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[Anth0ny]

Because using as little amount of buttons as possible is actually good design and in line with the control philosophy of this game.

Doesn't feel very good to me.

Tapping B to use your item and holding B to bring up the item select screen is really annoying. Hopefully I get used to it.

 

[Big One]

How is it good design to not allow you to assign shortcuts for quickswitching? At least give the damn option. Nintendo has made so many poor design choices this gen in a desperate attempt to make everything somehow connected to motion/pointing.

The wheel IS the shortcuts in the game.

 

[hyduK]

The wheel IS the shortcuts in the game.

Yeah, except it's not a shortcut when the previous iterations were easier, quicker, just more intuitive in general. Especially when they say you have to use a lot more items more frequently this time around.

 

[SecretMoblin]

They constantly cause the overworld theme to fade in and out.

Bingo.

 

[zoukka]

How is it good design to not allow you to assign shortcuts for quickswitching? At least give the damn option. Nintendo has made so many poor design choices this gen in a desperate attempt to make everything somehow connected to motion/pointing.

dunnolol, why console games don't offer much freedom in customization?

 

[butter_stick]

Wat. Since when did turning your arm was involved in this? You don't have to turn your arm to select an item in Skyward Sword, just turn your hand very lightly

I phrased it poorly. Point stands.

 

[Branduil]

Not having played the game, I would think buttons would be faster, however, the wheel gives you access to all the items. So what it should be compared to is button time+the time spent remapping items to different buttons. In past Zelda games that has not been an insignificant portion of time.

 

[x3sphere]

The GS review read more like a 8.5. I think they dropped it a point lower to stir things up. I mean, I wouldn't put it past them... There's a shitload of people on their forums raging, and that's driving lots of traffic. Had Nintendo ran a massive ad campaign on the site, things would be different obviously. Most big gaming sites have no credibility in my eyes.

 

[hyduK]

dunnolol, why console games don't offer much freedom in customization?

Yeah, but it's backwards as fuck.

Previous Zelda games: you rarely have to switch items in dungeons, you're given the option to quickswitch between 3.
SS: you'll have to switch items in dungeons frequently, you have no option to quickswitch. instead here's this cumbersome system that we introduced only because it means a higher percentage of the game is dictated by motion/pointing controls.

 

[hyduK]

Not having played the game, I would think buttons would be faster, however, the wheel gives you access to all the items. So what it should be compared to is button time+the time spent remapping items to different buttons. In past Zelda games that has not been an insignificant portion of time.

In most Zelda games you could map the items and not have to change them up till the next dungeon. The only real exception was switching boots in the Water Temple.

 

[Refreshment.01]

The switching between items in TP is just as fast as switching between the items in SS. Once you actually play the game you'll get used to it and understand. The wheel is SS is pretty much the item switching in the previous Zelda games in a different form.

The system works really well and you get really fast at it with practice. The problem comes from one item equipped at a time, it agravates when one considers that Skyward its a Zelda game that is constantly using many different items to progress. So theres too much switching.

Because using as little amount of buttons as possible is actually good design and in line with the control philosophy of this game.

Allowing the option to map some extra items to left and right on the Dpad wouldn't complicate matters too much. Those that would have found it hard could have stick to switching items just with the wheel.

You didn't always know what items you would need in the dungeon, though. And plenty of switching had to be done outside of the dungeons.

You see what you said is really interesting. In this game even if you know dungeons like the back of your hand you'll still need to switch items like hell. Funny thing is that there are like 3 items (more or less) that get used a lot, had Nintendo allowed left and right to map some stuff it would have made the operation a bit more optimal.

 

[Branduil]

In most Zelda games you could map the items and not have to change them up till the next dungeon. The only real exception was switching boots in the Water Temple.

You didn't always know what items you would need in the dungeon, though. And plenty of switching had to be done outside of the dungeons.

 

[zoukka]

i'll leave the judgement of the item wheel to the day I try it. Just like most of the functions in SS m+, the stuff isn't as fast as just one button in a traditional game, no-one can argue against that, but the wjole point is to make things feel better and more intuitive to everyone. If you don't have some disability in your wrist, I highly doubt, that you have any serious problems with the items. If it's a matter of principle, then I think SS will be a painful experience.

 

[Evlar]

In most Zelda games you could map the items and not have to change them up till the next dungeon. The only real exception was switching boots in the Water Temple.

Not my recollection at all... In most Zelda titles I would switch weapons quite frequently, particularly late in the game. Only in the two most recent games has the item selection been more static, and that's due to the dungeon design that provided use for specialty items in the dungeons you find them and practically nowhere else. People bitched about that (rightfully) and Skyward Sword has reportedly corrected that... you'll need, or at least want, to use more than one or two items in a dungeon.

 

[Branduil]

The spinner was gravely underused.

 

[defferoo]

i think the idea was that you now have fewer items, and you'd use them so much that you eventually remember their position in the item wheel. so eventually you don't even really need the pointer icon to select an item, you'd just move your wrist in the direction you've associated with that item (muscle memory/learning). As for how well it was implemented, I can't be sure because i've never played the game.

 

[hyduK]

The spinner was gravely underused.

Yeah, but that one boss man...

 

[GregLombardi]

The spinner was gravely underused.

Are you talking about in TP?

It was so brilliant too. Had the most fun in a long time that I've ever had using that.

 

[hyduK]

For anyone that's played, how is the actual strategy element implemented? I realize the game apparently controls fine (as fine as motion controls can in their current state), but is it really just simon says?

ie. If I kill one enemy, do I use the same pattern to kill all of that enemy?

 

[SecretMoblin]

The spinner was gravely underused.

It was a neat idea that had limited utility. The bow & arrow, hookshot, and boomerang are staples because they have multiple uses. It looks there was a concerted effort to make sure items in Skyward Sword were meaningful and had uses that extended beyond a few puzzles here and there.

 

[StevieP]

For anyone that's played, how is the actual strategy element implemented? I realize the game apparently controls fine (as fine as motion controls can in their current state), but is it really just simon says?

ie. If I kill one enemy, do I use the same pattern to kill all of that enemy?

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

Gaming was so much more fun when I didn't stop to excessively pre-evaluate the experiences I was going to have into an exacting quantification. Our necessity to rely on such values stems from the very essence of who most of us were before we came to GAF, OCD-level hobbyists. For the first world society has pushed us to the social margin, and we must find something minuscule and make it grand for it in turn to feel important. Therein once a stated gold standard has been built: 100%, 10/10, A+, and our community formed, it is no wonder that we return to the problem at hand: ourselves. Once again, finding something minuscule and making it grand, when being different/average is perfectly fine. Can gaming ever be elevated to art if we are constantly seeking to quantify its experiences? Does the best movie win best picture every year at the Oscars? Hell no. Were music greats like Bob Dylan ever deterred by mediocre album reviews? Who cares. Things are good in themselves, and time will dictate greatness. It surely has for OoT. Having overreacted to the scores for Skyward Sword, I find it best to disregard the hard-numbered periphery of the community and enjoy it for what I expect it to be: fun. If we can even remember it in 25 years, it'll surely be a masterpiece then. Just saying.

I red all your post visualizing Kubrick lecturing it

 

[DangerStepp]

My favorite part is where people whip out a completely unrelated game that received a comparable or higher score to make this post:

"So he's basically trying to say that ____________ is better than this?!"

Good on Gamespot. Haven't read the review. Will read when I finish the game. But this industry needs more varied opinions. Good for the medium. It shouldn't be one big circle jerk.

But people get angry if it's not. That's what makes it all worth while

Spoiler

and hilarious

.

 

[darkjedi187]

To be clear, he always has access to the Varia Suit; he just needs it to be authorized for use.

Nice!

 

[apana]

For all the endless complaints about the Zelda community I still have faith that if it is truly a classic we will be able to recognize it.

I agree with the Gamespot's 7.5 score.

You played it?

 

[artist]

I agree with the Gamespot's 7.5 score.

 

[GamerSoul]

It lacks constant jumping.

I'm not the only who does that? lol

The spinner was gravely underused.

very true.

 

[butter_stick]

Because using as little amount of buttons as possible is actually good design and in line with the control philosophy of this game.

Even if this was true (I disagree), how is putting shield and bottles on their own sub menu on - not directly going against this mentality?

 

[ASIS]

TP: press a direction on the D-Pad.
SS: hold B. turn your arm to the direction of the item you want. Release B. Unless you want to use a bottle. Then use -

You simply can't argue SS' system is faster or easier.

What you said isn't true.

TP: press minus to pause, select the items and assign them to D-pads, press minus again to quit the pause screen, press the direction on the D-pad, press B to use item.

SS: press B, tilt item, release, done.

 

[Refreshment.01]

i'll leave the judgement of the item wheel to the day I try it. Just like most of the functions in SS m+, the stuff isn't as fast as just one button in a traditional game, no-one can argue against that, but the wjole point is to make things feel better and more intuitive to everyone. If you don't have some disability in your wrist, I highly doubt, that you have any serious problems with the items. If it's a matter of principle, then I think SS will be a painful experience.

There's not much judgment to be made, you don't have to worry, the motion wheel works fine. The problem is that one item is in the buffer so you switch a lot. Reminds me of playing Link's Awaking on the gameboy with one selected item at the time, just that the selection process is a lot faster an intuitive in Skyward.

Kind of surprised in the end Nintendo did not use the Dpad left and right as 2 extra buffers for items since they rely on "-" for another equipment screen, so it's not like the user wouldn't be managing extra keys for equipment anyway.

Also hope you guys like Banjo Kazzoie. Hehehehehe

 

[butter_stick]

What you said isn't true.

TP: press minus to pause, select the items and assign them to D-pads, press minus again to quit the pause screen, press the direction on the D-pad, press B to use item.

SS: press B, tilt item, release, done.

TP: do it once every hour
SS: do it multiple times in an hour.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Even if this was true (I disagree), how is putting shield and bottles on their own sub menu on - not directly going against this mentality?

That's the Adventure Pouch, and you put a bunch of other stuff in there apparently.

 

[ASIS]

For anyone that's played, how is the actual strategy element implemented? I realize the game apparently controls fine (as fine as motion controls can in their current state), but is it really just simon says?

ie. If I kill one enemy, do I use the same pattern to kill all of that enemy?

Absolutely not, not by a long shot.

For instance:

Spoiler

when I fight bokoblins, I wait until they drop their defense to hit them, and sometimes I'd parry.

Then you have the technoblins, who behave like bokoblins but they have electric rods instead of their usual weapon, Meaning that if you hit them while they're defending, you'd still lose health. So what I do here, is charge up my sword, wait for them to attack and parry, hit them with a skyward strike and then a final blow.It might take a bit longer but you are not going to lose any health.

This is just one example.

TP: do it once every hour
SS: do it multiple times in an hour.

Doesn't mean it's faster or more intuitive.

 

[butter_stick]

Yes, it does.

 

[Dascu]

TP: do it once every hour
SS: do it multiple times in an hour.

I'd say it's a sign of good puzzle and combat design that you often have to switch between items and weapons. And switching between them is terribly faster than going into a menu and assigning them to a D-pad.

 

[Tain]

35 hours? Hope not. That sounds too long.

 

[snesfreak]

butter_stick's nitpicking of every little thing is hilarious.

 

[ASIS]

Yes, it does.

Unless you want to explain yourself better, we are only going in circles here.

In TP you had to use two buttons for one item, that's not the case with SS. Hell you can even do it while dashing in SS. Very simple, doesn't take more than a second to switch items.

 

[Amir0x]

Okay, I know a lot of other reviewers and even people on here have said that maybe they aren't the biggest fans of the idea of using motion controls, or that they don't add a lot to the combat, but has anyone else said that they flat out fail to work like Gamespot did?

Here's the best and most consise dissection of the motion+ control problem I've seen yet, from fellow GAFer jarosh:

some spoiler-free thoughts on the combat:

i feel that during combat, motion controls and motion plus in particular don't add as much as people might have expected or wished for. i certainly wouldn't call any of it "revolutionary". but then, zelda has never been about a deep and complex combat system and this doesn't change with skyward sword. the necessity of having to slash at the right angle with certain enemy types turned out to be a superficial addition at best for me. more interesting are the defense/offense mechanics of the shield and the strategic back and forth between sword and shield. but this isn't a requirement nearly often enough.

reviewers have mentioned the slower combat and many consider this to be a positive or simply don't mind because it is a part of seemingly "deeper combat mechanics". but to me, since i'm not really getting any more satisfaction out of the combat than i would have in twilight princess, this is a negative factor, one that isn't outweighed by the supposedly newly gained strategic depth.

the design, choreography and timing of the fights in particular and the enemy encounters as a whole haven't changed much from earlier 3d zelda games. they still occur, for the most part, in very much the same way they have in twilight princess. and it's clear to me that this design was never intended for the kind of slower, more methodical approach to combat that we're seeing in skyward sword now. this is particularly evident once you're surrounded by lesser enemies that all require correctly angled slashes. there is no good system in place to dispatch with a vicious crowd of enemies methodically or even slolwly and with precision, even though the mechanics of the swordplay are meant to be employed in just such a fashion. so despite the precision of the sword controls, the very mechanics of the individual fights remain both rigid (much like the enemy a.i.) and imprecise. clearly these enemies move and behave in a way that begs for a more old-fashioned approach. and there's a disconnect here that disrupts the flow of adventuring.

and maybe this dichotomy, this contrast of old and new design is what some reviewers have been trying to express when they talk about the strange disconnect between two opposing design philosophies and their manifestations as something that always kind of wants to be fresh and new but is still held back by old conventions and quirks that now seem to clash with the bolder, newer ideas. i can even sort of understand the seemingly odd commentary (i believe it was egm's?) regarding the combat in twilight princess: something about how the motion controls felt better or were easier or more straightforward and therefore "better" in that game. they just weren't in the way of adventuring, exploring, puzzle solving, because they didn't require much time OR thought OR precision.

maybe skyward sword would have been a better game overall if they'd decided to either abandon all of those old conventions or stick with them and all their implications and quirks. i can't say for sure. at least in terms of combat and motion controls, being only "halfway there" seems to have done the game a disservice. the combat isn't deeper or more satisfying; what was a means to an end in previous 3d zelda games has now become a minor nuisance.

i'm gonna respond to some of the things you mentioned and then go into some more general impressions... as usual, spoiler-free.

about the linearity: the reason why this sticks out so much probably has to do with three things:

1) the incessant handholding, guiding and frequent re-iteration of obvious concepts by fi, often immediately after another character just explained the same thing in great detail. frequently this is about your next task. example: some character: "maybe there's something interesting on top of that tree!", fi appears: "master! blah blah blah! i have analyzed the situation! blah blah blah! i have determined the following things blah blah blah i can now say with 85% probabality that your next task is up on that tree! blah blah blah! this tree is very dangerous! are you sure you are ready? blah blah blah! wait! i sense that there's something very evil and dangerous behind this giant boss door! i am 90% sure it is a boss. bosses are very dangerous! are you ready to fight this boss? blah blah blah."... where was i? oh yeah:

2) dowsing. this mechanic is often forced on you in an obnoxious way. but it is unnecessary 90% of the time. we used to just explore in previous zelda games. remember? if you rely on dowsing, a big chunk of the exploration will be taken away from you. my advice: ignore it. it will be forced on you over and over. fi will remind you, the dowsing symbol will flash on screen and an alert sound will go off and won't stop until you go into dowsing mode and then cancel.

3) the fractured and isolated nature of the pre-dungeon segments. yes, some of them are more open and quite big even (in fact, sometimes these areas are more elaborate and longer than the actual dungeon!), but i certainly wouldn't call any of what you're doing in them "free exploration". the forest, for example, felt too boxy and small to me. it isn't so much the size of the maps, but the design of them. you always move from point a to point b. sure, sometimes you have to find a handful of things and they're scattered around a somewhat bigger area. and, lo and behold, those are definitely the coolest parts during those segments. once again though, as soon as something ISN'T just "point a to point b" you will get lots of WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE hints and the game will, well, "strongly encourage" you to use dowsing. i can't say there's a lot in this game that fits my definition of "exploration".

one more thing about fi: sure, we could just ignore her and not care about her. navi was annoying too, and we managed. the problem with fi is twofold: not only are we coming from twilight princess, which had midna, an interesting character with actual depth, shrouded in mystery, who also played an important role in the game and even took part in the gameplay occasionally, but fi is also TREATED and implented like midna, not like navi. she clearly is supposed to be the new midna and she just interrupts the game at every opportunity. but she hardly has anything interesting to say and has no gameplay relevance. in fact, she frequently re-iterates stuff you already know instead, usually in a much too long-winded fashion.


god, i sound so negative. i know! you guys probably think i HATE the game or something. but i like it! a lot! really! i just wouldn't say it's a big step forward for the franchise or anything. maybe in a few ways, but in some imporant ones it isn't. it might be a minor step back instead. still, it's a good game. maybe great even. but i'll have to finish it first to say for sure. so here are some more positive notes:

- the third dungeon is really the first great dungeon. loved it. lots of interesting ideas and puzzles.
- there's lots of interesting content and puzzles in the pre-dungeon areas.
- difficulty: skyward sword is definitely harder than both twilight princess and oot. i never died in tp, but have died several times in ss already. (as a rule, i never use potions or fairies though.)
- without spoiling anything: most of the new items are TONS of fun and definitely get plenty of use outside of the dungeons! big plus.
- motion controls SHINE with pretty much everything that isn't sword fighting. again, not gonna spoil anything, but the items that use motion plus are all great fun to use and usually work flawlessly.
- about the music: while some of the dungeon themes are very repetitive and annoying (almost) everything outside of the dungeons is amazing and skyloft and the different sky themes are all fantastic.
- i find those later trials (won't mention them by name) that some reviewers have complained about quite an interesting and enjoyable change of pace and have had no problems with them.
- i dig the musical instrument even though it can be a bit finnicky. maybe i just like the tunes that now sound so much better and more elaborate than in any previous zelda game
- most of the boss fights are great and quite unique mechanically, just don't expect them to be super hard (they're DEFINITELY harder than the ones in tp though).

Particularly in his combat analysis, there represents a far better problem of the issue that I've seen anyone else suggest to date. He discusses the imprecise nature of the controls, the seeming disconnect between old zelda design enemies and new controls. It's a very nuanced analysis. It's what leads me to believe a site like Gamespot giving the game a 7.5 - which I'm inherently more inclined to believe since it's clearly not being influenced by publishing strong arming than IGN's embarrassing cum-guzzling 10.0 - is based on real problems, even though they perhaps weren't nearly as eloquently or accurately stated.

I know I'll love Skyward Sword, even though combat was the low point of the demo for me I felt everything else sort of made up for it. But there are real issues here.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I had to switch items in TP pretty often because I'd occasionally just try things until I figured it out.

There's no reason for me to go in to the Temple of Time or whatever that temple was with the spinner equipped.

 

[butter_stick]

I'd say it's a sign of good puzzle and combat design that you often have to switch between items and weapons. And switching between them is terribly faster than going into a menu and assigning them to a D-pad.

I seriously doubt there is a puzzle in SS that requires you to use more than 3 items in a go.

Here, I'll propose a superior system. Tap D-pad to "equip" an item on B. hold it to enter the same menu you get by holding B now and equip the item to that D-Pad button. Boom, and I don't even work for a video game company.

 

[Amir0x]

I finally learned how to deal with situations like these...

also holy fucking shit

Yoshichan dude...jesus dude. LOL. You actually made that, wow.

You need to disconnect your love of a franchise from perhaps the reality that it can be flawed. There is no perfect game, and some are far less perfect than others. First, who cares what others think. In the end your apparent slavish blind devotion to the franchise means you're not going to be objective anyway - you'll love it. So why do you care? And second, it's a game. It's good there is criticism going on. It can lead to real changes that make your franchise even better.

 

[Caelus]

The combat is a step forward, as for the responsiveness for the controls, I own the original WM+ and the controls are absolutely flawless. I'm not joking. I never had to calibrate them when playing the game even when playing for more than 7 hours at a time, while I had to calibrate many times during the demo.

 

[Lunar15]

A modern Zelda game is polarizing? Some people focus on the steps forward and others focus on the steps back?

I'm completely shocked.

 

[Caelus]

Here, I'll propose a superior system. Tap D-pad to "equip" an item on B. hold it to enter the same menu you get by holding B now and equip the item to that D-Pad button. Boom, and I don't even work for a video game company.

That'd make the HUD kind of ugly, since you always need to know what items are equipped on the d-pad, while the only B-button method only has one Wiimote button on the top right of the screen.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Unless you want to explain yourself better, we are only going in circles here.

Or you can read the post i made at the top of this page and see whats the issue with the SS select system. Its really good but have its issues, issues that Nintendo could have mitigated even more withouth much inconvinience.

I seriously doubt there is a puzzle in SS that requires you to use more than 3 items in a go.

Yes there are.

 

[butter_stick]

That'd make the HUD kind of ugly, since you always need to know what items are equipped on the d-pad, while the only B-button method only has one Wiimote button on the top right of the screen.

Doesn't it always show the D-Pad? I'm sure in videos I've seen...whatshername, the blue girl on screen on "down".

And I had no issue with TP's HUD, so ehh.

 

[Dascu]

I seriously doubt there is a puzzle in SS that requires you to use more than 3 items in a go.

But I won't have to constantly pause the game and go into a menu to re-assign weapons between puzzles.

Here, I'll propose a superior system. Tap D-pad to "equip" an item on B. hold it to enter the same menu you get by holding B now and equip the item to that D-Pad button. Boom, and I don't even work for a video game company.

That's still more button-presses (and analog stick selection) and less intuitive than the current dial system in SS.


As for the HUD, you can completely turn off everything on the right-hand side of the screen on the Pro configuration.

 

[Caelus]

Doesn't it always show the D-Pad? I'm sure in videos I've seen...whatshername, the blue girl on screen on "down".

No, the pro option only shows the b-button, health and rupees and shield meter. It only shows Fi when your health is low.

 

[ASIS]

The combat is a step forward, as for the responsiveness for the controls, I own the original WM+ and the controls are absolutely flawless. I'm not joking. I never had to calibrate them when playing the game even when playing for more than 7 hours at a time, while I had to calibrate many times during the demo.

Re calibrate for combat? That never happens, the only time you have to calibrate is when you are aiming. The reason why you have to do it is because the WM+ recognizes the position you first entered "aiming" mode as the center. So if you enter the mode with the Wiimote on the far right, guess what? you are going to have to calibrate again to get the position you like.


Once you wrap your head around it, everything makes sense. But the controls aren't instinctive, you can't just "pick it up" and be a master in a second. You have to understand how the game is being controlled, once you do, all is well (much better then well actually).