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PoliGAF 2017 |OT6| Made this thread during Harvey because the ratings would be higher

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S

shinra-bansho

Member
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
Ad nauseum.

Working families = white people.
Socialised = giving money to black and brown people.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Chained Prometheus said:
On the contrary. Popularity has shit to do with it; this is a chance for Graham and Cassidy to go on the attack by using Bernie's ideas as a scapegoat and to use the debate as something to try and woo McCain over to vote for a Yes by arguing that the debate was a means of talking over the GC bill.
Click to expand...

This is a very weird idea of what McCain wants. He's been a senator for thirty years or so? You think Lindsay Graham is going to fool him into thinking that a CNN debate is regular order?
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Chained Prometheus said:
On the contrary. Popularity has shit to do with it; this is a chance for Graham and Cassidy to go on the attack by using Bernie's ideas as a scapegoat and to use the debate as something to try and woo McCain over to vote for a Yes by arguing that the debate was a means of talking over the GC bill.
Click to expand...

As if Bernie has never had to deal with attacks on his health care policy before, or McCain doesn't know of Bernie's positions.
 
K

kirblar

Member
pigeon said:
My biggest concern is actually about how CNN chooses to frame the discussion. As we've seen in the last year, that can actually have a pretty big impact.
Click to expand...
Yup and
shinra-bansho said:
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
Ad nauseum.

Working families = white people.
Socialised = giving money to black and brown people.
Click to expand...
Yup

This is the problem. This is why having the "debate" is a problem.
 
G

Greigor The Fellhand

Member
shinra-bansho said:
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
Ad nauseum.

Working families = white people.
Socialised = giving money to black and brown people.
Click to expand...

I'd say

Working Families = People that are so fucking loaded they dont really work.

socialized = Giving money to minorities and poor people to lazy to pull themselves up
 
I

iavi

Member
shinra-bansho said:
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
Ad nauseum.

Working families = white people.
Socialised = giving money to black and brown people.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what's going to happen
 
T

Teggy

Member
This was part of Roy Moore’s opening statements in tonight’s debate. Yikes!
DKSFgV9XUAA-2DQ
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
pigeon said:
My biggest concern is actually about how CNN chooses to frame the discussion. As we've seen in the last year, that can actually have a pretty big impact.
Click to expand...

It'll be 'both sides had some good ideas and some bad ones' but they were going to do this regardless of whether the debate happened or not. By not doing it, you just give Graham and Cassidy more air, sort of like how Clinton avoided taking on Trump and Sanders head-to-head for fear of making them both seem equivalent in stature to her, when it really just gave them all the limelight and the let them dominate the narrative.
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
PBY said:
If this is what scares you then we'll never make any progress.
Click to expand...
You'll never make any progress, because America is racist? I wouldn't go that far. You can probably make progress despite America's racism. It just won't be a government run health care system any time soon.
 
K

kirblar

Member
shinra-bansho said:
You'll never make any progress, because America is racist? I wouldn't go that far. You can probably make progress despite America's racism. It just won't be a government run health care system any time soon.
Click to expand...
When you do get the chance to make progress you have to be very aware that

a) you'll be out of office in two years
b) the GOP does not operate in good faith and won't fix your mistakes.

So go big, but go smart, because you won't get a second chance to fix it after.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
shinra-bansho said:
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
Ad nauseum.

Working families = white people.
Socialised = giving money to black and brown people.
Click to expand...

This is true whatever the Democrat's plans are. At this point, it makes no difference what the Democratic plan actually is. Public option? 'tax working families socialised medicine blah'. Singlepayer? 'tax working families socialised medicine blah'. They can't make one worse than the other because they'll use exactly the same rhetoric for both. One of the few good things about the Republican rampage into insanity is that it robbed them of the ability to distinguish between the things they oppose, since everything is MAXIMUM BADNESS all the time. This means Democrats can pretty safely push for their most favoured option instead of the option most immune to opposition framing, since opposition framing is now identical for all options.

If you're worried about them running on 'tax working families socialised medicine blah' you can't even run on the public option, because that's what they'll say about that, too. Obama could personally execute a coup d'etat in order to repeal Obamacare himself in favour of a sell-your-dog-for-healthcare scheme and that'd be socialised medicine.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Democrats actually get someone who voters like and trust proven by data, and instead of being happy about it, you want to hide him away. It's so damn idiotic.

Oh, but I guess we just can't have him talking about health care? Is that it? He talks about single payer every single time he opens his mouth about anything for the past 50 years! You guys even rightly criticize him for being overly focused on it to the detriment of other issues.

How the hell else did he become popular if talking about single payer is political suicide? Should we be worried that people that just know of him from things like SNL might finally realize how bad it is once they tune to watch this incredibly wonky CNN debate.
 
P

PBY

Banned
thepotatoman said:
Democrats actually get someone who voters like and trust proven by data, and instead of being happy about it, you want to hide him away. It's so damn idiotic.

Oh, but I guess we just can't have him talking about health care? Is that it? He talks about single payer every single time he opens his mouth about anything for the past 50 years! You guys even rightly criticize him for being overly focused on it to the detriment of other issues.

How the hell else did he become popular if talking about single payer is political suicide? Should we be worried that people that just know of him from things like SNL might finally realize how bad it is once they tune to watch this incredibly wonky CNN debate.
Click to expand...
It doesn't fucking make any sense.
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
pigeon said:
I think it's pretty obvious why the FBI didn't tell them. But I'm not sure Grassley really wants to hear the answer....
Click to expand...

jGNxco9.png
Click to expand...

Is this from his obfuscating stupidity (to get something out in the open cuz he's a white hat), regular old stupidity (cuz yeah, Grassley), or he's been threatened (black hat)? Make your bets, folks!

Randolph Freelander said:
https://mobile.twitter.com/NBCNightlyNews/status/910986376203636736

Broken clock and everything, but...
Click to expand...

This will go well with the base though. "NO HE IZZNT!"
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
thepotatoman said:
Democrats actually get someone who voters like and trust proven by data, and instead of being happy about it, you want to hide him away. It's so damn idiotic.

Oh, but I guess we just can't have him talking about health care? Is that it? He talks about single payer every single time he opens his mouth about anything for the past 50 years! You guys even rightly criticize him for being overly focused on it to the detriment of other issues.

How the hell else did he become popular if talking about single payer is political suicide? Should we be worried that people that just know of him from things like SNL might finally realize how bad it is once they tune to watch this incredibly wonky CNN debate.
Click to expand...

I don't want to "hide him away."

I don't trust his ability to debate based on what I've seen in the past few years, and I think he'll do more harm than good here.
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
I hardly like Bernie but don't y'all want to win? People seem to like him. So let's try going with it.
 
sazzy

sazzy

Member
is it likely that the 3000 Facebook ads, or a sample of them, will be released to the public or journalists? 3000 ads are a LOT of ads...
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
I don't want to hide bernie. I'm just concerned about the timing. The actual debate isn't my issue. I would also like Bernie to speak more broadly than just single payer, but that's whatever I guess.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
Who cares.

Lisa Murkowski isn't going to decide her vote based on what Bernie Sanders says on TV. And I doubt he'll talking only about Medicare For All (though he might, and who cares).

You guys freak out too much when Bernie does stuff like this.
 
K

kirblar

Member
shinra-bansho said:
What's the costing on a public option?

The eventual model for US health care will probably end up more Swiss than British anyway.
Click to expand...
https://www.cbo.gov/budget-options/2013/44890
37 billion over 10 years as of 11/2013.
In the Congressional Budget Office's estimation, premiums for the public plan would be between 7 percent and 8 percent lower, on average, during the 2016–2023 period than premiums for private plans offered in the exchanges—mainly because the public plan's payment rates for providers would generally be lower than those of private plans. In addition, the public plan would be likely to have lower administrative costs than private plans.
Click to expand...
sphagnum said:
It already happened with Obamacare so why be afraid of it? Because this time it's actually socialistic? Do you think they even know the difference or care?
Click to expand...
The fact that they can't differentiate between legitimately good ideas and actual bad ones means you have to self-police yourselves because otherwise your side will push the stupid ideas through if they're only relying on the enemy to stop them.

See: Obamacare repeal nearly succeeding the moment the GOP actually has power.
 
M

Maengun1

Member
My concern on the debate is pretty simple.

I'm not particularly worried about Bernie going off script or getting trapped in an irrelevant single payer discussion. I'm not worried about Graham and Cassidy suddenly being master debaters. I don't think any of that matters. I don't think a ton of the country is likely to tune in, and even if they did, and even if the debate goes as poorly as possible, I don't think that come Tuesday morning 90% of the country will be in favor of ACA repeal. The bill is terrible and everyone hates it. Republican voters don't even like it. Several of the republicans senators who are on record as voting for LITERALLY ANY repeal, have said --PUBLICLY-- that this bill is terrible.

What worries me is this whole sham is just a shiny object for McConnell and Graham to wave in McCain's face all "see a policy debate! a nationally televised hearing! regular order!!!"

I don't know if that will work or not, but it's probably the best play they have. And once they bring it up, it's not like dems can say no? "They refused a debate" looks worse than the worst possible debate. I certainly don't think it makes McCain LESS likely to support the bill. I don't think he cares what's actually in the bill either tbh. For the time being the daily whims of one 85yo, grumpy, unpredictable old man with terminal cancer is basically deciding the fate of the whole country.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
kirblar said:
The fact that they can't differentiate between legitimately good ideas and actual bad ones means you have to self-police yourselves because otherwise your side will push the stupid ideas through if they're only relying on the enemy to stop them.
Click to expand...

If this is the case, the next time just cut the concern trolling bullshit with 'oh, this is terrible because Republicans will say it is bad!' and just admit that you don't give a shit what Republicans think, you just want an excuse to handwave a policy away without having to admit you personally don't like it. Craven expediency posing as political pragmatism.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Maengun1 said:
My concern on the debate is pretty simple.

I'm not particularly worried about Bernie going off script or getting trapped in an irrelevant single payer discussion. I'm not worried about Graham and Cassidy suddenly being master debaters. I don't think any of that matters. I don't think a ton of the country is likely to tune in, and even if they did, and even if the debate goes as poorly as possible, I don't think that come Tuesday morning 90% of the country will be in favor of ACA repeal. The bill is terrible and everyone hates it. Republican voters don't even like it. Several of the republicans senators who are on record as voting for LITERALLY ANY repeal, have said --PUBLICLY-- that this bill is terrible.

What worries me is this whole sham is just a shiny object for McConnell and Graham to wave in McCain's face all "see a policy debate! a nationally televised hearing! regular order!!!"

I don't know if that will work or not, but it's probably the best play they have. And once they bring it up, it's not like dems can say no? "They refused a debate" looks worse than the worst possible debate. I certainly don't think it makes McCain LESS likely to support the bill. I don't think he cares what's actually in the bill either tbh. For the time being the daily whims of one 85yo, grumpy, unpredictable old man with terminal cancer is basically deciding the fate of the whole country.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure the mental callous I was forced to develop to stay sane w/ the Iraq war vote is the reason this shit doesn't phase me.

McCain's regular order demand is simple: do it like the Dems did Obamacare. And no one in the GOP wants that because the bill's nasty and hurts them the more time it spends in the limelight.

Yes, we have to rely on McCain. No, this isn't pleasant. But there's nothing you or I can actually do about that, so literally just do anything else.
 
C

Chained Prometheus

Member
Maengun1 said:
My concern on the debate is pretty simple.

I'm not particularly worried about Bernie going off script or getting trapped in an irrelevant single payer discussion. I'm not worried about Graham and Cassidy suddenly being master debaters. I don't think any of that matters. I don't think a ton of the country is likely to tune in, and even if they did, and even if the debate goes as poorly as possible, I don't think that come Tuesday morning 90% of the country will be in favor of ACA repeal. The bill is terrible and everyone hates it. Republican voters don't even like it. Several of the republicans senators who are on record as voting for LITERALLY ANY repeal, have said --PUBLICLY-- that this bill is terrible.

What worries me is this whole sham is just a shiny object for McConnell and Graham to wave in McCain's face all "see a policy debate! a nationally televised hearing! regular order!!!"

I don't know if that will work or not, but it's probably the best play they have. And once they bring it up, it's not like dems can say no? "They refused a debate" looks worse than the worst possible debate. I certainly don't think it makes McCain LESS likely to support the bill. I don't think he cares what's actually in the bill either tbh. For the time being the daily whims of one 85yo, grumpy, unpredictable old man with terminal cancer is basically deciding the fate of the whole country.
Click to expand...

This was what I was trying to say earlier. It's not about McCain reacting to anything Bernie says; it's that the debate itself can be used by the GOP as a thin excuse to say "Hey look, we talked about the bill with the other party! Now will you vote yes, please?"

Granted, I don't know that it'd ever actually work. But it's something that absolutely worries me.
 
I

ivajz

Member
Seems like McCain is upset!

Maggie Haberman‏Verified account @maggieNYT

Maggie Haberman Retweeted Manu Raju
Have also heard this >Maggie Haberman added,

Manu RajuVerified account @mkraju
McCain angry Grassley cited past campaign in letter to FBI, per @JohnKingCNN http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/21/politics/chuck-grassley-fbi-letter/index.html …


Maggie Haberman‏Verified account
@maggieNYT
Following
More
Maggie Haberman Retweeted Manu Raju
It's also been seen by some around McCain as shifting blame to FBIMaggie Haberman added,

Manu RajuVerified account @mkraju
McCain angry Grassley cited past campaign in letter to FBI, per @JohnKingCNN http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/21/politics/chuck-grassley-fbi-letter/index.html …
4:30 PM - 21 Sep 2017
Click to expand...

https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/911009654041403429
 
T

teiresias

Member
Why should the FBI have to "inform" the campaign of anything when high ranking members of the damn campaign were conversing with Russians? What is this stupid lunacy?
 
K

kirblar

Member
Crab said:
If this is the case, the next time just cut the concern trolling bullshit with 'oh, this is terrible because Republicans will say it is bad!' and just admit that you don't give a shit what Republicans think, you just want an excuse to handwave a policy away without having to admit you personally don't like it. Craven expediency posing as political pragmatism.
Click to expand...
You have no place to lecture people on concern trolling.

The GOP will always argue it's bad/terrible/etc. The key is to not let them ever be right.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Fenderputty said:
I don't want to hide bernie. I'm just concerned about the timing. The actual debate isn't my issue. I would also like Bernie to speak more broadly than just single payer, but that's whatever I guess.
Click to expand...

Timing seems the best possible to me.

Thing you have to worry about is people who don't think about the negatives until it gets close to becoming reality. Single payer would be way off in the future, while repeal is one week away. Attacks on repeal are certain to land much harder than attacks on single payer.

That's one of the benefits of being the minority party. You get to be judged on the best aspects while the other side gets judged on the worst aspects. It's one of the biggest reasons we're in this dumb cycle of party control switching every 2 years.
 
B

Blader

Member
Dan on PSA had an interesting theory about McCain today, speculating that McCain is probably genuinely undecided but leaning toward no, and Graham asked him, even if he is a no, to keep quiet about it until it comes time to vote so Graham can have the space to flip other Rs. If McCain comes out in opposition to the bill days before the vote, then it's over. That would explain why he's been insisting over and over on wanting a bill to go through 'regular order', saying he's a no without ever actually using the word no. He's doing his friend a favor, but not in voting for the bill, just in giving him the space to convince others not to vote no.

At least I hope that's the case.

Frank the Great said:
The bill is garbage and already super unpopular. This only gives G&C a chance to rehabilitate it.

Also, Republicans only win minds on healthcare when bashing socialist medicine. This gives them the perfect opportunity to do that.

It's just so stupid.
Click to expand...

Personally, I would've rather Bernie, et al. wait until after the 30th before introducing the MFA bill. But, now it's out there, so any Republican defense of Graham-Cassidy is going to include an attack on single-payer. They're doing it already! You have senators proposing amendments to the bill that will explicitly prohibit states from using any funds allocated by Graham-Cassy to set up their own single-payer systems. So it's already part of the conversation; can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Teggy said:
This was part of Roy Moore's opening statements in tonight's debate. Yikes!
DKSFgV9XUAA-2DQ
Click to expand...

Wasn't this guy in Dr. Strangelove?
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
shinra-bansho said:
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
"You want to raise taxes on working families to pay for your socialised medicine.'
Ad nauseum.

Working families = white people.
Socialised = giving money to black and brown people.
Click to expand...
Then show people their taxes won't raise.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Spoiled Milk said:
Then show people their taxes won't raise.
Click to expand...
Welcome to mainstream Dem politics for the past 2+ decades.

At a local level, the private schools (for white people) vs public schools (for everyone else) thing ties directly into the whole "government is bad" thing that's been going on in the GOP post- Southern Strategy/Reagan.
 
V

Vimes

Member
chadskin said:
https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/910999971801042944

Lol. I wonder if that's their new defense. "The FBI didn't tell us!!"
Click to expand...

This is not the first time they've used the "the system isn't stopping Trump from committing stupid crimes" angle. As if he's a 6 year old that doesn't know better.

If I recall correctly the last time this was trotted out was on Comey during his hearing, re: being asked to the Russia investigation go away, so I wonder if some more shit is about to hit the fan.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Vimes said:
This is not the first time they've used the "the system isn't stopping Trump from committing stupid crimes" angle. As if he's a 6 year old that doesn't know better.

If I recall correctly the last time this was trotted out was on Comey during his hearing, re: being asked to the Russia investigation go away, so I wonder if some more shit is about to hit the fan.
Click to expand...

Well, we did just get a roundabout confirmation that Mueller is directly investigating Trump at this point.
 
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