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PoliGAF 2017 |OT6| Made this thread during Harvey because the ratings would be higher

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pigeon

Banned
I think capability is also probably an issue. The effort would require exponentially more troops than Trump wants to send in, and to sustain those levels for decades. Is our military really able to occupy a country not just for that long, but to do so for that long with many tens of thousands of troops regularly?

Sure, fair enough. I would argue that the problem is political will because our military is volunteer.

If we really needed to colonize a country we'd reinstate the draft.

But there would be no political support for that, because there's no political will.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
What?

Please expand on this. You think we could win Afghanistan?

http://thediplomat.com/2016/10/spoilers-and-peace-in-afghanistan-negotiating-with-the-taliban/

I mean, 'winning' here is 'peaceful settlement', or at least ought to be. The Taliban will have to be invited into the political process. But they're not going to do that until they cannot improve their bargaining hand, which means the war has to reach a stalemate scenario. That can't happen when the Aghan national army is in as poor a condition as it is - 2015 saw a string of victories under the Taliban and jeopardized the secret quadrilateral negotiations that had been being held prior to that point. At the same time, it can't be imposed by the US (since that is in itself one of the Taliban's conditions for settlement). So the US would have to pour large amounts of resources into training and equipping the Afghan army, significantly more than is the status quo.

That's among other things, and I might write a longer post, but I think a settlement of hostilities is possible.
 
For you, yes. However, eight years from now there are going to be younger voters who have never experienced the taste of a Trump presidency. They will easily fall prey to "both sides are the same" rhetoric, or just not vote for some reason or other.

That's why civics is just as important as history. I'd support a practicum for high school students that has them digest, analyze, and argue against opposing views in a non-judgemental way. Learn how to recognize bias within ourselves and others. Learn how to raise people's awareness of their own biases. Learn how to combat FUD and propaganda.
 

Ogodei

Member
Negotiated settlement is the only reasonable endgame, and you just have to make sure it doesn't end up like the "settlement" of the Vietnam War where the North just rolled in 18 months after America left and swamped the place.
 
Lol Trump just claimed credit for jobs created after his election, under Obama. Including November. I had no idea the hiring process was so efficient!
 

Wilsongt

Member
I mean, many of them will literally die if they are deported back to a country they've never lived in and don't speak the language of.

All of their lives will be destroyed.

#AllLivesMatters*

Except children of illegal immigrants who had plenty of time to become legal citizens and chose not to, and should be deported and work on coming here LEGALLY.
 

gaugebozo

Member
My dad once sent me and my sister an email about how Obamacare going through would make my mom closer her business to try and guilt us from voting Obama, basically. I was concerned so I spent an entire day reading over the actual text of the law and sent him a response citing almost nothing but the actual text of the law.

His response?

"Nice lefty talking points, but reality doesn't work like that."
Did your mother's business have to close? More importantly, if it didn't, your father changed his mind, right?

Wrong
 
How would you describe the effects of today's news on Dreamers?

I want to write letters to my representatives but I'm having trouble properly and adequately framing the effects Dreamers will endure because of this.

I'm thinking along the lines of something like: "putting the future of 800,000 honest Americans in limbo over the next 6 months" but that is quite the understatement and doesn't come close to demonstrating the seriousness of the issue.

I'm not a DREAMer, but I have a pretty large pre-existing condition, and I remember how tortuous reading the news every day figuring out whether I was going to have my lifespan considerably shortened by the Republican congress was. I suspect it's similar for the DREAMERs right now. Something like

"Every day for past six months, DREAMERs have careened from hope to despair, giddiness and dismay. Every day they wake up and feverishly scan the headlines for news of how the fight is going. Every day they go with their friends, and their families, everything that the Congress can take away from them. For the most part they can lose themselves in everyday work, except for the pit in their stomach they can afford to acknowledge only rarely. It is not an exaggeration to say our dysfunctional political system has placed the Sword of Damocles over their necks. It's time to end that cruelty."

Or at least, like I said, that's what the AHCA fight felt like to me.
 

RDreamer

Member
Did your mother's business have to close? More importantly, if it didn't, your father changed his mind, right?

Wrong

No and LOL no.

My dad never reads any of the shit I show to him to try and change his mind. It's always literally "Nice lefty talking points but reality is different." Every time on every topic.
 

Blader

Member
My dad once sent me and my sister an email about how Obamacare going through would make my mom closer her business to try and guilt us from voting Obama, basically. I was concerned so I spent an entire day reading over the actual text of the law and sent him a response citing almost nothing but the actual text of the law.

His response?

"Nice lefty talking points, but reality doesn't work like that."

My dad is a pretty dyed in the wool conservative, down to the Don't Tread On Me t-shirt. We used to debate politics all the time but it turned from interesting to aggravating pretty quickly, and would get me worked up into bad moods all the time as a result. I just stopped talking to him about politics (and in general, for the most part) altogether. Now whenever we do chat it's about movies or Game of Thrones, lol.

I was actually pretty impressed with myself that I managed to last until June of 2016 before Trump came up in conversation once (and even then it was just that one time). He sent me a really shitty "GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!" email on election night, and I sent him back a harsh response that I guess made him feel bad, which is probably the most I've ever been able to impact him in a political conversation, so that's something?
 
fuck I'm so grateful my famly live in a different country and we don't clash over self professed sexual assaulters and their administrations.

sorry to hear, RDreamer. The condescending tone is something i expect to read in the online comments section and not something i would expect in real life.

i havent spoken to my brother since the election and its clear we may never do so again.
 

RDreamer

Member
fuck I'm so grateful my famly live in a different country and we don't clash over self professed sexual assaulters and their administrations.

sorry to hear, RDreamer. The condescending tone is something i expect to read in the online comments section and not something i would expect in real life.

i havent spoken to my brother since the election and its clear we may never do so again.

My dad's always been the real life version of an online comments section. He always wanted to be the loudest, most opinionated in the room. He spent literally decades watching Fox News and right wing talk radio. He has a good amount of real life intelligence, but he really lacks the sort of book smarts and intelligence capable of parsing statistics and information at a higher level, unfortunately. That's partially why the conservative "common sense" answers always seem to work for him.

What's interesting is he hated Trump. He wanted Walker or Cruz to win. He said he thought Trump was a complete moron and a democrat. He called him a democratic plant a few times but then just settled on the fact that he's actually a democrat. He voted for him hoping he'd be impeached at Pence would become president.

He still defends nearly everything Trump does now, though. We've clashed a few times since election and he's unfriended me on Facebook. He's said since the election I've been a "bully" online when I call people out for their racism, etc.
 

GrapeApes

Member
No and LOL no.

My dad never reads any of the shit I show to him to try and change his mind. It's always literally "Nice lefty talking points but reality is different." Every time on every topic.
You should reply to that email every year on the anniversary of the ACA. Ask if your mom has closed her business yet.
 
My dad's always been the real life version of an online comments section. He always wanted to be the loudest, most opinionated in the room. He spent literally decades watching Fox News and right wing talk radio. He has a good amount of real life intelligence, but he really lacks the sort of book smarts and intelligence capable of parsing statistics and information at a higher level, unfortunately. That's partially why the conservative "common sense" answers always seem to work for him.

What's interesting is he hated Trump. He wanted Walker or Cruz to win. He said he thought Trump was a complete moron and a democrat. He called him a democratic plant a few times but then just settled on the fact that he's actually a democrat. He voted for him hoping he'd be impeached at Pence would become president.

He still defends nearly everything Trump does now, though. We've clashed a few times since election and he's unfriended me on Facebook. He's said since the election I've been a "bully" online when I call people out for their racism, etc.

That sucks, RD.

On some levels, I'm kind of glad my dad passed away before 2016.

After he retired (in 2005) he watched a lot of Fox News. He was always pretty staunchly conservative, but he became insufferable in the last 10 years of his life when it came to politics. I'd let him rant at me, so that he'd get it out of his system (Pre-Trump I could just shake my head and let him go). I have no doubt Post-Trump would have made him even more insufferable. I let it go due to not wanting a repeat. of what happened between his father and him (They had a fight, walked away from each other, and never reconciled before my grandfather passed away).

I don't say this to my close family, but: I'm very sad that my dad is gone...I'm happy some of his ideas died with him.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Watching so many people in that 'What Happened' thread refuse to admit Clinton did not support federal public option in the 2016 primary until days before Sanders' concession is shameful.
 

Ernest

Banned
Just because of DACA, let's not disregard other shitty things Trump is doing right now!

Trump's Nominee To Be USDA's Chief Scientist Is Not A Scientist

Sam Clovis, a conservative talk radio host who ran President Trump's campaign in Iowa, has been nominated to a top scientific post at the Department of Agriculture even though he lacks a science background.
He's also a big tub of goo who looks like he hasn't eaten a farm grown vegetable in decades.
 
Watching so many people in that 'What Happened' thread refuse to admit Clinton did not support federal public option in the 2016 primary until days before Sanders' concession is shameful.
Her 2008 plan included a public option. The real story here is that in 2016 Clinton was the candidate of political concession while Bernie Sanders was the candidate of activism. That's a plus for Bernie but just saying she didn't support a public option in 2016 makes it sound like she's never been for it.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Her 2008 plan included a public option. The real story here is that in 2016 Clinton was the candidate of political concession while Bernie Sanders was the candidate of activism. That's a plus for Bernie but just saying she didn't support a public option in 2016 makes it sound like she's never been for it.

I'm pretty happy to say she supported it in 2008. She didn't support it in 2016. That is important! If you support the Civil Rights Act in 2020, then suddenly go very quiet on the issue of disenfranchising minorities in 2028, I'm not obligated to vote for you because of what you said 8 years ago!
 
this isn't as bad as the hurricanes obviously but this whole region is on fire and it's so smoky outside I got sick and congested walking to class today

thankfully our district's state senator is hard at working trying to remove all mention of climate change from classrooms
 

Joe

Member
Maybe try to find out how many dreamers are in the army. Then say they should replace those dreamers with the sons and daughters of congress members because they care so much about positions being taken away from true Americans.

I mean, many of them will literally die if they are deported back to a country they've never lived in and don't speak the language of.

All of their lives will be destroyed.

I'm not a DREAMer, but I have a pretty large pre-existing condition, and I remember how tortuous reading the news every day figuring out whether I was going to have my lifespan considerably shortened by the Republican congress was. I suspect it's similar for the DREAMERs right now. Something like

"Every day for past six months, DREAMERs have careened from hope to despair, giddiness and dismay. Every day they wake up and feverishly scan the headlines for news of how the fight is going. Every day they go with their friends, and their families, everything that the Congress can take away from them. For the most part they can lose themselves in everyday work, except for the pit in their stomach they can afford to acknowledge only rarely. It is not an exaggeration to say our dysfunctional political system has placed the Sword of Damocles over their necks. It's time to end that cruelty."

Or at least, like I said, that's what the AHCA fight felt like to me.

Thank you for the replies!
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
You right

You were also right I rarely bother to correct the conspiracy theorists. In my partial defence, I plead that it would be extraordinarily unlikely to be successful!
 

pigeon

Banned
You were also right I rarely bother to correct the conspiracy theorists. In my partial defence, I plead that it would be extraordinarily unlikely to be successful!

It's not about the money, Crab. It's about sending a message*.


* Via social opprobrium, which third parties observe and rely on to direct appropriate behavior choices
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
We already had a terrible discussion of Hillary's book. Are we really going to discuss the OT topic about Hillary's book?

It's not so much the book as the revisionism. There's some incredible rewriting of what exactly Clinton's campaign looked like going on, which is quite harmful, since you can't learn from your mistakes if you don't understand them!

I don't really care about the contents of the book. It's not even going to be the juiciest political gossip tape of the year - Varoufakis has that one on a lockdown with Adults in the Room, which incidentally you should immediately purchase a copy of and begin reading.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Adults in the room was a fairly dire read #hottakes

Oh, Varoufakis' writing style is complete fecal matter he's that far up his own arse, for sure, but the hot takes are volcanic.
 
Don't nominate a super unpopular candidate.

The central theme of a presidential campaign should not be "vote for me because my opponent says mean things."

If you're defending a state where the long term trends are in the opposition's favor, the proper response is not to ignore said state.

Read the mood of the country.

Having a vision is a good thing. Corollary: A loose collection of decent but uninspiring policies on your website is not a vision.

There's a start.
 

CCS

Banned
Oh, Varoufakis' writing style is complete fecal matter he's that far up his own arse, for sure, but the hot takes are volcanic.

The problem is he's so egocentric it undermines his arguments to a fairly major degree. I'm not interested in laying all of the blame on Greece and exonerating the other figures involved, but he's a highly unreliable narrator at best.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
wait is Varoufakis bad?

I like Varoufakis a lot (we've actually talked twice now from sheer coincidence), but he is completely and totally full of himself. The book is still fascinating, but you do have to, uh, decode it, I guess?
 

Ogodei

Member
I could imagine Varoufakis being completely insufferable, but I can only imagine how you'd feel if you were the only one in the room not chanting "the beatings will continue until morale improves."
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Oddly enough, productivity acceleration is actually slowing. We still have productivity growth, but the amount is less every year instead of more.

It's a few pages late at the pace this thread grows, but in construction productivity has actually fallen to half of what it was in the 60s.

https://www.economist.com/news/busi...has-plunged-half-late-1960s-efficiency-eludes

More culpable are two broader structural trends. First, the industry has become less capital-intensive, with workers replacing machinery. This shift is more understandable in countries with access to inexpensive labour. In Saudi Arabia, for example, it is cheaper to import workers from India or Pakistan than to buy machinery. In many countries, however, labour costs might be expected to spur firms to substitute workers with capital.

Instead, volatility in demand for construction has trained builders to curb investment. “The industry has learned through bitter experience to prepare for the next recession,” says Luc Luyten of Bain & Company, a consultancy. Capital-heavy approaches to construction bring high fixed costs that are difficult to cut in downturns. Workers, in contrast, can be fired.

The second big problem is that the industry has, for the most part, failed to consolidate. Efficient firms should theoretically squash laggards, yielding bigger, more productive companies. “But construction is an industry that appears to have defied Adam Smith,” says Mr Luyten. That is partly because building codes differ not just between countries but within them, which makes it harder to reap the benefits of scale. The customised nature of most projects further limits the usual advantages of size. Because the designs of most projects differ, contractors have to start from scratch for each one.

America now has about 730,000 building outfits, with an average of ten employees each. In Europe there are 3.3m with an average of just four workers. Competition is fierce and profit margins are thinner than for any industry except retail. This fragmentation creates its own problems. Slim margins make investment even less likely. Often projects have more than a dozen subcontractors, each keen to maximise profit rather than collaborate to contain costs, says Thijs Asselbergs, a professor at Delft University of Technology.

The result is an industry that raises prices for clients and mostly ignores tools that might improve productivity. “While we are all using iPhones, construction is still in the Walkman phase,” says Ben van Berkel, a Dutch architect. Many building professionals use hand-drawn plans riddled with errors. A builder of concrete-framed towers from the 1960s would find little has changed on building sites today, except for better safety standards.
 
Well, any political book will have to wait in line behind Fire on the Prairie for me. It's the hottest political read of the year*

*Among 25 year old books written about politicians who died 30 years ago.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
The problem is he's so egocentric it undermines his arguments to a fairly major degree. I'm not interested in laying all of the blame on Greece and exonerating the other figures involved, but he's a highly unreliable narrator at best.

This is true of all political biographies, though. Have you read Blair's autobiography? He makes Varoufakis look like an amateur!
 

CCS

Banned
From a political theory thought exercise perspective, I'd recommend Against Elections as a book with an interesting hypothesis. It proposes that government would be both more democratic and would work better if it worked on a modified and more complicated model of Athenian Democracy (I.e. A mixture of selecting from the citizenry by lot and special subject groups made up of expert volunteers). I don't necessarily agree, but it's absolutely fascinating to consider the arguments.

This is true of all political biographies, though. Have you read Blair's autobiography? He makes Varoufakis look like an amateur!

This is why I don't tend to read political biographies :p the only other one I remember buying was Nick Clegg's, and that was to give to a friend as a joke.
 
I'm pretty happy to say she supported it in 2008. She didn't support it in 2016. That is important! If you support the Civil Rights Act in 2020, then suddenly go very quiet on the issue of disenfranchising minorities in 2028, I'm not obligated to vote for you because of what you said 8 years ago!
Should Obama have been primaried in 2012 for not running on a public option that year?
 
It's weird how they're acting like Congress was prevented from doing a bill while the executive action was in place.

It's not like they weren't allowed to, or weren't allowed to for ALL THE FUCKING YEARS.

They have to govern, and the ones who still can and want to have to win the clearance to do so.

Pathetic.

Maybe try to find out how many dreamers are in the army. Then say they should replace those dreamers with the sons and daughters of congress members because they care so much about positions being taken away from true Americans.

Morality and empathy from the left, lost productivity and how many Dreamers are in the armed forces from the left.

From the center:


I hope this splits and conflicts support for this so a bill can get thru sans wall bullshit.

Just because of DACA, let's not disregard other shitty things Trump is doing right now!

Trump's Nominee To Be USDA's Chief Scientist Is Not A Scientist

He's also a big tub of goo who looks like he hasn't eaten a farm grown vegetable in decades.

Imma keep posting this so the talking points reflect upon his views.
 
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