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PoliGAF 2017 |OT6| Made this thread during Harvey because the ratings would be higher

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A

aspiegamer

Member
Yeah... that's going to turn into a debate about Bernie's half-baked primary-baiting purity-testing health care bill and not the actual thing coming up for a vote. You'd think he would have already noticed that this is partially getting rushed in response to his proposal and would just shut the hell up for awhile. And yes I already know that shutting up is not a Sanders "thing."

This could have been easy! Having two guys on stage to try to defend the indefensible shouldn't be hard to sit across from and watch, but, hey, here we are.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
Unless the moderator calls out lies, what's the point? G and C are just going to lie their asses off anyway, probably even contradicting the actual text of the bill. It's not in good faith.
 
D

Diablos

Member
AntraxSuicide said:
Unless the moderator calls out lies, what's the point? G and C are just going to lie their asses off anyway, probably even contradicting the actual text of the bill. It's not in good faith.
Click to expand...
Yep. Dems walked into a trap

I think this makes GC more likely.

Don’t count on CNN to save the day. Bernie will lecture while he overshadows Amy Klobouchar and Graham/Cassidy will just lie to the country and sell the bill to the US
 
B

Blader

Member
AntraxSuicide said:
Unless the moderator calls out lies, what's the point? G and C are just going to lie their asses off anyway, probably even contradicting the actual text of the bill. It's not in good faith.
Click to expand...
How is that any different from the status quo?

Graham and Cassidy can't even put an adequate one-sided response to a Jimmy Kimmel monologue, and you guys are expecting them to steamroll through a town hall?
 
A

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Moderators calling out lies had zero effect last year, republican voters know their lying, they just dont care, or at least dont care enough to stay home on election day.
 
A

Apharmd

Member
Teggy said:
This was part of Roy Moore’s opening statements in tonight’s debate. Yikes!
DKSFgV9XUAA-2DQ
Click to expand...
Wow.

Well, fuck him too. Fuckface piece of shit. Glad at least he's honest about non-straight white males being a fuckin' plague on the country.
 
S

Sciz

Member
They can lie all they want, but it's been CBO numbers and McCain being a crotchety old bastard who remembers when the Senate had any dignity that sank the prior bills, and this isn't going to move the needle on either of those fronts. It's still mathematically a piece of garbage and McCain isn't senile enough to think that this carnival sideshow qualifies as regular order when McConnell is trying to rush the thing through without even getting a proper CBO score in the first place.
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
aspiegamer said:
Yeah... that's going to turn into a debate about Bernie's half-baked primary-baiting purity-testing health care bill and not the actual thing coming up for a vote. You'd think he would have already noticed that this is partially getting rushed in response to his proposal and would just shut the hell up for awhile. And yes I already know that shutting up is not a Sanders "thing."

This could have been easy! Having two guys on stage to try to defend the indefensible shouldn't be hard to sit across from and watch, but, hey, here we are.
Click to expand...
Literally every potential candidate for 2020 contributed in writing it. Like half the democrats in the senate cosponsored it. How is asking nearly two dozen people for their input and getting people on the same page a purity test
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Plinko said:
PPP: 24% of people approve of Graham-Cassidy, only 47% of Trump voters.

Also confirmed that they're trying to bribe Murkowski, and Graham and Cassidy both deny. I don't believe them for a second.

Hoping she holds firm.
Click to expand...
BCRA had plenty of carveouts for Alaska and it didn't do anything to win Murkowski's support.
 
R

royalan

Member
Roy Moore is a former judge.

The idea that people may have felt the weight of his bigotry given power makes my stomach turn.

This country is irredeemable.
 
K

kirblar

Member
So Bannon, after being "fired", just traveled to China and well.... https://www.ft.com/content/5cdedd84-9f0c-11e7-8cd4-932067fbf946

Steve Bannon flew to Beijing last week for a secret meeting with the second most powerful Chinese Communist party official, less than a month after the former chief White House strategist declared that America was at “economic war with China”.

According to one person in China familiar with the situation, Mr Bannon travelled to Beijing to meet Wang Qishan, the head of the Chinese Communist party’s anti-corruption campaign. The meeting occurred at Zhongnanhai, the Chinese leadership compound, after Mr Bannon had visited Hong Kong to give a closed-door speech at a big investor conference hosted by CLSA, a Chinese state-owned brokerage and investment group.
Click to expand...
 
D

DTC

Member
For those of you concerned about Trump's approvals going up, look at the PPP poll. 16% of Democrats approve of Trump. Trump's down 38-59 among independents, which is what matters in elections.

Presumably some democrats like Trump after the DACA and Pelosi/Schumer deal. Probably will be shortlived.

Although this poll has 43-47 Trump vs Clinton and... 42% democrats to 33% republicans? Did some independents switch to the democrat party?
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
DTC said:
For those of you concerned about Trump's approvals going up, look at the PPP poll. 16% of Democrats approve of Trump. Trump's down 38-59 among independents, which is what matters in elections.

Presumably some democrats like Trump after the DACA and Pelosi/Schumer deal. Probably will be shortlived.

Although this poll has 43-47 Trump vs Clinton and... 42% democrats to 33% republicans? Did some independents switch to the democrat party?
Click to expand...

Members of the GOP are probably moving back into being independents. We saw the same movement under W, when members of the party are embarrassed they don't identify as such--but they still vote R.
 
D

DTC

Member
B-Dubs said:
Members of the GOP are probably moving back into being independents. We saw the same movement under W, when members of the party are embarrassed they don't identify as such--but they still vote R.
Click to expand...

42% democrats seems awfully high though... I only remember the number being as high as like 38%, even taking into account that dems don't turnout as high as repubs.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
Roy Moore is definitely an opportunity for a pickup. He's not just a perniciously vile conservative, but he's the kind of person who needs to let you *know* just how vile he is. It's bound to galvanize the opposition, because it's not like Alabama conservatives have any low-hanging fruit for the party.
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
VendettaRed07 said:
Literally every potential candidate for 2020 contributed in writing it. Like half the democrats in the senate cosponsored it. How is asking nearly two dozen people for their input and getting people on the same page a purity test
Click to expand...
Didn't you kind of answer your own question. Not necessarily that it's a purity test set up by High Sparrow St Bernard mind you. But it was always going to ve treated like a purity test and that's why all the 2020 hopefuls signed up and injected their own influence.

Gillibrand plays the Game the best though.
https://nyti.ms/2x1Ctr0
Ready for Gillary.
 
R

Randolph Freelander

Member
Ogodei said:
Roy Moore is definitely an opportunity for a pickup. He's not just a perniciously vile conservative, but he's the kind of person who needs to let you *know* just how vile he is. It's bound to galvanize the opposition, because it's not like Alabama conservatives have any low-hanging fruit for the party.
Click to expand...

Alabama was nearly R+30 in 2016. If Moore wins the primary, he'll be in the Senate.

tCYvrFw.png
 
V

VendettaRed07

Member
shinra-bansho said:
Didn't you kind of answer your own question. Not necessarily that it's a purity test set up by High Sparrow St Bernard mind you. But it was always going to ve treated like a purity test and that's why all the 2020 hopefuls signed up and injected their own influence.

Gillibrand plays the Game the best though.
https://nyti.ms/2x1Ctr0
Ready for Gillary.
Click to expand...
I mean I don't think I did. It looks nothing like what he proposed last year. He significantly watered down his own plans and asked for other Senators input. I don't see how it's a purity test if he trashed his old plan and worked with more than a dozen people on what would be a good plan for the party to campaign on.

I also don't get why there's seemingly a suggestion that what's there isn't what they legitimately believe is the way to go either. They were all there and signed off on it. It's just as much Gillarycare and Harriscare as it is Berniecare.
 
R

Randolph Freelander

Member
KirbYuuYuu said:
So 24 percent is the ceiling for Republican Health Care
Click to expand...

But here's the thing though

Republicans aren't against it.

Among Rs

ACA Approval: 24% (67% disapprove, 9% not sure)
Generic Repeal Approval: 64% (34% keep and fix)
Graham-Cassidy Approval: 47% (32% not sure, just 21% disapprove)
If member of congress voted for G-C: 23% less likely to support, 38% more likely, 28% no difference, 11% not sure

Republicans can absolutely get away with voting for this. Most of them have no chance of losing to a Democrat in 2018, only another, crazier Republican in a primary.
 
K

kirblar

Member
VendettaRed07 said:
I mean I don't think I did. It looks nothing like what he proposed last year. He significantly watered down his own plans and asked for other Senators input. I don't see how it's a purity test if he trashed his old plan and worked with more than a dozen people on what would be a good plan for the party to campaign on.

I also don't get why there's seemingly a suggestion that what's there isn't what they legitimately believe is the way to go either. They were all there and signed off on it. It's just as much Gillarycare and Harriscare as it is Berniecare.
Click to expand...
Gillibrand literally said it was aspirational on PSA ;)

Also Franken on facebook (via Shinra's NYT article.)
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
Diablos said:
Yep. Dems walked into a trap

I think this makes GC more likely.

Don’t count on CNN to save the day. Bernie will lecture while he overshadows Amy Klobouchar and Graham/Cassidy will just lie to the country and sell the bill to the US
Click to expand...

Blader said:
How is that any different from the status quo?

Graham and Cassidy can't even put an adequate one-sided response to a Jimmy Kimmel monologue, and you guys are expecting them to steamroll through a town hall?
Click to expand...

woah woah woah, hold up y'all. I didn't mean that post to imply that this thing was going to hurt us. It won't. Most people won't even watch it. My post was more like "don't Sanders/Klobuchar + the few people who watch have better plans?"

This thing won't do anything, in either direction. It's an irrelevant event.
 
S

shinra-bansho

Member
VendettaRed07 said:
I don't see how it's a purity test...
Click to expand...
How can you not see how it's a purity test?
Again, this may or may not have been in intent, that's irrelevant.

But it has clearly been made into something that will affect viability as a candidate, which is why all the hopefuls signed up.

It is like the picture in the dictionary next to purity test. It's the new thing [straight white men] will point to instead of gay marriage and say when did you support this.
 
K

KirbYuuYuu

Member
shinra-bansho said:
How can you not see how it's a purity test?
Again, this may or may not have been in intent, that's irrelevant.

But it has clearly been made into something that will affect viability as a candidate, which is why all the hopefuls signed up.

It is like the picture in the dictionary next to purity test. It's the new thing [straight white men] will point to instead of gay marriage and say when did you support this.
Click to expand...

So much like when they were looking for someone to beat Jack Johnson, they're looking for their new "Great White Hope"
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Randolph Freelander said:
It is 100% unwinnable. Face reality. Invest in races that are actually plausible.
Click to expand...
So you didn't look up Scott Brown

Enjoy your not senate majority then. There aren't enough seats that pass your Trump win rate bar chart test to take the majority (which apparently means they're impossible to win)

If the GOP can win a senate seat in Mass (with a similar 2008 Obama win percent as Trump for Alabama), I don't see why it's impossible at all. Clearly Joe Biden doesn't think it's impossible, either.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
FWIW I'm not convinced that the debate is necessarily a bad idea. There's a reason every single previous Republican repeal effort has tried to run as fast and as quiet as they can; the more people find out about them, the less popular they get. Graham and Cassidy will undoubtedly lie through their teeth about what changes, but that 24% approval rating is the best they can expect to have; people don't like their healthcare being mucked around to begin with, and just hearing the arguments against is probably gonna shrink that 24% by at least a little.

That said, Sanders is... uh, not the guy I would pick for this. He's got incredible message discipline but can't really debate all that well, from what I've seen. Gillibrand would be my top pick here.
 
R

RaidenZR

Member
I don't think McCain is a big mystery.

I feel like there's no way Graham doesn't know McCain's vote already. If his vote is nay, and he comes and says it outright then it starts killing the bill's chances for a vote earlier than they'd like. Plus, others on the fence don't have to put their neck on the line if that happened, McCain takes the heat alone for tanking it again, and that doesn't seem likely.

McCain yammering a call for normal order obfuscates his position enough to give Graham the space and time to try to coral some more votes. Like any wingman would do...
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
RaidenZR said:
I don't think McCain is a big mystery.

I feel like there's no way Graham doesn't know McCain's vote already. If his vote is nay, and he comes and says it outright then it starts killing the bill's chances for a vote earlier than they'd like. Plus, others on the fence don't have to put their neck on the line if that happened, McCain takes the heat alone for tanking it again, and that doesn't seem likely.

McCain yammering a call for normal order obfuscates his position enough to give Graham the space and time to try to coral some more votes. Like any wingman would do...
Click to expand...
McCain is the only vote he needs to get (other than maybe Rand Paul, who will fold if they let him frown when he votes)

There's no trick or scheme. There never is.
 
B

Blader

Member
Poodlestrike said:
That said, Sanders is... uh, not the guy I would pick for this. He's got incredible message discipline but can't really debate all that well, from what I've seen. Gillibrand would be my top pick here.
Click to expand...

This is why I'm interested in Klobuchar being there.

balladofwindfishes said:
Look up Scott Brown, 2010

Stop it. Midterms can be unpredictable and wacky. Believing a race is 100% unwinnable, even in the face of a poor Republican candidate and a very electable Democrat is pointless.
Click to expand...

I don't really think Scott Brown is a comparable example. Massachusetts is much more amenable to electing Republicans than Alabama is to electing Democrats.
 
B

balladofwindfishes

Member
Blader said:
This is why I'm interested in Klobuchar being there.



I don't really think Scott Brown is a comparable example. Massachusetts is much more amenable to electing Republicans than Alabama is to electing Democrats.
Click to expand...
This seat hasn't had a Democrat since the late 90s

Brown's seat hadn't been Republican since the 40s
 
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