Seahawks offer Russell Wilson $21M/year; wants more

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FrenchMovieTheme said:
you think they would dump bridgewater, who has shown promise and getting paid peanuts, to pay a guy $25 mil a year to take the team nowhere? putting russell wilson on the vikings doesn't turn the vikings into a playoff team so why bother?
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To keep asses in seats at your brand new stadium, maybe? And Minnesota plays in a lackluster enough division (I'm a Bears fan, I know this) that Wilson could take them from a 7-9 team to a 10-6 team (basically, taking the spot that Chicago and Detroit have filled in the past few years as the second best team in the division). Are they Super Bowl contenders at that point? Probably not without a good draft or two, but they'd be a playoff team.

Edit: Again, not that I think that the Vikings are going to do this, but that they would if they thought they could land him. This is the team that went out and got Brett Farve the last time they thought they were close (but I don't remember what that cost them, to be honest).
 
FrenchMovieTheme said:
oh i have no doubt that he would score a huge contract as a free agent, perhaps even that $25 mil (barring a complete dog shit season this year). i was just disputing that half the league would be lining up to pay him
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I'm with you on that. Like I said going to be interesting how this eventually shapes up. I personally think it's a mistake for Wilson to look for 25 million a season. At just 20 mil it's going to be hard for them to keep some of the pieces they have. At 25 mill it's going to be an extremely dicey situation. Just fascinating how this is turning out.
 
hodayathink said:
To keep asses in seats at your brand new stadium, maybe? And Minnesota plays in a lackluster enough division (I'm a Bears fan, I know this) that Wilson could take them from a 7-9 team to a 10-6 team (basically, taking the spot that Chicago and Detroit have filled in the past few years as the second best team in the division). Are they Super Bowl contenders at that point? Probably not without a good draft or two, but they'd be a playoff team.
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as long as erron is in that division (and stays healthy) no one else is winning it. and no, wussle isn't adding 3 wins to the vikings.

i've used this example before but i like to come back to it because it illustrates a good point between russel vs. andrew luck: lets take the respective afc/nfc title games this past year. through 3 quarters, andrew luck had 1 turnover and a rating of 40 and his team was down 38-7. through 3 quarters, russell wilson had 3 interceptions and a ZERO rating (fucking ZERO!) and his team was down by NINE points!

so if you think this is madden where you just take a guy, put him on another team and his "rating" stays the same you are wrong
 
FrenchMovieTheme said:
as long as erron is in that division (and stays healthy) no one else is winning it. and no, wussle isn't adding 3 wins to the vikings.

i've used this example before but i like to come back to it because it illustrates a good point between russel vs. andrew luck: lets take the respective afc/nfc title games this past year. through 3 quarters, andrew luck had 1 turnover and a rating of 40 and his team was down 38-7. through 3 quarters, russell wilson had 3 interceptions and a ZERO rating (fucking ZERO!) and his team was down by NINE points!

so if you think this is madden where you just take a guy, put him on another team and his "rating" stays the same you are wrong
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Talk about cherry picking stats, you're making Wussle seem like Dilfer. That was a horrible game by Russell but he is much better player than that. You can easily say that game was an anomaly. Might as well bring up the Falcons playoff game where Russell looked like superman and the vaunted Seattle D looked like swiss cheese if you want an opposite yet horrible example.
 
MetalFearSolid said:
Why are the Redskins left off this list?
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Because Dan Snyder is beyond incompetent. He still thinks RG3 is the future of the franchise. He wouldn't want to spend the money Wilson wants when, in his mind, he has a franchise QB already on the roster.

Plus if Wilson went there he'd suffer the same fate as RG3, since he'd be pressured or sacked on damn near every other drop back.
 
FrenchMovieTheme said:
as long as erron is in that division (and stays healthy) no one else is winning it. and no, wussle isn't adding 3 wins to the vikings.

i've used this example before but i like to come back to it because it illustrates a good point between russel vs. andrew luck: lets take the respective afc/nfc title games this past year. through 3 quarters, andrew luck had 1 turnover and a rating of 40 and his team was down 38-7. through 3 quarters, russell wilson had 3 interceptions and a ZERO rating (fucking ZERO!) and his team was down by NINE points!

so if you think this is madden where you just take a guy, put him on another team and his "rating" stays the same you are wrong
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I literally just said that they wouldn't win the division, that they'd place second and make the playoffs as a wild card (as has happened 3 of the last 4 years for the NFC North). If Russell Wilson were to magically transport to Vikings offense as it were now (yes, I'm aware that this isn't how it works), he would make them better than Bridgewater would, and I'd argue yes, maybe 2-3 wins better depending on how their defense plays this year (looking at their schedule with their current roster, I'd put them as an 8-8 team).

Edit: And just for fun, I looked this up. Minnesota scored 20.3 points per game, and gave up 21.4, if Wilson made them 2 points better per game on offense (which would still make them a middle of the pack offense, PPG wise, and 2 PPG worse than Seattle was last year), I would say that can easily be a 2-3 win difference depending on luck.
 
Captiosus said:
Because Dan Snyder is beyond incompetent. He still thinks RG3 is the future of the franchise. He wouldn't want to spend the money Wilson wants when, in his mind, he has a franchise QB already on the roster.

Plus if Wilson went there he'd suffer the same fate as RG3, since he'd be pressured or sacked on damn near every other drop back.
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Yup, which is why I was asking. But what if RG-III has some sort of resurgence, he might get paid due to the QB market as well obviously not as much as Wilson. Wilson just better football awareness, knows he needs to avoid unnecessary hits, his runs end either with him going out of bounds or sliding before a linebacker or safety can clock him unlike RG-III.
 
mr2xxx said:
Talk about cherry picking stats, you're making Wussle seem like Dilfer. That was a horrible game by Russell but he is much better player than that. You can easily say that game was an anomaly. Might as well bring up the Falcons playoff game where Russell looked like superman and the vaunted Seattle D looked like swiss cheese if you want an opposite yet horrible example.
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this wasn't to make wussle look bad. the point of this is look what he has around him. both luck and wussle had terrible championship games. the difference? wussle still had an opportunity to win the game in the 4th/overtime. andrew luck had no chance. why? because he doesn't have the seahawks defense.

hodayathink said:
I literally just said that they wouldn't win the division, that they'd place second and make the playoffs as a wild card (as has happened 3 of the last 4 years for the NFC North). If Russell Wilson were to magically transport to Vikings offense as it were now (yes, I'm aware that this isn't how it works), he would make them better than Bridgewater would, and I'd argue yes, maybe 2-3 wins better depending on how their defense plays this year (looking at their schedule with their current roster, I'd put them as an 8-8 team).

Edit: And just for fun, I looked this up. Minnesota scored 20.3 points per game, and gave up 21.4, if Wilson made them 2 points better per game on offense (which would still make them a middle of the pack offense, PPG wise, and 2 PPG worse than Seattle was last year), I would say that can easily be a 2-3 win difference depending on luck.
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russell wilsons record last year when his team gave up over 21 points: 2-5

so no, i don't agree with him improving the vikings by 3 games unless their defense became top 5
 
Played shitty vs Green bay. Gave away a Superbowl with an interception. Rejects $21 mil a year. When Keeping it Real goes wrong.
 
Give War A Chance said:
I agree completely. I think this contract is the first step into the abyss of mediocrity. You can't give 1/6th of your entire salary cap to one dude and expect to be as strong at every position as you have been in the past... unless you're the best drafters in the history of drafting...
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Which the Hawks haven't been as of late as Barnwell says.

Hawks are fucked in the next few years unless Carroll starts pulling some consistent draft magic. Aging expensive core means you have to go with bit guys in sometimes significant positions.

FrenchMovieTheme said:
lolollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

none of those teams would pay wussle $20-$22 mil right now for a variety of reasons (either they are already paying a QB lots of money or the QB they have is better than/equal to wussle or a combo of both)
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I dunno man. I think if a SB winning QB comes on the FA market everyone who doesn't have a top 10 QB starts bidding, including those bolded teams.

Just for fun, teams that we can safely say wouldn't: NE, Dallas, Atlanta, NO, Indy, Baltimore, GB, Pittsburgh, Detroit.

Teams that most likely wouldn't: Carolina, Denver (Peyton's old), SD (Rivers trade shit keeps popping up).

While I think teams like Minny and Miami like their guys, they'd still dump them for Russ in a heartbeat.

Looking at that list makes me realize a Russ FA would be the greatest thing ever. Half the league would be on his front door stop.
 
FrenchMovieTheme said:
it was 8 actually. so the vikings gave up 21 or more points in half their games. seattle gave up 21 or more 7 times in 19 games. are you trying to make a case that seattle and minnesota have around the same defense? lol
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First, you said more than 21 (to be exact, you said "over 21"). They gave up 21 once (and lost). It's 7.

And of course I'm not saying Minnesota's defense is as good as Seattle's. That would be ridiculous. I'm trying to say that he doesn't need Seattle's defense behind him to lead a team to the playoffs (which is what I'm arguing he would do in Minnesota, in theory).
 
FrenchMovieTheme said:
this wasn't to make wussle look bad. the point of this is look what he has around him. both luck and wussle had terrible championship games. the difference? wussle still had an opportunity to win the game in the 4th/overtime. andrew luck had no chance. why? because he doesn't have the seahawks defense.
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It's difficult to compare the two due to the way the teams are built. Luck has more weapons at WR/TE, while Russell has a better RB and D behind him. Luck has to do more and the offense is built to put points unlike The Hawks, they just don't have the weapons. Just analyzing them at QB Luck makes some head scratching decisions that lead to Interceptions and that's without them being down by a large amount. Wilson on the other is better at not making these mistakes. I guess it could be argued that Luck does dumb shit since he always has pressure to score unlike Wilson.
 
Wilson woul be a terrible QB on any other team. He's ridiculous for asking for that much
He's not even that great of a QB on the best team in the NFL it's the defense and the RB that carry him
 
carfo said:
Wilson woul be a terrible QB on any other team. He's ridiculous for asking for that much
He's not even that great of a QB on the best team in the NFL it's the defense and the RB that carry him
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Yet some other team will pay him $23 mil plus if he hits FA. Super Bowl winning QBs don't come on the market every year. That's the driving force at work here.

Plus as was pointed out he was 8th in QBR so it's not like he's a total chump.
 
hodayathink said:
First, you said more than 21 (to be exact, you said "over 21"). They gave up 21 once (and lost). It's 7.

And of course I'm not saying Minnesota's defense is as good as Seattle's. That would be ridiculous. I'm trying to say that he doesn't need Seattle's defense behind him to lead a team to the playoffs (which is what I'm arguing he would do in Minnesota, in theory).
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then i guess we'll just disagree. the numbers support that he actually DOES need an elite defense to win games. if you look at his career record when his team gives up 21 or more, more than 21, whatever you want to call it, it's not very good. you could say "well i think he would magically become a QB who doesn't need an elite defense to consistently win" but based on what? it wouldn't be based on anything that has happened to this point in this career

mr2xxx said:
It's difficult to compare the two due to the way the teams are built. Luck has more weapons at WR/TE, while Russell has a better RB and D behind him. Luck has to do more and the offense is built to put points unlike The Hawks, they just don't have the weapons. Just analyzing them at QB Luck makes some head scratching decisions that lead to Interceptions and that's without them being down by a large amount. Wilson on the other is better at not making these mistakes. I guess it could be argued that Luck does dumb shit since he always has pressure to score unlike Wilson.
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the point wasn't to compare who is a better QB (it's not even close, andrew luck is). the point is that in a game where both players were pretty fucking bad through 3 quarters, one had a chance to win it and the other didn't. i agree the teams are built differently: one has an elite defense, the other doesn't. one basically puts all the weight of the entire offense on the QB, the other doesn't. but however you want to break it down one thing is for sure: wilson has never had to worry about his defense giving up 38 points in 3 quarters (i'm not sure that seattle has given up that many points in a game over the past few years but i'm too lazy to look up anymore of these stupid ass stats)
 
Give War A Chance said:
He's not a rookie anymore. He's underpaid. Calm down, buddy.

He's 8th in the NFL in Total QBR. Above Rivers, Flacco, Luck, and Eli.
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1) Odell Beckham isn't a rookie anymore. Is he still underpaid? They can only get paid so much due to the new scale on the rookie contracts.

2) So you can only imagine how much better that team would be with a QB who can read defenses and still have that prolific rushing attack? Guys like Eli and Luck have zero run game and defense.
 
FrenchMovieTheme said:
then i guess we'll just disagree. the numbers support that he actually DOES need an elite defense to win games. if you look at his career record when his team gives up 21 or more, more than 21, whatever you want to call it, it's not very good. you could say "well i think he would magically become a QB who doesn't need an elite defense to consistently win" but based on what? it wouldn't be based on anything that has happened to this point in this career



the point wasn't to compare who is a better QB (it's not even close, andrew luck is). the point is that in a game where both players were pretty fucking bad through 3 quarters, one had a chance to win it and the other didn't. i agree the teams are built differently: one has an elite defense, the other doesn't. one basically puts all the weight of the entire offense on the QB, the other doesn't. but however you want to break it down one thing is for sure: wilson has never had to worry about his defense giving up 38 points in 3 quarters (i'm not sure that seattle has given up that many points in a game over the past few years but i'm too lazy to look up anymore of these stupid ass stats)
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That's where we disagree then, I think Wilson is easily up there with Luck. If you switched teams you'd get comparable results. Wilson has risen to the occasion plenty of times when needed.
 
mr2xxx said:
That's where we disagree then, I think Wilson is easily up there with Luck. If you switched teams you'd get comparable results. Wilson has risen to the occasion plenty of times when needed.
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you think the colts would make it to the superbowl with wilson at qb? lol no you don't fucking believe that
 
Seattle should keep playing hardball.

Wilson isn't stupid. He knows what he has in Seattle, and that he's not likely to find anywhere else willing to give him the sort of contract he's seeking. They don't give him the dollars he wants, what's he going to do -- go to Buffalo?
 
FrenchMovieTheme said:
the throw wasn't elite. if you are saying that elite QB's have made bad throws before well... of course they have. are you telling me that you think russell wilson is an elite QB?
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I never said he was elite, so don't put words in my mouth. The guy wins games. He's a top 6 or 7 QB. The pass was fine. When people talk about the Patriots winning, it's about Seattle calling the play, not Wilson throwing a pick. The pass was fine, which was my original argument.
 
People need to watch the superbowl again. Wilson was non existent for the first half and only kept his team in the game in the second half with lucky deep ball passes and good play calls (excluding the very last play) due to a terrible patriots defense.
 
FrenchMovieTheme said:
you think the colts would make it to the superbowl with wilson at qb? lol no you don't fucking believe that
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No, Colts would still be in the playoffs and Hawks would still have a championship. I'm saying there wouldn't be a drop off switching players i.e they are pretty equal.
 
BobLoblaw said:
I never said he was elite, so don't put words in my mouth. The guy wins games. He's a top 6 or 7 QB. The pass was fine. When people talk about the Patriots winning, it's about Seattle calling the play, not Wilson throwing a pick. The pass was fine, which was my original argument.
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if you think he's top 6 or 7 thats fine, i just disagree.

the pass wasn't fine, it was picked off. you don't take that chance, not with a championship on the line. that ball should not be in front of the receiver in that situation. you can't give the defense ANY chance to pick that. yes it was a great read by the CB and a great jump, but he should have never had a chance at that ball. incomplete at worst.

as for the "blame the seahawks calling a pass".... lol. then a QB is never at fault for any mistake he makes. shouldn't have called a pass if you didn't want a pick thrown Random NFL offensive coordinator! a bad call is a bad call but it doesn't absolve the QB from his part in the turnover
 
mr2xxx said:
No, Colts would still be in the playoffs and Hawks would still have a championship. I'm saying there wouldn't be a drop off switching players i.e they are pretty equal.
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It's hard to determine their value when they're in different situations.

Andrew Luck doesn't have a monster running back to keep defenses honest; Andrew Luck doesn't even have a respectable running back to keep anything honest. Indianapolis's play-action doesn't fool anyone. I'd very much like to see Wilson on a team where opposing defenses are consistently set against the pass.
 
mr2xxx said:
No, Colts would still be in the playoffs and Hawks would still have a championship. I'm saying there wouldn't be a drop off switching players i.e they are pretty equal.
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Would those read option plays that they draw up be as effective with Trent Truck and Dan Herron mastering their craft as the starting RB?
 
mr2xxx said:
No, Colts would still be in the playoffs and Hawks would still have a championship. I'm saying there wouldn't be a drop off switching players i.e they are pretty equal.
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they aren't even close to equal. you take away an elite defense and an elite running game from russell wilson and you think he takes a team to the AFC title game? an opinion is an opinion but i am shocked that you would actually believe that. the majority of wilsons big plays are on a) jump balls and b) broken plays where he scrambles around long enough to find someone basically wide open. i have rarely seen wilson take a snap, drop back in the pocket, read the defense, stand and deliver a completion in tight coverage/double coverage. im not saying he hasn't done it but if you just watch the two QB's play there is no comparison in my opinion
 
hodayathink said:
Would Andrew Luck be piling up stats throwing to Doug Baldwin and Jermaine Kearse?
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and only having to put up basically 20 points per game and getting as many single coverages as russell gets? absolutely. you could throw any average NFL WR on that squad and luck would easily put up great numbers
 
Striker said:
Would those read option plays that they draw up be as effective with Trent Truck and Dan Herron mastering their craft as the starting RB?
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You would have to have your offense based upon it but in general it relieves pressure from the run game. Morris was much better in the read option ZBS system than it is now. But It doesn't matter since I don't think Wilson is only good in a read option system.
 
FrenchMovieTheme said:
they aren't even close to equal. you take away an elite defense and an elite running game from russell wilson and you think he takes a team to the AFC title game? an opinion is an opinion but i am shocked that you would actually believe that. the majority of wilsons big plays are on a) jump balls and b) broken plays where he scrambles around long enough to find someone basically wide open. i have rarely seen wilson take a snap, drop back in the pocket, read the defense, stand and deliver a completion in tight coverage/double coverage. im not saying he hasn't done it but if you just watch the two QB's play there is no comparison in my opinion
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Growth would be diffirent if Luck and Wilson switched positions. Luck would be treated similarly to Wilson in Seattle and Wilson similarly to Luck with the Colts. Besides it's not like I'm some delusional fan like Kas, Wilson is a highly rated QB up there with Luck in all the advanced metric sites.
 
FrenchMovieTheme said:
if you think he's top 6 or 7 thats fine, i just disagree.

the pass wasn't fine, it was picked off. you don't take that chance, not with a championship on the line. that ball should not be in front of the receiver in that situation. you can't give the defense ANY chance to pick that. yes it was a great read by the CB and a great jump, but he should have never had a chance at that ball. incomplete at worst.

as for the "blame the seahawks calling a pass".... lol. then a QB is never at fault for any mistake he makes. shouldn't have called a pass if you didn't want a pick thrown Random NFL offensive coordinator! a bad call is a bad call but it doesn't absolve the QB from his part in the turnover
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If you want to make a case that he could have thrown it a little tighter then maybe he could've, but you put a bigger/better receiver in that position and it would still be catchable. That's why I say the pass was fine. Butler knew it was coming so he broke on the ball before the receiver could get to his spot. Wilson didn't blow the game. It was a bad call and Wilson ran it (blame him for that, not a bad throw).

Look, you're not gonna convince me otherwise, so I'll just leave it be. Wilson is a top 6 or 7 QB (behind Brady, Rogers, Luck, Romo, Manning, and maybe Roethlisberger/Flacco). He deserves his money after helping get the Seahawks to two straight Super Bowls. He's been paid nothing since he came in the league and now he deserves his money.
 
If Russell threw that ball low I think the receiver gets it falling into the end zone. It was a bad throw without enough zip on it for that situation. What's up with no play action at least too? That has to be a top five worst call in super bowl history if not the worst call. I'd be so pissed if I was a Seattle fan.
 
Russell Wilson on the Colts would be a disaster

Luck so many times has dudes draped on him in the pocket as he's unleashing a missile to someone

Wilson would just run around and take sacks constantly
 
mr2xxx said:
Growth would be diffirent if Luck and Wilson switched positions. Luck would be treated similarly to Wilson in Seattle and Wilson similarly to Luck with the Colts. Besides it's not like I'm some delusional fan like Kas, Wilson is a highly rated QB up there with Luck in all the advanced metric sites.
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There is not a team in the league that would take Russell Wilson over Luck, not even Seattle. In an open market Luck would have every team without an elite QB banging down his door while Wilson would be sitting in the corner waiting to be someone's fallback girl.
 
It doesn't matter what he's worth, it's about how much leverage he has on Seattle to make them pay. Wilson would be stupid not to squeeze them for every penny he could get. There's no point in giving a discount to a team that will cut you on a moments notice once it is convenient for them.
 
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