It might. But this is just making official what we already knew.
(And also more proof that Lamar Alexander is terrible.)
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PoliGAF 2017 |OT6| Made this thread during Harvey because the ratings would be higher
- Thread starter Aaron Strife
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It might. But this is just making official what we already knew.
(And also more proof that Lamar Alexander is terrible.)
From your perspective, is it unreasonable to not want the Democrats to support a bill that increases immigration enforcement?
Graham-Cassidy is going to pass because we wrote the GOP off as incompetent and incapable of passing a bill, and none of the pressure that was piled on during the last attempt is being piled on during this attempt, because we have been convinced that they'll fail again and that they aren't competent or unified enough to pass it. We're basically counting on Rand Paul being the Senator to stop an ACA repeal (hahahahahaha) or McCain prioritizing order and senate rules over his best friend. Yeah. That's not good.
Following the "surprise" passage of an ACA repeal at the 11th hour, anger towards the GOP from the Democratic base will fuel major pressure on Schumer and Pelosi to not deal with Trump at all, causing the proposed DACA deal to fall through, leaving all of those dependent on it (like several of my friends) completely SOL.
Fenderputty
Banned
If it means all or nothing on DACA, yes. Ideally, No.
Guess that answers my question. Spinelessness to the end it is!
What if people on DACA don't think we should be trading immigration enforcement for DACA? Are they unreasonable if they say so?
I don't see how this indicates anything. Everyone knew this already and Congress people definitely did. Either way, the GOP owns shitty consequences moving forward.
Fenderputty
Banned
No, but they're taking nothing instead of something in this hypothetical. Which I mean, OK. This discussion between idealism and pragmatism isn't new, least of all here.
If the democrats were in any kinda position to get more of what they want right now, the protests to Pelosi would make more sense.
The choice is not between nothing and something. It's between getting one bad thing or trading it for a different bad thing.
Those protest are made up by people who benefit from the status quo. They want to derail any legislation to fix things because if anything passes it means that they will stop getting donations. They are the PETA of immigrant rights.
nature boy
Member
I'm pretty sure this "collapse" in negotiations is just a tactic to put pressure on those holdouts.
Hell yea this is the really good stuff.
This is insane. The people who held the protests are literally going to be deported if DACA falls through.
Not everybody who disagrees with you is getting paid by Soros.
Not disagreeing with you, but those people are clearly misguided.
nature boy
Member
DO IT
If you asked me I would just offer the Dream Act plus funding for the wall.
Trump will fight for that because he gets his big campaign promise, it gives Dreamers a path to citizenship, and most importantly, the wall isn't actually a meaningful policy concession because it already exists and/or is impossible to build.
Plus then when the Democrats get back in we can triumphantly knock down the wall. You can't triumphantly go to El Salvador and pick up an undocumented immigrant who was deported due to increased ICE enforcement. Mostly because they will probably be dead.
But unfortunately we decided the wall is the number one untradable thing, so.
Trump will fight for that because he gets his big campaign promise, it gives Dreamers a path to citizenship, and most importantly, the wall isn't actually a meaningful policy concession because it already exists and/or is impossible to build.
Plus then when the Democrats get back in we can triumphantly knock down the wall. You can't triumphantly go to El Salvador and pick up an undocumented immigrant who was deported due to increased ICE enforcement. Mostly because they will probably be dead.
But unfortunately we decided the wall is the number one untradable thing, so.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
I don't think this is fair or true. It's going to (allegedly) pass because the senate (allegedly) got the 1 vote they need, McCain's. Pressure has been applied. I don't think it's logical to expect nonstop pressure 24/7 after a bill has failed and the senate majority leader has moved to other issues. It's not even like the pressure disappeared 100%, it was kept up to a degree...
Think about it this way: for all the furor and energy on the anti-Trumpcare side, the ONLY reason the bill failed last time was due to McCain. Well now they (allegedly) have McCain, so I don't see any merit in blaming democrats or activists not applying enough pressure.
Fenderputty
Banned
All or nothing may not be an ideal phrasing of the choices, but neither is bad thing / different bad thing. One is objectively worse than the other.
I would argue that allowing the wall as a concession has symbolic meaning that can't be overlooked as well.
Maybe if we had a representative sample set of polling or data indicating how all DACA affected folks would feel, I'd buy that argument. IIRC, California is going to have extremely strong protection for DREAMers regardless of what happens with DACA (I believe they have declared themselves a sanctuary state, and will actively impede ICE), so I am skeptical of California DREAMers being unwilling to compromise, as they are the least likely to suffer the consequences of failure comparatively speaking. Not 100% sure on this, though.
Also, per Trump's(?) comments, the Pelosi-Schumer deal does include a pathway to citizenship in its' current form. My hunch is that they appealed to Trump's military boner and said "don't you want those who have served to have a way to become citizens???"
Normally I'd agree, but it usually takes significant and consistent screwing up before the GOP ends up owning it. Also, the last deal had all the changes take effect in 2021. Not sure about this one.
The people who would be affected by the first bad thing are literally the people saying they don't want to trade it for the second bad thing.
I understand the concern about symbolic meaning but I'm not really worried about it because the GOP don't want to build a wall either. Plus, again, the wall already exists. If Trump
wants to film a bunch of glamour shots of construction vehicles knocking down a wall that is already there in order to build a new wall with his name on it, I am not sure that's bad for us.
Uh well Alexander-Murray is gone.
What's there to be grumpy about? You either want this or you don't, you're not getting tons of hearings.. back out of it.
benicillin
Banned
It would be easy to go crazy if you try and keep up with whether or not the bill is maybe going to pass. We'd have better luck reading tea leaves than relying on Twitter speculation and who is smiling at any given point.
Played by who? Republicans did not want a three-month debt ceiling extension.
Even if it doesn't, the fact that there is no stabilization fix coming is going to cause further problems with the marketplace next year even if the ACA remains.
If that's their position then that's their position, but it's one that will end with them being deported.
"When the Democrats get back in"... if you have people protesting Pelosi and Schumer now, can you imagine the backlash from the base that will erupt if they announce they will agree to funding the wall after all? I mean, talk about validating 'both sides'!
I feel confident in saying that Trump fulfilling his biggest campaign promise with the help of Democrats would help him enormously in 2020, which would be very bad for us!
Fenderputty
Banned
That's kinda why we're arguing? I see that as short sighted considering the reality of what Pelsoi is dealing with.
The people protesting aren't speaking for everyone affected by DACA either. That in itself could be problematic for those who don't want the first bad thing, at all.
Symbolic meaning has nothing to do with actual intra-party support for the wall among the GOP though. Whether or not it's built, you've put your name down in support of it.
6 years later you're running for POTUS, all context has been removed because the general pop can't remember 5 minutes ago, and this gets brought up in debates. Would you rather your name in support of a wall or border security?
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Putting aside whether it's less harmful to build the wall or increase ICE funding, I'm certain people here would find it reprehensible if passing the Dream Act required putting aside funds to build the wall and that Democrats shouldn't compromise on that, so if the people who literally stand to benefit the most from that arrangement think increased ICE funding and the deportations that would follow that are not a price worth paying for their own security, getting mad at them for being unrealistic seems bad.
neurosisxeno
Member
John McCain is an American hero, and we should praise his years of service. And it's time for him to fucking go away.
Axios seems to think we'll see a vote next week, whether they have the votes to pass Trumpcare or not.
https://www.axios.com/senate-looks-to-start-voting-on-gop-health-plan-next-wednesday-2487208910.html
https://www.axios.com/senate-looks-to-start-voting-on-gop-health-plan-next-wednesday-2487208910.html
balladofwindfishes
Member
I'm not sure McConnell's career can take another failed vote. Not sure why he wants to try again, I guess he figures at the last minute the 5 or 6 hold out will flip? Ehh...
BoboBrazil
Member
They have to make Trump daddy happy and he wants them to keep at it.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
Hold on. DACA doesn't do nothing because the federal government does have authority over immigration. Trump just hasn't really tried to start testing his authority yet. If he really wanted to he could start his mass deportations and a national crisis.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Maybe he is genuinely passionate about taking healthcare away from tens of millions of people.
neurosisxeno
Member
It's like viagra mixed with ecstasy for him and Paul Ryan.
What makes you think that? If it were Ryan, I'd think that - but in the Senate. I'm inclined to think another failed vote just lets him point the finger at Murkowski and Collins and shrug.
It's humiliating, sure. But I'm not sure McConnell is capable of feeling shame.
Fenderputty
Banned
If future presidential ticket Pigeon/Benji told me that they approved the wall funding because the vote itself was meaningless and hurt less people, I would believe them. We just had an election where pasts were brought up though. Did context matter in any of these debates we had here during the primary? lol
Aaron Strife
Banned
Fox News poll of Virginia
Ralph Northam 42
Ed Gillespie 38
Among the likely voter subset, it's 42-41.
Ralph Northam 42
Ed Gillespie 38
Among the likely voter subset, it's 42-41.
Please fail
The special election primary is Tuesday in Bama, so Strange is out until Wednesday.
I also have this exact same tv lol. Yes, it's pretty good. I just use it for my bedroom
nature boy
Member
I think Cheeto is more concerned with tax cuts than healthcare, TBH.
This is just stupid Republicans being stubborn.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Why is this race so close.
Autodidact
Banned
Virginia still purplish blue trending toward solid blue.
High Republican floor, similar to Democrats in Alabama/Mississippi.
Fenderputty
Banned
The VP debate would just be Benji trolling all of the US while giving us an encyclopedic history lesson only 15% of the population will understand. He's your symbolic bone to toss them young libertarians and pot fiends.
High undecideds are the norm at this stage of a VA race: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_gubernatorial_election,_2013
We have off-year elections, a lot of people still aren't paying attention.
BoboBrazil
Member
Nope he keeps shitting on them and tweeting about them passing health care again since the last time it failed. Talking about how they need to end the filibuster too.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
I'm worried for Puerto Rico.
New update puts the storm at 175mph, which is on the very high end of Hurricane Strength.
With Republicans in control of government led by an incompetent buffoon, combined with a perilous economic situation in PR, things could get really ugly.
They are going to need help, or go bankrupt.
I wish them luck, they are probably going to need it.
New update puts the storm at 175mph, which is on the very high end of Hurricane Strength.
With Republicans in control of government led by an incompetent buffoon, combined with a perilous economic situation in PR, things could get really ugly.
They are going to need help, or go bankrupt.
I wish them luck, they are probably going to need it.
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