020 we probably have it for at least four years.

Autodidact said:
But 2022 will likely be a midterm year with an incumbent Democratic president. Ron Kind's House seat, which PVI describes as a true swing district, would be lost. He's managed to hold on through several Republican waves, so I'd be reluctant to have him relinquish the seat.
Click to expand...
Kind's seat might not even exist anymore, at least in its current form. 2022 is the first election year after redistricting.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
I feel like this thread is doing a good job reminding me why I feel more comfortable identifying as a moderate Democrat than a far-left Democrat >_<
 
A

Autodidact

Banned
B-Dubs said:
wut
Click to expand...

I'll quote a post a I made last month because it seems relevant to the Russia discussion. Just replace "Republicans" with Russia. Basically, a whole lot of people got daddy issues and fall for the strongman nonsense, at home and abroad.

Autodidact said:
I swear, some Democrats have the strangest dynamic with Republicans. It's almost as though they've internalized the language about Republicans being the "strong," masculine party, and they want to please their fucking daddy who mocked them for being girly when they were young.

"Look, daddy, I let you make amendments to my bill. Will you praise me now?"

"Look, daddy, I got rid of the mean lady. Will you love me now?"

"Look, daddy, I reached across the aisle like you told me to. Will you stop hitting me now?"

The appropriate response to anything they say or ask should be, "Fuck you."
Click to expand...
 
J

jtb

Banned
Aaron Strife said:
Well, we actually gained last year.

While we should brace for a midterm loss in 2022 should we win the presidency, I'm not seeing where the GOP would make big gains on the Senate map. I'm guessing Hassan will be our only vulnerable senator - Illinois going red in 2010 was a fluke, and Bennet and Cortez-Masto will be running in states that are likely even more Democratic than they are now. Other than that there's California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Maryland, New York, Oregon, Vermont and Washington. Some of those could be mildly competitive under extreme circumstances I guess, as we saw with CA, CT and WA in 2010, but Fiorina and McMahon's candidacies fizzled out and Rossi was just a very good candidate who's done with politics.

I suspect if we win the Senate in 2020 we probably have it for at least four years.
Click to expand...

As a once-upon-a-time Seattlite, I will never understand the vice grip Dino Rossi has on all these suburban "moderates."
 
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