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[Deleted member 231381]

It's a pretty sad indictment of the American constitutional set-up that you're defending pork-barrel spending as a necessary tool to make things work. Nothing like low-level corruption to grease the wheels.

 

[FloydtheFathead]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/mick-mulvaney-good-shutdown-trump-point-dysfunction
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/po...nt-shutdown/DNEMd0QHExQKzCgEeEwqtM/story.html

Thank you

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

It's a pretty sad indictment of the American constitutional set-up that you're defending pork-barrel spending as a necessary tool to make things work. Nothing like low-level corruption to grease the wheels.

pretty sure the only constitutional feature I'd suggest importing from our constitution to other liberal democracies would be birthright citizenship

 

[Spoiled Milk]

It's a pretty sad indictment of the American constitutional set-up that you're defending pork-barrel spending as a necessary tool to make things work. Nothing like low-level corruption to grease the wheels.

This is how I used to feel but it reduces the collateral damage of partisan fighting.

Well, maybe it is an indictment; the best example of gridlock I can think of is our budget shutdown but that's impossible in the UK because parliament selects the Prime Minister so there would never be an ideological standoff between the head of government and the legislative body.

 

[Poodlestrike]

It's likely part of what led to the hyper-partisanship as well. It's hard to justify a liberal vote to a lean-R district without showing them you got them something for it.

It absolutely is. And it's why the GOP rhetoric about government got harsher as well. People stopped seeing the upsides to expanded government spending in a real, personal, and immediate way.

 

[The Technomancer]

It's a pretty sad indictment of the American constitutional set-up that you're defending pork-barrel spending as a necessary tool to make things work. Nothing like low-level corruption to grease the wheels.

What really is the ideological issue with pork? Government spending is good, government spending that's spent directly on projects is good for communities, I suppose the argument against it is inefficiency, but man if fixing inefficiency in government is the task I can think of several larger areas I'd tackle

 

[Aaron Strife]

It's a pretty sad indictment of the American constitutional set-up that you're defending pork-barrel spending as a necessary tool to make things work. Nothing like low-level corruption to grease the wheels.

I mean, our constitution is over 200 years old. It's not equipped for the modern era.

I'm also not really against pork, there's far better examples of corruption.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

Mulvaney: It's White House policy Senate keeps focus on healthcare

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...-house-policy-that-nothing-gets-a-vote-before

According to Mulvaney, Trump wants the Senate to work on nothing but repealing Obamacare.

They just need 1 more vote. How they get there while McCain is in the hospital...who knows.

 

[Wilsongt]

Mulvaney actually claimed a shut down might be necessary to fix Washington back in May.

This White House isn't going to do shit to avoid a shut down.

Fuck Mulveney. Goddamn SC produces shitty Congress people.

 

[BlastProcessing]

It's a pretty sad indictment of the American constitutional set-up that you're defending pork-barrel spending as a necessary tool to make things work. Nothing like low-level corruption to grease the wheels.

Deal making and compromise aren't exactly what I would call low-level corruption. It's true that bad deals were made. But our system assumed that bad actors would come into power.

The problem is that voters weren't holding corrupt politicians responsible. This is because nobody participates in the primaries.

Primates are what we really need to fix. Chasing after earmarks or lobbyists is a waste of time.

 

[Dominican Power]

Anyone saw Jill Stein on MSNBC shilling for North Korea? lulz

 

[Suikoguy]

What really is the ideological issue with pork? Government spending is good, government spending that's spent directly on projects is good for communities, I suppose the argument against it is inefficiency, but man if fixing inefficiency in government is the task I can think of several larger areas I'd tackle

In many ways it's great, as the person from the district should know what would be a good thing to get money for. But it has the possibility of going towards something that has little to no benefit, with the possibility of straight corruption or unethical use, like giving a huge contract to a "friend". Conversely, in such a case, it could easily be used against the member who wanted it.

 

[Ogodei]

Anyone saw Jill Stein on MSNBC shilling for North Korea? lulz

Gotta keep that Tankie vote.

 

[tmarg]

They just need 1 more vote. How they get there while McCain is in the hospital...who knows.

McCain and Collins both sound like solid nos unless they start going through proper legislative channels, and it sounds like Murkowski might be a solid no either way.

And the fuckery thrown at McCain and Murkowski by Republicans in retaliation for their votes can't be helping their cause.

 

[Frank the Great]

Pork is not corruption. At all. I hope it comes back.

 

[B-Dubs]

It's a pretty sad indictment of the American constitutional set-up that you're defending pork-barrel spending as a necessary tool to make things work. Nothing like low-level corruption to grease the wheels.

Corruption? Do you ever get tired of having no idea what you're talking about?

 

[Armaros]

It's a pretty sad indictment of the American constitutional set-up that you're defending pork-barrel spending as a necessary tool to make things work. Nothing like low-level corruption to grease the wheels.

So obviously the UK doesn't make laws that put aside money to build factories and etc that provide jobs.

 

[mo60]

Trump's approval rating is underwater in Arizona, Georgia and Texas according to a new gallup poll.Also his approval rating is underwater in the blue wall states. His approval rating is slightly negative in iowa and ohio to.
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-s-base-sticks-him-except-south-n787856

 

[TheLaughingStock]

It's a pretty sad indictment of the American constitutional set-up that you're defending pork-barrel spending as a necessary tool to make things work. Nothing like low-level corruption to grease the wheels.

You have to get dirty to work successfully in gov't or make it in business in America: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/business/wells-fargo-unwanted-auto-insurance.html

 

[timetokill]

Patronage isn't a concept invented by American democracy. Come on.

 

[teiresias]

Corruption? Do you ever get tired of having no idea what you're talking about?

There should be no pork, term limits for Congress, and no Democratic Congressman older than 50, with the exception of Saint Sanders.

 

[Zolo]

Trump's approval rating is underwater in Arizona, Georgia and Texas according to a new gallup poll.Also his approval rating is underwater in the blue wall states. His approval rating is slightly negative in iowa and ohio to.
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-s-base-sticks-him-except-south-n787856

Also this image.

 

[sangreal]

They just need 1 more vote. How they get there while McCain is in the hospital...who knows.

get menendez to take a plea deal

but still, that one vote was only because the Senate wanted to punt it to a conference committee, not because 49 senators agreed to skinny repeal

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

wait people aren't seriously depending pork as a Good Thing instead of something that helps move an insanely broken system along right?

Also this image.

this is actually kind of fascinating and surprising

 

[Aaron Strife]

There should be no pork, term limits for Congress, and no Democratic Congressman older than 50, with the exception of Saint Sanders.

Note that these rules don't apply to Republicans of course, because there's no way anyone in America would vote for a Republican in the face of a pure Democrat.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Also this image.

Those are pretty awful numbers for deep, deep blood red states

 

[sangreal]

wait people aren't seriously depending pork as a Good Thing instead of something that helps move an insanely broken system along right?

What is wrong with Congress having a say in how departments spend their budget?

 

[NihonTiger90]

Trump's approval rating is underwater in Arizona, Georgia and Texas according to a new gallup poll.Also his approval rating is underwater in the blue wall states. His approval rating is slightly negative in iowa and ohio to.
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-s-base-sticks-him-except-south-n787856

The funniest thing that could happen in Ohio is if kicking Kasich under the bus and embracing Trump ends up backfiring on the state GOP and costs them everything.

The state legislature went hard Trump and essentially have been obstructing his proposals including trying to kill the Medicaid expansion over Kasich's objections.

Then his top surrogates kicked him under the bus and embraced Trump in the run up to the GOP primary.

Also this image.

So it's worth mentioning:

- The WV numbers are very likely contingent upon Trump and Co. bringing back the coal jobs (they can't) and throwing them a lifeline after having been left behind. Kentucky's going to be the same, to a lesser extent.

- The FL and GA numbers are surprising to me. TX, not so much, if only because there's probably a sizable portion of Texan conservatives who don't like the big city type of person he is.

- This is 6 months in and some of these numbers are already this bad. We haven't seen the outcome of anything related to the Russia investigation (while they may not care about Russia, a president who is covering up crimes might peel off everyone but his most die-hard core supporters over time), we've had a bunch of failures to get things done so far and weeks upon weeks of chaos. These numbers can and very likely will get worse if everything continues on in the same rolling chaotic mess it has been.

 

[The Technomancer]

wait people aren't seriously depending pork as a Good Thing instead of something that helps move an insanely broken system along right?

I mean it really depends on how one defines "pork" I suppose, but again I think very little government spending is bad unless its being directed towards lucrative contracts that enrich a few. That's a type of pork, sure

EDIT: The financial impact of most pork projects is, to my knowledge, so low on the national scale that worrying about budget impact isn't particularly a consideration

 

[Kusagari]

NH is so weird.

Why are they higher than TX, AZ and GA?

 

[Aaron Strife]

Trump is underwater in every Obama 08 state plus AZ/GA/TX, and only has plurality approval in Missouri (closest McCain state in 2008, little under 4,000 vote difference) and Mississippi.

Not that he'd lose all of them in reelection, but proof that the Obama-Trump coalition isn't really built to last.

 

[mo60]

The funniest thing that could happen in Ohio is if kicking Kasich under the bus and embracing Trump ends up backfiring on the state GOP and costs them everything.

The state legislature went hard Trump and essentially have been obstructing his proposals including trying to kill the Medicaid expansion over Kasich's objections.

Then his top surrogates kicked him under the bus and embraced Trump in the run up to the GOP primary.

Unless something crazy happens at this point it's likely the GOP will still win Iowa and Ohio on the presidential level in 2020.

 

[pigeon]

wait people aren't seriously depending pork as a Good Thing instead of something that helps move an insanely broken system along right?

The simple version of the argument is that optimal public policy is often not popular with a majority (otherwise it would be easy to pass).

One way to get optimal public policy passed despite its lack of popularity is to add measures that will individually be popular with specific constituencies, allowing the representatives of those constituencies to justify their votes (or, if you prefer, balance the injury done their constituents with a specific benefit) and thus allowing a majority to be built.

Those measures are likely to take the form of carveouts or earmarks, which are generally considered pork.

 

[Autodidact]

NH is so weird.

Why are they higher than TX, AZ and GA?

I mean, it was the closest New England state. (Trump won Maine's second district, but overall Hillary won Maine by more than she won New Hampshire.)

 

[Aaron Strife]

The simple version of the argument is that optimal public policy is often not popular with a majority (otherwise it would be easy to pass).

One way to get optimal public policy passed despite its lack of popularity is to add measures that will individually be popular with specific constituencies, allowing the representatives of those constituencies to justify their votes (or, if you prefer, balance the injury done their constituents with a specific benefit) and thus allowing a majority to be built.

Those measures are likely to take the form of carveouts or earmarks, which are generally considered pork.

Populist arguments against pork are just an extension of the "I hate every Congressperson except my own" conundrum.

Pork is useless except for pork in my district.

 

[kirblar]

So it's worth mentioning:

- The WV numbers are very likely contingent upon Trump and Co. bringing back the coal jobs (they can't) and throwing them a lifeline after having been left behind. Kentucky's going to be the same, to a lesser extent.

- The FL and GA numbers are surprising to me. TX, not so much, if only because there's probably a sizable portion of Texan conservatives who don't like the big city type of person he is.

- This is 6 months in and some of these numbers are already this bad. We haven't seen the outcome of anything related to the Russia investigation (while they may not care about Russia, a president who is covering up crimes might peel off everyone but his most die-hard core supporters over time), we've had a bunch of failures to get things done so far and weeks upon weeks of chaos. These numbers can and very likely will get worse if everything continues on in the same rolling chaotic mess it has been.

Those WV numbers will stick. The state has been bleeding people for over two generations.

This is good for 2012 because Trump's underwater in both the midwest "blue wall" that broke AND in the sunbelt.

 

[NihonTiger90]

Unless something crazy happens at this point it's likely the GOP will still win Iowa and Ohio on the presidential level in 2020.

Yeah, probably, but there's potential for chaos at the state level if they think things aren't getting better for them after having been promised so. Especially if they actually try to fuck over the insurance companies and start a new economic recession in the process.

 

[Valhelm]

Also this image.

holy shit Texas and Mississippi

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

god bless Mormons and hydroelectric power for making Idaho look slightly better than the neighbors

The simple version of the argument is that optimal public policy is often not popular with a majority (otherwise it would be easy to pass).

One way to get optimal public policy passed despite its lack of popularity is to add measures that will individually be popular with specific constituencies, allowing the representatives of those constituencies to justify their votes (or, if you prefer, balance the injury done their constituents with a specific benefit) and thus allowing a majority to be built.

Those measures are likely to take the form of carveouts or earmarks, which are generally considered pork.

I understand that, but that's largely a necessity of building a system where legislation has to pass numerous gates before being enacted

it might be true that pork is a necessity to run a bicameral legislature with a president effectively, but that only confirms Crab's point that the system is inherently broken if it requires pork to function in the first place.

 

[Autodidact]

Republican president can't break 60% in some of the most conservative states in the country.

Sad!

 

[NihonTiger90]

NH is so weird.

Why are they higher than TX, AZ and GA?

New Hampshire really, really loves their freedom.

No, that's not a joke. "Live Free or Die" is not just a state motto, it's a way of life. They have a ton of libertarian-leaning conservatives there.

Plus half of the rich conservative people who don't want to live in Boston or Massachusetts live in the southern part of the state and commute, like my uncle does.

 

[Aaron Strife]

holy shit Texas and Mississippi

Mississippi is a bit misleading. They have the highest black population in the country which gives Democrats a high floor, but the whites there are like 90% Republican which makes actually winning a statewide election almost impossible. Jim Hood (the current Attorney General) is the only Democrat to pull it off in a long time, and he's running for governor in 2019. If he can't do it, no one can.

 

[mo60]

holy shit Texas and Mississippi

I wouldn't be surprised if Mississippi flipped back to being a 10-13 point republican state in 2020. Just need to increase black turnout there. His approval rating among adults is terrible there right now according to Gallup.

 

[kirblar]

holy shit Texas and Mississippi

Texas you have to be careful with because "all adults" does not reflect "voters" there by a margin greater than in other states, if I'm recalling prior data correctly.

 

[The Technomancer]

god bless Mormons and hydroelectric power for making Idaho look slightly better than the neighbors

I understand that, but that's largely a necessity of building a system where legislation has to pass numerous gates before being enacted

it might be true that pork is a necessity to run a bicameral legislature with a president effectively, but that only confirms Crab's point that the system is inherently broken if it requires pork to function in the first place.

I mean is the problem that the legislation has to pass multiple gates?

 

[Kusagari]

New Hampshire really, really loves their freedom.

No, that's not a joke. "Live Free or Die" is not just a state motto, it's a way of life. They have a ton of libertarian-leaning conservatives there.

Plus half of the rich conservative people who don't want to live in Boston or Massachusetts live in the southern part of the state and commute, like my uncle does.

But they still ultimately voted for Hillary and Hassan in a rural wave election for the GOP. Trump won states with 5%+ where his approval is now apparently lower.

 

[pigeon]

I understand that, but that's largely a necessity of building a system where legislation has to pass numerous gates before being enacted

I mean, not really? Every system has veto points, even parliamentary systems. Most governments certainly have fewer, but the specific veto point in question here is individual legislator opinions, and those aren't different from system to system. The president has no relevance to pork.

The relevant difference here between America and the UK is that the UK has a much more powerful tradition of whipping since the prime minister is also the legislative leader. Basically, the individual legislators have much less effective independence because of party control. If what you're advocating for here is that we expel Democrats from the party and refuse them funding if they refuse to vote for stuff the establishment wants passed, I guess we can consider that, but it doesn't sound like the kind of thing you like.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I mean is the problem that the legislation has to pass multiple gates?

yeah, the increased and potentially ideologically diverse number of veto points relative to parliamentary systems means that it's more likely to reach a stop requires pork to resume the process. Especially since pork is brought up as a solution to the increasingly partisan divides in the legislature and as a way to increase bipartisan cooperation, the better solution would simply be to get rid of the potential for divided government.

 

[NoName999]

Don't know if this been posted: Congress Just Moved To Punish Trump For His Threat Against Senator Murkowski

The budding feud between President Trump and Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski is escalating quickly, with congress now looking into investigating the President for arm twisting that may have crossed the line.

It all began Tuesday when Sen. Murkowski joined Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME) in voting no on a procedural motion that allowed the Republicans’ TrumpCare bill no one has yet seen to move to floor for debate. The motion passed anyway, but two days later the President’s anger hasn’t.

First, he publicly shamed Sen. Murowski on Twitter yesterday hoping to pressure her into falling in line on subsequent votes. Sen. Murkowski responded defiantly in an interview that many called courageous.

And this morning, we learned that President Trump ordered his Interior Secretary, Ryan Zinke, to call Sen. Murkowski and threaten to withdraw federal support for massive infrastructure projects in her home state if she continued to oppose TrumpCare in the senate.

Now Congress is sending signals that it’s preparing to step into the fray – and not on behalf of the President. Arizona Rep. Raul Grijalva (D) of the House Natural Resource Committee is calling for a formal investigation into Secretary Zinke for his apparent threats to Sen Murkowski on Trump’s behalf.

Rep. Grijalva released a statement saying in part, “Running a department of the federal government means you serve the American people as a protector of their rights and freedoms. It doesn’t mean you serve the president as a bag man for his political vendettas.

“Threatening to punish your rivals as political blackmail is something we’d see from the Kremlin,” his statement continues. “Secretary Zinke’s willingness to deliver these threats speaks volumes about his ethical standards and demonstrates that Interior’s policy positions are up for political grabs, rather than based on science or the public interest.”

 

[kirblar]

Don't know if this been posted: Congress Just Moved To Punish Trump For His Threat Against Senator Murkowski

Using "Congress" is deceptive if it's just Dems on board so far.