ChiefDada
Gold Member
I would argue that the impetus for 60fps at high graphical fidelity this gen is far stronger than the push towards 4k for the PS4 Pro.
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PS5 Pro Specs Leak are Real, Releasing Holiday 2024(Insider Gaming)
- Thread starter jm89
- Start date
I would argue that the impetus for 60fps at high graphical fidelity this gen is far stronger than the push towards 4k for the PS4 Pro.
Loxus
Member
If Sony is using their own custom AI hardware, that would mean they're taking out the AI Matrix Accelerators to put them back in?
That sounds like a waste of R&D money.
Why not spend that money on adding more L3 Cache or a CPU upgrade?
At this point why is Sony even using AMD hardware? They should just create their own GPU at this point.
That sounds like a waste of R&D money.
Why not spend that money on adding more L3 Cache or a CPU upgrade?
At this point why is Sony even using AMD hardware? They should just create their own GPU at this point.
digdug2
Member
TBF, this thing isn't even officially announced yet, so who's to say that they are wasting R&D money or even actually going this route?If Sony is using their own custom AI hardware, that would mean they're taking out the AI Matrix Accelerators to put them back in?
That sounds like a waste of R&D money.
Why not spend that money on adding more L3 Cache or a CPU upgrade?
At this point why is Sony even using AMD hardware? They should just create their own GPU at this point.
Loxus
Member
May not even be releasing.
Microsoft is talking about their next Xbox and we still talking a PS5 Pro?
All attention should be on a 4-6× upgrade, not a 45% upgrade.
asdasdasdbb
Member
MS's console is likely going to either be way too expensive for mass market and/or not really much better than the PS5 Pro.
Well, the CPU will be decently better at least, assuming it uses Zen 5c.
Brigandier
Member
Perrott
Member
Yes, because Microsoft already lost the generation by a dramatic margin, while PS5 is on its way to match or even surpass the success of PS4.
That's why one console manufacturer is desperate to turn the page already while the other is focused on adding more value and alternatives to its existent ecosystem.
West Texas CEO
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief and Nosiest Dildo Archeologist
You don't know how tech works. Remember what Sony did to Ninty?
They used their partnership with Nintendo to spy on their tech capabilities, before finalizing the PSX's specs.
It's basically a reverse Trojan horse that Sony is playing right now, or as some people would say, "4D Chess".
Checkmate, bitches! Cerny just stole yo ass.
Radical_3d
Member
Just how much you have to pay for a 40-60 TF machine? We’re not there in a mass market price. Moore’s Law hasn’t been at full speed for a while.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
We simply don't know what it means at this point, but it ain't like we have long before we do. Hopefully straight from Cerny himself.
C'mon man...
SegaSnatcher
Member
Plenty of games don't consistently hit their target performance mode FPS.
I actually don't think the Xbox Series X at $599 & PS5 Pro will affect the sales by much , GTA6 will set off a another gold rush for the consoles & I'm sure PS5 Pro will benefit from that but a lot of these people will be buying consoles without any real knowledge of the specs
the wrong salesman at the store will easily sale these 2TB Xbox Series X to grandma by telling her it holds more games 
Team Andromeda
Member
Most of the big games already come in at 60 FPS
I dont agree myself , but hoping for some lovely raytracing effects to make it worthwhile.
Physiognomonics
Member
It's not unsurmontable obviously. But it needs years of development and a clear vision. Both of which are missing at MS currently. Even Nvidia with all their will, unlimited GPU power available and money needed years of development before getting DLSS where it is now.
And don't forget that technically the first company to litteraly kickstart the reconstruction endeaver 2 years before Nvidia was... Sony in 2016 with dedicated hardware and custom techniques on PS4 Pro. And with the few silicon dedicated on their GPU they end result was and still is very good. I mean some of those games running on PS5 are the ones that have the best IQ (and better perceived resolution/performance), far better than this FSR2 trash.
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King Dazzar
Member
When Grandma walks into a store, will she even notice that Xbox exists? And with that point, certainly here in the UK when I looked, XSX 2tb is MS store online only.I actually don't think the Xbox Series X at $599 & PS5 Pro will affect the sales by much , GTA6 will set off a another gold rush for the consoles & I'm sure PS5 Pro will benefit from that but a lot of these people will be buying consoles without any real knowledge of the specs
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PeteBull
Member
Grandma gonna be told to buy playstation, so chances are higher her buying even ps4 than current gen xbox
TheRedRiders
Member
I would add that Playstation have demonstrated their excellence in developing software, PS5's API stack has been a key factor in developing for it and ultimately determining how performant it will be
Sony also has an entire department dedicated to television, films and cameras, areas in which they already have already invested in machine learning technologies for upsampling, they also have research papers on things like ray-tracing and ray reconstruction.
I don't know PSSR will stack up against DLSS, but i am confident it's going to be really good.
Bernoulli
M2 slut
their TV s have the best upscaling tech and algorithms
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Reconstruction as we know it today... does go a long way back. It's been an evolution. And yes, you can say it started with Sony and checkerboard rendering. With software-based reconstruction spearheaded by Guerilla games and funny enough... Ubisoft. But yes, Sony was first to actually put in dedicated hardware to accelerate it in the PS4 Pro.
Having said all that, as it stands today... ML-based reconstruction (DLSS, XeSS and soon to be PSSR) is now demystified. Its basically a matrix operation run on matrix hardware. Thats it. It's why Intel could spit out a reconstruction solution that rivaled DLSS and is better than anything FSR can manage... in their first attempt. Everything that makes DLSS great, can be done by anyone as long as they have hardware with ML units.
Once the hardware is there, it's a simple case of training their algorithm. And the crazy thing is that you can even use Nvidia hardware to train an algorithm that would run on an AMD-based GPU. The even crazier thing, is that said alogarithim has/could have been being trained for the last 4 years. Even when the people training do not yet have the hardware to actually run their algorithm. Its just matrix code. No special or secret sauce there. At the end of the day, you are or will only be limited by how many TOPS (the AI buzzword to replace the raster buzzword of TF) your processor can handle. And even that has become standardized with how much you actually need to do reconstruction and say frame gen in under 2ms.
But we are not even talking about the most important thing here... that is AMD. Make no mistake, the reason Nvidia has looked a world apart is not because they are sitting on some sort of mystical tech... its all down to AMDs stubbornness (or stupidity, take your pick) of not putting ML-based hardware in their GPUs and actually releasing a ML based reconstruction solution. You have to understand that what AMD has managed thus far with FSR, is actually harder to pull off on a purely software basis. Thats because their algorithm is man-made.
Once the PS5pro hits, all that changes. Every AMD GPU after that would come with ML-based hardware that matches or exceeds whatever is in the PS5pro. AMD will at that point, no doubt have an ML-based reconstruction solution to match or exceed whatever the PSSR is... they probably call it FXR. And even if MS doesn't build out their own, nothing stops them from just using AMDs own... especially if their next GPU is also going to be from AMD. Hell,,, MS could even have an ML-based reconstruction algorithm trained and ready to go right now. Because remember, its now about those TOPs... you can literally have 3 different ML-based reconstruction solutions running on the same hardware. Or a situation where an Nvidia GPU (with more TOPs) can run PSSR better than an PS5pro can run it.
But where this gets interesting, is if MS is really going the route of just not operating within the pricing confines of your typical console, and instead making a premium "console" that retails for $800+... nothing stops them from putting in an Nvidia GPU in there. This is something that MS can and should probably do, because they have to have figured out by now that they will never win sony if they have the exact same priced box. They might as well double down on the power and premiumness of their console, except they will sell as a niche console product, but will always be known as having the best console gaming hardware or experience.
The point is, within a 3 year window, everyone is gonna have ML-based hardware, and everyone is going to be able to do it right.
Apologies for the wall of text.
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Grandma gonna be told to buy playstation, so chances are higher her buying even ps4 than current gen xbox
Yes but this will not be affected much by PS5 Pro & the 2TB Xbox Series.
More damage will be done in the online communities but sales ratios will probably be a lot like they were already was going to be with these versions of the consoles being a small part of the market.
Physiognomonics
Member
There is nothing to show us that this will happen. Sony has being doing reconstruction techniques since 2016 and this is why they have something ready for 2024. What have AMD or MS done in those last years to show us they'll have something ready this year? We know MS tools suck and they'll also suck at this. There won't be any miracles, something that will make they catch back years of experience in a few months.
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Reconstruction is much more of a software rather than HW, because all those "NPU", "AL accelerators" and so on, its just pretty uncomplicated HW compared to CPUs and full in GPUs. Its just that it has to good at parallel processing. Given that AMD is probably flexible when it comes licencing and packaging own solutions to same die, there isn't any reason, why it couldn't be real. However the question now is, if its not more beneficial to have that space occupied by additional compute or/and if its not cheaper to use AMD HW and does your own SW, etc. But pure transistor feasibility is a non concern.
Loxus
Member
Teraflops isn't everything.
AI/ML and RT/PT is what will play a big part in next gen.
MLiD claimed RDNA4 has doubled the RT units per WGP to 4×.
That, plus all the other stuff we know so far can give the generation leap.
Loxus
Member
Not that I'm against the Pro, I'm getting one if it releases but looking at Sony hardware pattern. There's a 50/50 chance it may be canceled or not even have been a real thing.We simply don't know what it means at this point, but it ain't like we have long before we do. Hopefully straight from Cerny himself.
C'mon man...
PS3: 2006 --3 years--> PS3 Slim: 2009
- -7 years--
PS4: 2013 --3 years--> PS4 Slim: 2016
--7 years--
PS5 2020 --3 years--> PS5 Slim: 2023
--7 years--
PS6: 2027
Sony even said PS5 has already entered the latter stages of It's life span, which lines up with a 7 year lifespan.
PS5 Entering ‘The Latter Stage of Its Life Cycle’, Sony Says
“Looking ahead, PS5 will enter the latter stage of its life cycle,” Matsuoka is quoted as saying. “As such, we will put more emphasis on the balance between profitability and sales. For this reason, we expect the annual sales pace of PS5 hardware will start falling from the next fiscal year.”
It can still release and be in the market for 3 years. The PS4 Pro was in the market for 4 years before PS5 released, but being this close to the Next Xbox and PS6, I don't understand the hype for a small upgrade.
Zathalus
Member
Microsoft has already released an AI upscaler this year with Auto SR. It’s not as good as DLSS but then again it has zero performance penalty and runs on a tiny NPU.
Ashamam
Member
rofl 50/50 chance. What a statement....
Physiognomonics
Member
No performance penalty? It needs its own processor! Die area that could be allocated to other stuff. Besides, what are the results compared to others techniques? Is it grounbreaking stuff?
Zathalus
Member
No performance penalty from enabling it unlike FSR, XeSS, or DLSS. It only adds one frame of latency. It does require die space but the NPU is tiny. As for comparison to other techniques it doesn’t hook into motion vectors so it can’t be as good as DLSS but then again it can apply to basically any game without that game needing to be updated. The AI portion of the upscaler seems solid and DF did a video about it recently.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
No. Sony has been doing checkboard reconstruction since 2018. Not ML-based reconstruction. These are two very different things. Sony's PSSR, when it comes, is also running on AMD hardware. I do not know how you can even think that AMD will not have a fork of that tech for themselves for their own GPUs. If sony is working on PSSR that will run on Matrix units in an AMD GPU, there is not a chance in hell AMD is not working on a version of FSR to also take advantage of the same matrix cores in their future GPUs.
The point here is simple, ML based reconstruction is simple to implement if you have matrix units in your GPU. FSR has been a joke thus far because its not ML-based. Its really that simple. And Nvidia, as Intel and now Sony have shown, doesn't have a monopoly on ML-based hardware or algorithms.
You really believe MS has not been working on a for of ML-based reconstruction for DX12 and up? Do you really believe that because nothing has been shown or announced from AMD and MS... it means they have not been working on it? When even Valve (a third party) has released their own lossless scaling plug-in for Windows... come on man... And we are not even talking about MS doing this in 12 months...
Ah well I have tried, all I can say is just wait and see... EVERYONE and their cat is going to have a near-perfect ML-based reconstruction tech ready to go in due time. There would even be third-party hardware agnostic options from the likes of Valve and Epic.
asdasdasdbb
Member
With a price hike, you mean. And yes.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
You are moving the posts. And beginning to throw away reason...
Auto SR needs ML-based hardware to run. And thus in the snapdragon chip there is an NPU for that. In a GPU from AMD (just like in the PS5pro), the matrix cores are built into the compute units. At the end of the day, it comes down to how much TOPS these matrix accelerators can do. The PS5pro is rumored to be able to do as much as 300 TOPS. For reference, the 3080 can do 285 TOPs.
The fact of the matter here is that your argument has already been disputed.... you said MS is not doing anything... but when shown they are.. you are shifting the conversation to them needing an NPU... when in truth, a dedicated NPU is just snapdragons way of going about solving the same issue. For AMD, they only need do it like they are about to do it in the PS5pro.
Radical_3d
Member
So… the PS5 Pro…Teraflops isn't everything.
AI/ML and RT/PT is what will play a big part in next gen.
MLiD claimed RDNA4 has doubled the RT units per WGP to 4×.
That, plus all the other stuff we know so far can give the generation leap.
Loxus
Member
PS5 Pro is meant to be a mid-gen concole with a small boost in performance, not a next gen console.
Alebrije
Member
A Statue of play is not for a PS5 PRO release..
Now have High doubts about a PRO for this year
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Would it be a fair call to suggest If the Pro does drop this year Sony might also do 30th Anniversary limited editions of standard and Pro? Seems they are going back to where it all started in 1994......
Radical_3d
Member
Teraflops isn't everything.
AI/ML and RT/PT is what will play a big part in next gen.
MLiD claimed RDNA4 has doubled the RT units per WGP to 4×.
That, plus all the other stuff we know so far can give the generation leap.
You can only pick one.
Loxus
Member
So you're telling me the PS5 Pro should have next-gen performance?
ChiefDada
Gold Member
I believe he was just fairly pointing out the hypocrisy between your two conflicting posts.
Loxus
Member
There isn't anything from Tom Henderson or Kepler that say the PS5 Pro has doubled the RT units.
The 4× increase in RT performance doesn't even match doubling the RT units.
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JerryinSoCal
Member
Yeah let's focus on something that's 2 years away vs something coming out in 2-3 months.
Loxus
Member
Microsoft next Xbox may come next year, alongside GTA6.
Haven't you been reading this thread?
ResilientBanana
Member
Remember when people thought the PS4 Pro was going to be next gen and it wasn't? keep the hype in check people.
JerryinSoCal
Member
Yeah and I highly doubt that's going to happen, it may be a "wish" but anything they put out that's a "generational" leap would be priced so highly it would be only the most hardcore xbox fan or some people here with the spare cash
who would buy it. It seems far more likely that the next gen machine comes out in 2026.
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
WTF am I reading? What treachery is this? Of all the posters here, I did not expect you to be an unbeliever.
No, thanks. We don't need you. You're out of the PS5 Pro club. Don't let us catch you trying to buy one when it comes out.
MisterXDTV
Member
Regardless of PS5 Pro, Sony has to have a significant event in September for games
I'm fairly confident that a Showcase is coming soon
I'm fairly confident that a Showcase is coming soon
Mr.Phoenix
Member
so lets see...
36 RT units = 1RT performance index
60 RT units = 1.6RT index
120 RT units = 3.3RT index
Ps5pro is said to have 2-4x the RT performance.
How exactly does doubling RT cores per CU not explain this?
ChiefDada
Gold Member
I don't know what's been going on with Loxus lately. His most recent posts are real head scratchers.