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[Deus Ex Machina]

When Michelle Met Hillary- Photos Time Mag.

Link and photos: http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1836687,00.html

 

[polyh3dron]

Didn't he institute universal healthcare in MA?

Kind of, but he would fine people who didn't get health care due to it being too expensive, and these people would rather pay the fine than get the insurance because the fine was cheaper.

 

[ViperVisor]

MITTENS

 

[VALIS]

Why are you guys so happy Romney is picked as VP?

Yeah, I don't see it either. Out of all the crappy choices McCain had, Romney is one of the less crappy ones as far as demographics and appeal go. It's a better pick than Pawlenty or Lieberman.

 

[alr1ght]

because nutso religious people won't vote for a mormon, leaving some of those southern states up for grabs.

 

[speculawyer]

Why are you guys so happy Romney is picked as VP?

1) Endless magic underwear jokes
2) Dog on the roof of the car jokes
3) Rich/Richer 08
4) Teeth-gnashing of fundies to see a heretic on their ticket
5) Who let the dogs out?
6) Sleazy car sales man
7) Flip/Flop 08

He'd be a gold mine of comedy.

 

[Door2Dawn]

I hope the ticket backfires though,Mitt Romney is a very dishonest person imo. He doesn't deserve to be president or vice president. Neither John McCain or Mitt Romney doesn't care what regular people are going through today,they just want to be president/vice president.

 

[Kusagari]

Yeah, I don't see it either. Out of all the crappy choices McCain had, Romney is one of the less crappy ones as far as demographics and appeal go. It's a better pick than Pawlenty or Lieberman.

That's like saying a dog turd is better than a cat turd. They were all horrible. Pawlenty would have probably been the safest but they would have the most boring ticket ever.

 

[bob_arctor]

Now if you would rather listen to politicians and talk show hosts tell you that Christopher Reeve will walk again and people will be healed "like magic" so you will vote for them, then I suggest you remain in blissful ignorance so you can be indignant at fundies.

Eh, Tam's pretty informed plus he used to play for your squad as well so cut him some slack. But good to see you here. What do you think if it's Romney?

 

[Hitokage]

I keep thinking the number one reason is demographics at the margins-there's enough Mormons in Nevada and Colorado to maybe save those states. Colorado especially, Obama's probably up a few points there already and has a colossal ground game that the GOP can't hope to match. If the GOP can't hold Colorado it means that McCain has to sweep every single other battleground state-including New Mexico, which is almost off the table completely at this point-something that, in a close election, will be very hard to do.

(Nevermind the top two colors should be black or near-black given the gradient of the other colors)

That was in 1990, and in at least the ten years after 1990, Colorado has grown by over a million largely from immigration while the growth of the Mormon Church is fairly flat.

 

[grandjedi6]

This.

McCain is living proof, Goldwater and Nixon, dead proof.

Don't forget Reagan!

 

[grandjedi6]

I think this cartoon needs to be posted every time someone says that magic phrase:

It's sad how many people don't realize how much of a fiscal hawk Clinton really was

 

[ronito]

Please be Romney, Please be Romney, Please be Romney, Please be Romney, Please be Romney, Please be Romney, Please be Romney, Please be Romney.

It would be so great to watch the evangelicals have a meltdown. Of course outside of the evangelical vote drama Biden will have a tough time with Romney much more so than Pawletany

 

[HylianTom]

Romney reminds me of a slick car salesman. Either that, or her reminds me of Pat O'Brien from Hollywood Insider. He has that nasally, pinch-your-nose-and-talk-about-Britney voice that gets on my nerves..

 

[reilo]

Don't forget Reagan!

Who wants to bet that Reagan's name will be placed into nomination at the RNCC as a way to honor the man?

 

[laserbeam]

I think the evangelicals backing off is being overstated. They are gungho over the abortion issue. They are not stupid they know they need to vote to stop "baby killers" and the "evil ones"

 

[bob_arctor]

"Remote Control"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nA1MwOE86U

:lol Wow. We the People are not going to fall for it anymore. Sorry, Johnny.

 

[Guileless]

The article doesn't mention that Hitokage and this research was on mice, but I have no reason to doubt you. Pres. Bush's executive order allowed federal funding for research on existing stem cell lines, which I think is probably the best compromise available for public and private research. Embryonic stem cell research would continue without the creation of embryos specifically for experimentation. It is a shift of policy but not of principle, and if you share the principle a more comprehensive ban makes sense politically based on recent scientific developments.

Except that no one says that except liars like you that stick words in people's mouths.

I do not have the imagination to make up the fact that people who style themselves as "pro-science" and love to condescend to "fundies" are aligned with charlatans who actually describe their science project as "magic" with no sense of irony.

"If we do the work that we can do in this country, the work that we will do when John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve will get up out of that wheelchair and walk again," Vice Presidential candidate John Edwards said.

"How’d you like to have your own personal biological repair kit standing by at the hospital? Sound like magic? Welcome to the future of medicine."

Ron Reagan addressing the 2004 Democratic National Convention

 

[Karma Kramer]

Can someone explain why evangelicals hate mormonism? Is it just because its different... or is their particular aspects of the faith that offends people?

Also does anyone have any polls of Romney during the primaries on how Romney performed with evangelicals.

 

[soul creator]

New DailyKOS electoral vote/state result tracker thingamabob

 

[dave is ok]

Romney is a dick, fining people 600 dollars if they don't have healthcare. How about you fine their EMPLOYERS for not giving it to them?

 

[polyh3dron]

Don't forget Reagan!

He didn't lose though.

 

[Hitokage]

Can someone explain why evangelicals hate mormonism? Is it just because its different... or is their particular aspects of the faith that offends people?

Also does anyone have any polls of Romney during the primaries on how Romney performed with evangelicals.

Whoa, deja vu!

 

[adamsappel]

"Remote Control"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nA1MwOE86U

No "I'm John McCain and I approve this message," but it is paid for by the campaign?

 

[Barrett2]

Can someone explain why evangelicals hate mormonism? Is it just because its different... or is their particular aspects of the faith that offends people?

Also does anyone have any polls of Romney during the primaries on how Romney performed with evangelicals.

Evangelicals hate Mormons because Mormons claim to be the only true religion on the Earth, and have many bizarre beliefs compared with contemporary American protestant / evangelicals. Mormons also have a crazy and disturbing church history that has since been covered-up, which is something that drives Evangelicals crazy. (I have a bit of knowledge on this subject, mostly because I was raised Mormon and have studied Mormon & Christian history quite extensively).

 

[speculawyer]

Can someone explain why evangelicals hate mormonism? Is it just because its different... or is their particular aspects of the faith that offends people?

People have different views . . . most just ignore them as if they were buddhists, Hindus, etc.

However, some evangelicals view Mormons as out-right heretics. A few anti-mormon protesters show up at the annual Joseph Smith shin-dig the Mormons throw in upstate New York each year were the magical gold plates were supposedly found.

It is easier for people to ignore people of a completely different religion than people who are perverting your own religion.

 

[Incognito]

Hito might have some insights on Mormonism....

 

[User 10639]

Romney is a dick, fining people 600 dollars if they don't have healthcare. How about you fine their EMPLOYERS for not giving it to them?

Why should it be the responsibility of the employers to give them healthcare?

 

[Gaborn]

It's sad how many people don't realize how much of a fiscal hawk Clinton really was

Deficit hawk more than fiscal hawk. The good thing about Clinton is he raised taxes to go along with spending increases. The bad thing about the Republicans is they didn't cut spending to go along with their tax cuts. (Reagan actually DID cut spending one year, but only marginally and not enough to offset his tax cuts)

 

[Skiptastic]

It's sad how many people don't realize how much of a fiscal hawk Clinton really was

He was a pragmatist who was helped by a Congress that was actually interested in fiscal responsibility. So much so they were hell bent on getting a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution. Look what that party became once they got one of their own in the White House. It sickens me. It went from "government is bad, make it spend responsibly!" to "our government is good, let's spend to show you how!" Fucking morons.

Can't believe I would say that I miss that slimebag, but I do.

 

[Hitokage]

(I have too much knowledge on this subject, mostly because I was raised Mormon and have studied Mormon & Christian history quite extensively).

Really fun field of research, if I may say so, including topics like Danites and the Council of Fifty.

Hito might have some insights on Mormonism....

Speculawyer pretty much covered it. In the end, mormons don't respect any baptism but their own, and many protestant sects return the favor.

 

[Gaborn]

He was a pragmatist who was helped by a Congress that was actually interested in fiscal responsibility. So much so they were hell bent on getting a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution. Look what that party became once they got one of their own in the White House. It sickens me. It went from "government is bad, make it spend responsibly!" to "our government is good, let's spend to show you how!" Fucking morons.

Yep, not to mention the "let's get rid of the department of education and leave it to the states" party to the party that worked with Teddy Kennedy on NCLB

 

[speculawyer]

I do not have the imagination to make up the fact that people who style themselves as "pro-science" and love to condescend to "fundies" are aligned with charlatans who actually describe their science project as "magic" with no sense of irony.

"If we do the work that we can do in this country, the work that we will do when John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve will get up out of that wheelchair and walk again," Vice Presidential candidate John Edwards said.

"How’d you like to have your own personal biological repair kit standing by at the hospital? Sound like magic? Welcome to the future of medicine."

Ron Reagan addressing the 2004 Democratic National Convention

Well, I agree that those statements were completely stupid and irresponsible. However, the vast majority of people phrase things more appropriately. Fortunately, neither of those two have much of a future in politics.

 

[Guileless]

Eh, Tam's pretty informed plus he used to play for your squad as well so cut him some slack. But good to see you here. What do you think if it's Romney?

Romney has the kind of phoniness rarely seen even in politicians except for phoniness savants like Sen. Edwards and Judge Smails.

 

[Barrett2]

Really fun field of research, if I may say so, including topics like Danites and the Council of Fifty.

For a while I was planning on majoring in Biblical studies, but I found over time the more I studied LDS history and early Christianity the more enraged and combative it would make me towards others in discussing it. Eventually I just quit studying it altogether, sold all my books, and have never looked back.

But yeah, from a purely academic perspective, the LDS church and its history is very fascinating. The problem is ever discussing it with anyone. LDS people are so clueless & defensive about their church's history, any in-depth study about the church is done in a vacuum, you can't really talk about it with other LDS people, and non-LDS people don't give a shit.

So how did you come to learn about the church? LDS I presume?

 

[besada]

Can someone explain why evangelicals hate mormonism? Is it just because its different... or is their particular aspects of the faith that offends people?

Also does anyone have any polls of Romney during the primaries on how Romney performed with evangelicals.

I was raised a Southern Baptist. I'm married to an ex-Mormon. We're both atheists. I just wanted to clarify that the following opinions are not mine, but those I grew up hearing.

On one hand, Southern Baptists (who are the heart of evangelicals in the South) do not consider Mormons Christians. They actively preach against Mormons from the pulpit. They believe all Mormons are going to hell (of course, they think Catholics are going to hell, too). They consider Mormonism a cult. Like many people, they are deeply offended by baptism for the dead. Some consider Mormons to be tools of Satan, created to lead good Baptists astray. They willfully misconstrue the meaning and purpose of the undergarments. They frequently claim that Mormons never gave up polygamy.

On the other hand, it's inevitable that they're going to have a problem with Mormons. Mormon theology, while Christian, is wildly different from standard Baptist theology -- including the assertion that Jesus and Satan are brothers, that there are three levels of heaven, and that after Christ's resurrection he popped up in the Americas.

On the gripping hand, there's also a cultural-historical feud that's gone on so long that about half of the hatred is just momentum. Both groups moved West to get away from big cities where they felt they couldn't pursue their (although the Mormons moved West to avoid rape, murder, and burning), and they competed for the same land and the same followers. I'm not sure most Baptists could tell you why they hate the Latter-Day Saints, other than they grew up hearing horrible things about them.

 

[speculawyer]

Why should it be the responsibility of the employers to give them healthcare?

Well . . you can flip it around . . . . why should the state be forced to subsidize the healthcare of employees of companies too cheap to pay for the healthcare needs of their employees? Are those people running those companies a bunch of socialists?

That's the way I attack companies like Wal*Mart . . . a company that has been known to even help teach its employees how to apply for and get state healthcare. Those socialists are ripping off the rest of us by failing to adequately compensate their workers and shifting the burden to the rest of us.

It's the lazy GOP crony capitalist way to wealth . . . privatize the profit and socialize the risk.

 

[grandjedi6]

He didn't lose though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States)_presidential_primaries,_1976

 

[Hitokage]

lawblob: Born into the church, baptised at 8, deacon at 12, teacher at 14, priest by 16, but then started learning the church wasn't what it claimed to be when I was 19, started heavily researching the matter(such as pulling up century-old New York Times articles from a university library), and stopped believing soon after. However, stayed in the closet so to speak for a year, and was ordained elder, received my patriarchal blessing, turned in mission papers and received a mission call, and went to the temple for my endowments all in that time. Pulled the plug between the time I went to the temple and when I was to report to the MTC.

They frequently claim that Mormons never gave up polygamy.

As I explained earlier in this thread, they're half-right.

 

[ZealousD]

I agree. However, is this born from the 'evil' GOP not letting him run the campaign that he wants to run, or just pragmatism? As much as we want to hate the guy or the party for the campaign they're running (and I'm certainly not a fan of what I'm seeing), what choices did he have for winning? After all, although the so-called 'real' John McCain may be honorable, is he not a guy who wants to be president?

How well was the maverick angle from 2000 really going to play?

It was John McCain's maverick image amongst independently minded Republicans that won him the nomination. Remember, amongst anti-war Republicans, John McCain came out on top.

It isn't so much that it actually looks like the real White House windows, but it certainly resembles what I thought the White House windows looked like. Close enough for government work, as they say.

They more resemble the windows of the West Wing, actually.

 

[polyh3dron]

Stay classy, Minneapolis GOP:

POW POW POW POW

 

[besada]

Well . . you can flip it around . . . . why should the state be forced to subsidize the healthcare of employees of companies too cheap to pay for the healthcare needs of their employees? Are those people running those companies a bunch of socialists?

Companies shouldn't be connected to healthcare. Period. It's bad for everyone. It's bad for employees because a) they lose it if they lose their job and b)they're in a pool size directly related to their company size, which determines cost. It also creates ugly privacy issues, like companies demanding non-smokers, companies knowing your medical details, etc.

It's bad for companies because companies spend a huge amount of money on it, and again, get worse rates because of pool size. It's particularly hard for small companies, who get shitty rates and can afford it least. They're also not very good at administering it, because it's not their core competency.

The entire population of the U.S. should be a single pool, ie: single-payer health care. Companies should divest themselves of any connection to health care, and the existing Government system (which is used by our politicians) should be expanded to cover everyone. At which point the health care system should do a WalMart on the insurance companies and drive down costs.

 

[pxleyes]

Stay classy, Minneapolis GOP:

POW POW POW POW

..............................................................................................................

 

[polyh3dron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States)_presidential_primaries,_1976

oh duh, the fucking primaries...

 

[besada]

As I explained earlier in this thread, they're half-right.

I missed it, but are you talking FLDS at Short Creek and elsewhere, or the constant whispers that high ranking members in the actual LDS have secret wives?

 

[woeds]

The AP just sent out this nugget
Biographical information on John McCain

NAME — John Sidney McCain III

AGE-BIRTH DATE-LOCATION — 71; born Aug. 29, 1936; Panama Canal Zone.

EXPERIENCE: U.S. Senate, 1987-present; unsuccessful Republican presidential candidate, 2000; U.S. House of Representatives, 1983-1987; director, Navy Senate Liaison Office, Washington, 1977-1981; captain, Navy pilot, 1977; prisoner of war, Hanoi, Vietnam, 1967-1973; commander, U.S. Navy, 1958.

EDUCATION: Bachelor's degree, U.S. Naval Academy, 1958; National War College, 1973-1974.

FAMILY: Wife, Cindy Hensley; five sons and two daughters; divorced once before.

QUOTE — "I'm not running for president to be somebody, but to do something; to do the hard but necessary things not the easy and needless things." — McCain, in announcing his candidacy on April 25, 2007, in Portsmouth, N.H.

But apart from that, who came up with this? What made someone at the AP say "You know what, lets copy/paste some info McCain that everyone has known for ages and put it out here as a newsstory."

 

[speculawyer]

lawblob: Born into the church, baptised at 8, deacon at 12, teacher at 14, priest by 16, but then started learning the church wasn't what it claimed to be, started heavily researching the matter(such as pulling up century-old New York Times articles from a university library), and stopped believing soon after. However, stayed in the closet so to speak for a year, and was ordained elder, received my patriarchal blessing, turned in mission papers and received a mission call, and went to the temple for my endowments all in that time. Pulled the plug between the time I went to the temple and when I was to report to the MTC.

As I explained earlier in this thread, they're half-right.

Wow. That reminds me what my mom sometime says . . . "You were always so good in Sunday school and learned the material perfectly, I don't understand how you strayed."

Uh, yeah mom, I am a very good student. That's why I was able to learn so much more that took me in a far more fascinating and logical direction.

 

[polyh3dron]

The AP just sent out this nugget
Biographical information on John McCain

The AP is trying to out-Fox Fox News, didn't you hear?

 

[Hitokage]

I missed it, but are you talking FLDS at Short Creek and elsewhere, or the constant whispers that high ranking members in the actual LDS have secret wives?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12551599#post12551599

 

[besada]

Wow. That reminds me what my mom sometime says . . . "You were always so good in Sunday school and learned the material perfectly, I don't understand how you strayed."

Uh, yeah mom, I am a very good student. That's why I was able to learn so much more that took me in a far more fascinating and logical direction.

I was doing early training to be a pastor when I left the Southern Baptists. They loved my big loud voice. They should have stopped me from reading.