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[Lupin25]

The Last Guardian was probably sent to die after such a long dev-cycle combined with previous failures from the studio
(ie. KNACK )

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Bloodborne is literally the best game of all time.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Maybe if Japan Studio made games people want, they'd sell more games. Also taking forever to make Last Guardian doesnt help. Gaming trends/tastes last a long time. If a studio cant figure out how to make a great selling game with first party support they got issues.

If budget is the issue why they cant make big budget games, that's fine. Focus on indie trends that sell (which are rogue and metroidvaia). Nobody in the past 5 years is asking for Papaton, Everybody's Golf, Locoroco and Knack 2.

 

[Editaur]

I think the goal is to shape Square Enix to be the new Sony Japan.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Sony tried that and Japan Studio proved they weren't up to it. Asobi is working on a AAA game though. Sony's also promoting Silent Hill 2, Ronin,

Do they need to be exclusive? They received significant funding and promotion from Sony.

I just feel like since the failure of Japan Studio, Sony just gave up on Japanese studios after that. To my knowledge, they only have Team Asobi and Polyphony. They have many Western developers though. Silent Hill 2 is being handled by Team Bloober and Ronin is from Team Ninja. They are getting funding from Sony, but what I mean is developed from Sony’s first party internal studios.

 

[Keihart]

While I think you're massively overplaying the input of Japan Studio and massively understating the talent and creativity of those 3rd party devs who worked with JS; the fact of the matter is (which is what your diatribe is sorely missing) is that the function within Japan Studio that cultivated these quirky Japanese indie games, still exists within Sony Japan... was rolled into XDEV and currently still works with the same community of creative developers in Japan.

So nothing you're remarking on, was in even lost in the Japan Studio restructuring. Only the Japan Studio main dev team who worked directly on Siren, Freedom Wars, The Puppeteer and Gravity Rush etc.

If you are gonna include Puppeteer and Freedom wars you should include other games too like Patapon or Bloodborne, both of those games are third party collaborations.
Edit: i guess i'm wrong about Puppeteer, couldn't find any info about other devs on it. Freedom wars was definetly not only Japan Studios tho.

 

[CamHostage]

Gravity Rush is my personal favorite thing Sony's ever made. They didn't need saving in my opinion. Just invest a bit more in marketing.

Gravity Rush 2 has maybe the greatest advertisement ever made (albeit its 4 minutes, so I don't know where they would have showed it aside from the internet...) Unfortunately, that didn't help it make much of an impact in Japan, but they did what they could for a niche and tough-to-explain game concept.

If their games weren't giant sellers they could bolster PS+ Extra.

I think that would have been really cool, if PS+ Extra was about boutique gifts in the subscription service. (I had a similar idea of how they could have done bonus games in the subscription plan, not just throwing in their big games a few months after but actually creating games for the service.)

However, the otaku audience on PlayStation isn't what it was 20-30 years ago, and the idea of a comparison where you go, "OK, it's November 20XX and Xbox Game Pass is giving away the brand new Halo, while on PlayStation the new game of the month is Echochrome 3...", how would that stack up?

Also enjoyed Echochrome, Tokyo Jungle, Puppeteer, Folklore and more. These are literally some of Sony's best games.

Well, you should be looking to the indie scene, not Sony, if you want to see a future for games like these. 2 of those 4 games were made by external studios (Folklore by Game Republic and Tokyo Jungle by Crispy's; one is unfortunately closed and the other has no web presence since 2015 unfortunately.) Echochrome was made out of the C.A.M.P. program and the main guy for those two games is in education, while the other credited director I'm not sure about but he has no credits since so maybe he was gone or maybe he was involved with Rayspace or something else (the Echochrome side-game Echoshift was done by Artoon, but that group got sucked into AQ plus the director of Echoshift had already moved onto Capcom.) Puppeteer's director was Gavin Moore and he was there through Demon's Souls as creative director collaborating with Bluepoint and From and all teams involved; it's not the last we've heard of him.

I like a lot of games on your list (don't love any of them outright enough to say they are some of Sony's best games,) but either way, unless Sony had contracted new studios specifically for making the little games Sony couldn't find a place for anymore with Japan Studio (or reformed its internal studios away from the big Rayspaces or Knacks or Last Guardians or even Gravity Dazes that it was struggling with in terms of being massive projects and minor sales, to make just little PSP-style games again for that same questionable market,) those games were not being made anymore, internally or externally.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

If you are gonna include Puppeteer and Freedom wars you should include other games too like Patapon or Bloodborne, both of those games are third party collaborations.
Edit: i guess i'm wrong about Puppeteer, couldn't find any info about other devs on it. Freedom wars was definetly not only Japan Studios tho.

No. Freedom Wars was developed by Japan Studio. Dimps did the animation work. They're an animation studio. Japan Studio developed the game. No other game dev was involved. So both Freedom Wars and The Puppeteer are solely Japan Studio games.

 

[CamHostage]

I just feel like since the failure of Japan Studio, Sony just gave up on Japanese studios after that. To my knowledge, they only have Team Asobi and Polyphony. They have many Western developers though. Silent Hill 2 is being handled by Team Bloober and Ronin is from Team Ninja. They are getting funding from Sony, but what I mean is developed from Sony’s first party internal studios.

But they didn't own most of the studios who made Japan Studios games before, either. FromSoft, ClapHanz, Millennium Kitchen, Dimps, Shift, Pyramid, Q-Games and Q Entertainment, Marvelous AQL, Alfa System, Level-5... lots of Japanese studios made games under the Japan Studio banner (much like 989 was mostly producers managing external team back in its day.) Them going out to Team Ninja or Fromsoft (Silent Hill 2 is not produced by PlayStation AFAWK, it just happens to be an exclusive for whatever relationship/financial reasons Final Fantasy VIIr is exclusive to PlayStation) is something they could and still will do, with or without a Japan Studio office to manage the relationship. (BTW, now this process would come through the centralized XDEV group, who are the contact point for Rise of the Ronin and hopefully more games to come...)

I would personally like it if Sony had more internal Japanese development studios like Polyphony Digital and Team Asobi, but them not having these groups in-house doesn't mean they won't spend money on Japanese game designers if a product pitch lines up with an interest in the market. It also doesn't have any bearing on the quality or production budget of the project either (as is pretty evident from recent projects.) I'd personally like it mostly because it'd make me feel more secure that I'd be getting some of these types of Japanese games I've loved over the years on PlayStation, although looking at Japan Studio's output ever since PS Vita went away, I've not really been getting these types of Japanese games I've loved on PlayStation from PlayStation anyway.

 

[CamHostage]

No. Freedom Wars was developed by Japan Studio. Dimps did the animation work. They're an animation studio. Japan Studio developed the game. No other game dev was involved. So both Freedom Wars and The Puppeteer are solely Japan Studio games.

I think you're confusing Dimps with a different studio? Dimps makes all kinds of games (they made all the Sonic Advance games, they're the co-dev with Capcom on SF 4/5, they make some of the Dragon Ball and SAO games...) And then Shift was also heavily involved in Freedom Wars, and Shift has been around a long time too (they're currently known for God Eater and Code Vein.)

Freedom Wars looks to have been a pretty typical Japan Studios project, with a producer and/or director at the main Sony office but the bulk of the work (including a lot of creative management) handled by the external developer. It's a familiar Japanese studio structure (Nintendo works this way often, as do BN and Square and others,) sometimes it's tough to pull the credits apart from just what's on the box or title screen, but the staff credits roll is pretty clear for Freedom Wars, maybe you had a different game in mind?

https://www.mobygames.com/game/ps-vita/freedom-wars/credits

Puppeteer was solely Japan Studio (aside from the usual contracted help), and was made in that time that the studio was trying to regroup under Allan Becker and come back strong on the console front with stuff like this and Rain and eventually Knack and The Last Guardian. That was one of a couple "Japan Studios is BACK!!" efforts which unfortunately didn't really bring Japan Studios back well enough to last forever.

https://kotaku.com/how-sonys-most-creative-studio-rose-from-the-ashes-1458030068
https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/06/30/how-playstationas-japan-studio-stands-out-a-ign-first

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I just feel like since the failure of Japan Studio, Sony just gave up on Japanese studios after that. To my knowledge, they only have Team Asobi and Polyphony. They have many Western developers though. Silent Hill 2 is being handled by Team Bloober and Ronin is from Team Ninja. They are getting funding from Sony, but what I mean is developed from Sony’s first party internal studios.

And I've illustrated to you that the vast major of Japan Studio games weren't even developed by Japan Studio in the first place. 95 percent of their titles were developed externally.

The last game they developed internally was Knack 2 in 2017.

Japan Studio never had a significant development team aside from the group that did Legend of Dragoon and that was shortlived after it did not perform well, particularly in Japan.

 

[Torrent of Pork]

Sounds like Sony doesn't know how to manage their Japanese studios.

 

[hyperbertha]

What a load of crap

PS3/360 gen there was a lot of western propaganda against japanese games and developers.
It affected the public perception so much that even when japanese devs made awesome games, people would find excuses to diminish their efforts.

One example that comes to mind is with Dark Souls. I remember it pretty well some people saying that it only did well and was fun because it was a "western game made by a japanese dev" and that it was only good because they were influenced by western RPGs.

Due to the PS3 not meeting expectations, Sony was desperate during the beginning of the PS4 gen. When they realized Xbox and Nintendo had failed with their proposed consoles, they knew there was the opportunity to get back a big share of the western market.
And to do that, they decided to focus mostly on the west and gradually move away from Japan.

Their plan worked, and their games are meant to appeal to the western market primarily.
Since Nintendo is back on their feet with the Switch and has literally dominated Japan, they have no reason to try to win back that market.

Their focus is now 100% on the western market now, because that's their only hope of survival.
The same applies to Microsoft. But now that Microsoft is fighting back, things are getting heated in the west.

What propaganda are you talking about?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

But they didn't own most of the studios who made Japan Studios games before, either. FromSoft, ClapHanz, Millennium Kitchen, Dimps, Shift, Pyramid, Q-Games and Q Entertainment, Marvelous AQL, Alfa System, Level-5... lots of Japanese studios made games under the Japan Studio banner (much like 989 was mostly producers managing external team back in its day.) Them going out to Team Ninja or Fromsoft (Silent Hill 2 is not produced by PlayStation AFAWK, it just happens to be an exclusive for whatever relationship/financial reasons Final Fantasy VIIr is exclusive to PlayStation) is something they could and still will do, with or without a Japan Studio office to manage the relationship. (BTW, now this process would come through the centralized XDEV group, who are the contact point for Rise of the Ronin and hopefully more games to come...)

I would personally like it if Sony had more internal Japanese development studios like Polyphony Digital and Team Asobi, but them not having these groups in-house doesn't mean they won't spend money on Japanese game designers if a product pitch lines up with an interest in the market. It also doesn't have any bearing on the quality or production budget of the project either (as is pretty evident from recent projects.) I'd personally like it mostly because it'd make me feel more secure that I'd be getting some of these types of Japanese games I've loved over the years on PlayStation, although looking at Japan Studio's output ever since PS Vita went away, I've not really been getting these types of Japanese games I've loved on PlayStation from PlayStation anyway.

I actually think closing Japan Studio makes internal Japanese development significantly more likely.

Their plan was to grow Team Asobi to 100 people from 35 people working on a larger game. If successful, you could see this team continue to grow.

Separating XDEV and the internal studios makes a lot of sense. Though I think what you need is a Japanese support studio that can help internal and external developers.

 

[hyperbertha]

It seems to me that many in here are confused and don't even know that a lot of the games they think were made by Japan Studio, were actually made by 3rd Party Japanese devs.

• The Last Guardian / Ico / Shadow of the Colossus - Team Ico - now not part of Japan Studio
• Bloodborne - FromSoftware - 3rd party studio owned by Kadokawa games
• Hot Shots Tennis / Everybody's Golf - Clap Hanz - 3rd party
• Patapon / Locoroco - Pyramid - 3rd party
• Soul Sacrifice - Marvelous AQL - 3rd party
• Death Stranding - Kojima Productions - 3rd party

None of these studios were affected by Sony's restructuring of their Japan Studio, and all of them can and will continue to make exclusive games for PS.

So again... outside of Gravity Rush, Freedom Wars and The Puppeteer (all of which sold like shit), what has Japan Studio made in the last decade that justifies them being kept open?

The reality is that XDEV, Team ASOBI, Polyphony were the only productive parts of the studio, and so Sony doubling down on them, plus their relationships with the 3rd party Japanese studios listed above makes total waaaay more sense than trying to give Japan Studio any more chances to put out anything worthwhile.

So all arguments about Sony losing its Japanese identity are total bollocks.

Sony has 3rd party exclusives from FromSoft, Capcom, and a metric crap tonne of other Japanese devs in the pipeline.... you know... the ones whose games actually sell internationally.

All the best Japanese exclusives for Playstation in the past 20 years have been made by 3rd party devs. So contracting 3rd party studios has proven to be a winning strategy.

Sony no longer has the Japanese exclusive portfolio they used to have in the 00s. They have japanese games, but they are multiplatform. What use is your 'japanese identity' when xbox has the same fucking games? Yea sony is dead in japan.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Sony no longer has the Japanese exclusive portfolio they used to have in the 00s. They have japanese games, but they are multiplatform. What use is your 'japanese identity' when xbox has the same fucking games? Yea sony is dead in japan.

Be an adult and recognize that the market changes over time.

Sony published a lot of games from minor Japanese studios. These studios either no longer exist due to their games not selling well in Japan or internationally or they've moved on to develop mobile games because there is more money in that than developing console games.

The studios that still produce console games need to make games on as many platforms as possible because they need as much exposure as possible especially internationally.

Really mobile has always been king in Japan. The PSP sold better in Japan than the PS1 and just under the PS2.

Sony's best way to maintain support in Japan would be to put out a PS4 Mobile console, but that nightmare would extend cross-gen for the rest of the generation and they'd have to sell it largely at profit, so it wouldn't sell well.

Notice the only Japanese studios Sony invests in are ones that have international reach because the PS5 is almost certainly going to underperform the PS4 there.

 

[Klosshufvud]

Remember how Sony let Demon's Souls slip to Bandai Namco? And now Souls is on par with the greatest Sony IPs in terms of sales. And they can't even get a basic Bloodborne remaster out despite massive fan demand.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Remember how Sony let Demon's Souls slip to Bandai Namco? And now Souls is on par with the greatest Sony IPs in terms of sales. And they can't even get a basic Bloodborne remaster out despite massive fan demand.

Sony has worked with FromSoftware on Demon's Souls, Bloodborne, and Deracine.

None of these games sold especially well.

The reality is that Dark Souls was never going to sell as well as a PS exclusive and the same would have been true of Elden Ring. The reality is that Namco Bandai was able to put more into marketing these games because they were going to be sold on multiple platforms.

It remains to be seen what the future holds for Bloodborne. Sony owns 14 percent of FromSoftware and seems to be in a race against Tencent to secure them in the future, but I could easily see Bluepoint remastering Bloodborne if it comes down to it, but i think the demand isn't nearly as high as people think it is. Again the first game only sold a couple million units.

At 17.5 million copies worldwide across all platforms, let's assume 40% sold on PS4/5.

That's 7 million copies, which is really good, compared to 2 million of Bloodborne, but is it enough to really get hot and bothered over? Is there sustained sales here?

Elden Ring is significantly lower on user rating than critic rating on Metacritic, which suggests A LOT of people bought into the hype but didn't love the game, which doesn't suggest super high hopes for sustained success in future releases.

Let's go back to the 40% maybe the real number is higher or maybe the real number is lower, but this puts it around the level of sales of Infamous Second Sons and under Ghost of Tsushima on PlayStation consoles. Now maybe Elden Ring still will have some legs when it reduces price, but I think it's success is a little overstated when saying it slipped away from Sony.

Certainly not on par with Sony's greatest IP which sell 20 million units on PS platforms alone and will probably rise to 25-35 million depending on how quickly they release games on PC in the future.

 

[CamHostage]

And I've illustrated to you that the vast major of Japan Studio games weren't even developed by Japan Studio in the first place. 95 percent of their titles were developed externally.

The last game they developed internally was Knack 2 in 2017.

Not 95%. I did a count when this Japan Studio closer news broke, and I think it was 60-65%, something like that, depending on how you calculate them. And Japan Studio had a big hand in a lot of these games that external studios did the bulk of work for, so don't make the mistake of writing Japan Studio off as irrelevant because there were always ghostwriters in the staff credits... we lost something when Japan Studio closed, I hope most PlayStation gamers can recognize this, but the question becomes, was this actually lost long before it was officially called hopeless, and could it be that we might find something overall better (or at least with a more robust future than the little we were getting as of recently) once we've gone through these hard times and come out the other side?

Japan Studio never had a significant development team aside from the group that did Legend of Dragoon and that was shortlived after it did not perform well, particularly in Japan.

Eh, they've had significant development teams in the office many times over the years, though I guess it depends on what you mean by "significant development team". The Ico and SotC teams were significant, the Siren/Gravity Daze teams, Knack was a huge effort, they had a lot of key teams in the PSP support structure. If you mean just a AAA team making games aiming for global market dominance, then I guess I'd agree there's not been a lot of that in a long time, but Japan Studio had a place and a purpose arguably until the Vita ended, after which they tried to pivot but were not in that position.

I actually think closing Japan Studio makes internal Japanese development significantly more likely....

Separating XDEV and the internal studios makes a lot of sense. Though I think what you need is a Japanese support studio that can help internal and external developers.

It's certainly possible. Sometimes you go through these hard changes or divorces and realize in the end that the worst-case scenario really was the situation you were actually dealing with beforehand. And for sure the old Japan Studio approach of a giant office of floating creative types competitively pitching projects so that splinter groups can form and make things for a master publisher, that's becoming rarer in games; the publisher model has given way to the independent model (for indie to AAA production), even when eventually publishers come in to distribute the product. Sony only ever had one stand-alone Japanese development studio in Polyphony Digital (and then some Japan Studio "teams" like Team Ico and Team Silent,) whereas all of its other arms have adjusted to (or were formed in) the stand-alone studio approach. Maybe in time Sony's Japanese internal studio family will grow like it has elsewhere.

...I'm not quite as confident that this will be the future myself, looking at XDEV's "Japanese" outreach team. I also will always lament all the interesting producers or in-house directors who managed Japan Studio's external developer relationships and are now no longer employed in that building for that company (even if some of them may start the indie companies that Sony could bring back into PlayStation arms as you were saying above, sort of like Firesprite or other cases like that.) But I'm still in grief right now, and I'm hoping that news will come along (Ronin being one ray of sunlight so far) which will bring us into a new tomorrow...

 

[Hypereides]

Remember how Sony let Demon's Souls slip to Bandai Namco? And now Souls is on par with the greatest Sony IPs in terms of sales. And they can't even get a basic Bloodborne remaster out despite massive fan demand.

Mate, Studio Japan's endeavours haven't been decent in decades, remember?

Best get along with the program and take upon yourself the role of a spin doctor or junior armchair market analyst instead of caring about the essence and value that the core of games provide. The real ecstasy is found in making shallow market analyses on behalf of your favourite gaming platform and post metacritic aggregation scores all year round. That's what PS nation is all about these days. We salute you, Jimmy!

 

[Klosshufvud]

Sony has worked with FromSoftware on Demon's Souls, Bloodborne, and Deracine.

None of these games sold especially well.

The reality is that Dark Souls was never going to sell as well as a PS exclusive and the same would have been true of Elden Ring. The reality is that Namco Bandai was able to put more into marketing these games because they were going to be sold on multiple platforms.

It remains to be seen what the future holds for Bloodborne. Sony owns 14 percent of FromSoftware and seems to be in a race against Tencent to secure them in the future, but I could easily see Bluepoint remastering Bloodborne if it comes down to it, but i think the demand isn't nearly as high as people think it is. Again the first game only sold a couple million units.

At 17.5 million copies worldwide across all platforms, let's assume 40% sold on PS4/5.

That's 7 million copies, which is really good, compared to 2 million of Bloodborne, but is it enough to really get hot and bothered over? Is there sustained sales here?

Elden Ring is significantly lower on user rating than critic rating on Metacritic, which suggests A LOT of people bought into the hype but didn't love the game, which doesn't suggest super high hopes for sustained success in future releases.

Let's go back to the 40% maybe the real number is higher or maybe the real number is lower, but this puts it around the level of sales of Infamous Second Sons and under Ghost of Tsushima on PlayStation consoles. Now maybe Elden Ring still will have some legs when it reduces price, but I think it's success is a little overstated when saying it slipped away from Sony.

Certainly not on par with Sony's greatest IP which sell 20 million units on PS platforms alone and will probably rise to 25-35 million depending on how quickly they release games on PC in the future.

I love how you're spinning Elden Ring into a low key flop. Well done champ, keep at it! As if Sony themselves didn't admit they fucked up letting go of Demon's Souls. As if Sony themselves didn't spend like a billion buying into Kadokawa (the owners of From Software) You remind me of this guy

Your spinning directly contradicts statements by Sony themselves and now you trying to spin the GOTY of 2022 which has been a massive commercial and critical hit into the same tier as Infamous Second Son is disingenous at best, offensively stupid at worst.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I love how you're spinning Elden Ring into a low key flop. Well done champ, keep at it! As if Sony themselves didn't admit they fucked up letting go of Demon's Souls. As if Sony themselves didn't spend like a billion buying into Kadokawa (the owners of From Software) You remind me of this guy

Your spinning directly contradicts statements by Sony themselves and now you trying to spin the GOTY of 2022 which has been a massive commercial and critical hit into the same tier as Infamous Second Son is disingenous at best, offensively stupid at worst.

No one said it was a flop. This is a Straw Man.

I just said you're overstating how successful this game is if you think it is in line with Sony's PS exclusive biggest hits, because it simply isn't.

God of War and Spider-Man sold 20 million units on PS platforms alone and will go on to sell more than that on PC and would have sold more if they were multiplatform day 1.

The reality is Elden Ring if it was a PS exclusive wouldn't have sold what it sold. There is nothing controversial in saying that. It's a fact.

 

[Klosshufvud]

No one said it was a flop. This is a Straw Man.

I just said you're overstating how successful this game is if you think it is in line with Sony's PS exclusive biggest hits, because it simply isn't.

God of War and Spider-Man sold 20 million units on PS platforms alone and will go on to sell more than that on PC and would have sold more if they were multiplatform day 1.

The reality is Elden Ring if it was a PS exclusive wouldn't have sold what it sold. There is nothing controversial in saying that. It's a fact.

There really is no point in entertaining you anymore if you try to equate Elden Ring to shit like Infamous Second Son. Spider Man sold 20 million years after release and when it was being sold for like $20. Elden Ring is an absolutely massive hit no matter how you spin it. Even with your shit attempts at extrapolation by absurdly just cutting away all multiplat sales to make a stronger point. But don't let me tell you about it.

Sony and Tencent are buying 30% of Elden Ring studio FromSoftware | VGC

FromSoftware says the investment may help it publish games globally…

www.videogameschronicle.com

Here is your dear Sony admitting the exact same thing by buying 14% of FS parent company. Imagine if Sony had seized From Software in its infancy, back when Demon's Souls was already turning up a cult hit.

 

[CamHostage]

Remember how Sony let Demon's Souls slip to Bandai Namco? And now Souls is on par with the greatest Sony IPs in terms of sales. And they can't even get a basic Bloodborne remaster out despite massive fan demand.

Yeah, but Sony admitted that Demon's Souls was a surprise miss, that they just couldn't see a crazy-hard, Japanese'ey, weird sort-of-online-sort-of-not game working worldwide. Even Miyazaki wasn't sure he had what he had until it started to work the way he envisioned it. It was a niche concept that just happened to click. And Sony worked with Bandai Namco to bring it worldwide because Bandai Namco was good at these kinds of games in a way that Sony at the time wasn't. (It's not like Bandai Namco went around their back and took it when Sony wasn't looking. It was their game, even if FromSoft produced it.) Everything ended up working about as well as it could have for the Souls genre, for Bandai Namco, for FromSoft, and for Sony.

And as far as a Bloodborne remaster, that would have to be done by FromSoft if it were to be good (I assume most of us would prefer that over having Virtuous or Iron Galaxy handle the remaster? Bluepoint might be able to do it, having completed Dark Souls, but they also have other projects to consider too,) and FromSoft may be the busiest studio in the business. They've been heads-down making Elden Ring for some time now, and Miyazaki's team also has the Sekiro and Dark Souls product lines to fulfill.

Maybe it'll happen, maybe not, but unless Bloodborne can spin off into its own franchise (which is generally unlikely since, again, Miyazaki's teams have lots and lots of other things cooking,) or at least go under the knife for a PC port and then draft the PS5 remaster on top of that (which could get dicey since FromSoft has a bad reputation on the PC front...), remastering a one-and-done game that can be enjoyed just fine on the console it was made for probably isn't top priority despite massive fan demand (which, given that 2 million or so people who bought Bloodborne, may not be a "massive" amount of fan demand, though it's a good fanbase to satisfy if they can make a remaster happen.)

 

[Mibu no ookami]

There really is no point in entertaining you anymore if you try to equate Elden Ring to shit like Infamous Second Son. Spider Man sold 20 million years after release and when it was being sold for like $20. Elden Ring is an absolutely massive hit no matter how you spin it. Even with your shit attempts at extrapolation by absurdly just cutting away all multiplat sales to make a stronger point. But don't let me tell you about it.

Sony and Tencent are buying 30% of Elden Ring studio FromSoftware | VGC

FromSoftware says the investment may help it publish games globally…

www.videogameschronicle.com

Here is your dear Sony admitting the exact same thing by buying 14% of FS parent company. Imagine if Sony had seized From Software in its infancy, back when Demon's Souls was already turning up a cult hit.

I think you're lost in the sauce brother.

Infamous Second Son sold 6 million copies on PS4. How many copies did Elden Ring sell on PS4/PS5? Do you disagree with my math that it's probably around 7 million. Is Elden Ring going to sell another 2-3 million copies on PS4/5? I doubt it, even with discounting, but it's possible. That still doesn't put it anywhere near Spider-Man or God of War like you were claiming.

Comparing the success of a game that was released on X1, XSX, PC, PS4, and PS5 to games that just released on PS4 or PS4/PS5 is disingenuous because we know that the games would not have sold as well if they were released just on PS4/PS5.

Nowhere did I say sony isn't investing in FromSoftware/Kadokawa or that they shouldn't, but rather that it's a bit silly to say that they let Demon's Souls slip out from them when none of the games that Sony published from them sold anywhere close to what Dark Souls or Elden Ring did and Bloodborne came out AFTER the popularity of Dark Souls.

Again, part of what made Dark Souls and Elden Ring successful was the marketing budgets made possible by being multiplatform games.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Klosshufvud if Sony bought FromSoftware in their infancy as you put it, they probably never would have developed into what they are today.

They probably would have been relegated to what you see out of studios like Sony Bend and London Studio.

 

[Klosshufvud]

Again, part of what made Dark Souls and Elden Ring successful was the marketing budgets made possible by being multiplatform games.

As if Sony's own games aren't multiplat these days with PS4/PS5/PC releases. But yeah, really doubt Elden Ring selling any more than the first year of release at full price....

Klosshufvud if Sony bought FromSoftware in their infancy as you put it, they probably never would have developed into what they are today.

They probably would have been relegated to what you see out of studios like Sony Bend and London Studio.

Isn't this just admitting Sony is letting massive studio potential go to waste? But yeah, I'm actually happy Sony were dumb and let From Software go. Wouldn't want them choked under the now-westernized Playstation and Jimbo Ryan

 

[Panajev2001a]

As if Sony's own games aren't multiplat these days with PS4/PS5/PC releases.

Is this how you deal with the other points? Sure, let’s forget about Xbox or Switch, let’s forget their PC titles are a minority of their catalogue and come out generally a few years after the game premieres on console.

Wouldn't want them choked under the now-westernized Playstation and Jimbo Ryan

Ok, so you were not arguing in good faith but from a prejudicial warrior stance… ok fill your boots…

 

[Mibu no ookami]

As if Sony's own games aren't multiplat these days with PS4/PS5/PC releases. But yeah, really doubt Elden Ring selling any more than the first year of release at full price....

Isn't this just admitting Sony is letting massive studio potential go to waste? But yeah, I'm actually happy Sony were dumb and let From Software go. Wouldn't want them choked under the now-westernized Playstation and Jimbo Ryan

Most games sell the vast majority of their cumulative sales within the first 3 months on the market let alone the first year.

Sony games have JUST now started releasing on PC, but they release on PC as older games with limited marketing, which is not the same as releasing day 1 across PS, PC, and Xbox.

Again the point is that Sony was never going to replicate the success of Elden Ring on PS alone, and even if they owned Elden Ring and eventually published it on PC, the sales would have been diminished as well.

It's not to say that they're letting massive potential go to waste. Every company is different and have different priorities. Sony could put Spider-Man and Miles Morales on Xbox and probably sell 10-20 million copies across both skus, but is that worth the damage they'd do to the playstation brand and their console sales?

PlayStation has some of the best developers but anytime you produce games for just 1 platform you're going to have diminished exposure.

There is a reason why Activision's market cap is 60% of Sony's entire market cap, despite Sony being the leader in console video games and having major divisions in other industries.

Sony is now rectifying that to a degree by exposing their games to PC but that is besides the point. Unless they do day 1 drops their games are never going to have anywhere close to the same exposure as multiplatform companies and Sony is probably fine with that.

Circling back to my point again is that FromSoftware would never have reached these heights had Sony bought them instead of Kadokawa. Maybe Dark Souls or Demon's Souls 2 would have been a successful title for them, but it likely would have capped out at around 4-5 million copies, which probably would have precluded this arrangement with George RR martin and the massive publishing/marketing deal that helped make Elden Ring successful.

You can say the same thing for Microsoft and Nintendo as well.

How many copies of Halo, Smash Bros, Pokemon, or Mario Kart would sell if they were on PS4/PS5?

Microsoft could probably release the Master Chief Collection on PS4/5 right now and sell 10-15 million copies. Mario Kart would probably sell 40-60 million copies on PS4/5 not to mention PC....

 

[KWAB]

Really never understood this weird obsession with Japan Studio. Maybe it's racism because the only guy that was actually able to deliver something is French and people don't like to admit that Japanese can be retards too.

 

[Kerotan]

How long has Media Molecule been wasting Sony’s money on pointless vanity projects?

Dreams was a good idea but it needed a pc release.

 

[Klosshufvud]

Is this how you deal with the other points? Sure, let’s forget about Xbox or Switch, let’s forget their PC titles are a minority of their catalogue and come out generally a few years after the game premieres on console.


Ok, so you were not arguing in good faith but from a prejudicial warrior stance… ok fill your boots…

Elden Ring isn't on Switch and it's known that Japanese games sell drastically less on Xbox than PC/PS. His other points were full of baseless assumptions that you can't even argue. Like absurdly just removing all multiplat sales and then equating Elden Ring to fucking Infamous Second Son. As if people don't own multiple platforms. As if 100 million people don't already own a PS4... you can't win against baseless assumptions. Regardless, I'm happy FS went with Bamco in the end because now they basically get to do whatever they want and don't need to suffocate under Sony's deranged management.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Dreams was a good idea but it needed a pc release.

I assure you that Sony recognizes the qualitative presence of Bloodborne and Dreams and someone at Sony is looking at how they can make the most of these games going forward.

Bloodborne has a 92 on metacritic and is one of the highest rated Sony games of all time. That isn't something they're ignoring nor the success of Elden Ring, hence the investment in FromSoftware, which to date seems to be a way for Sony to ensure that no one else buys them out entirely and their games remain on PS platforms and that they can generate more revenue from their sales.

Dreams is also extremely highly rated but they need a better strategy to monetize it before just porting it to PC. It will get a new marketing campaign on PS5 and PC. It's too obvious not to. Sony is looking at Dreams and asking themselves how they can turn it into Roblox.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Elden Ring isn't on Switch and it's known that Japanese games sell drastically less on Xbox than PC/PS. His other points were full of baseless assumptions that you can't even argue. Like absurdly just removing all multiplat sales and then equating Elden Ring to fucking Infamous Second Son. As if people don't own multiple platforms. As if 100 million people don't already own a PS4... you can't win against baseless assumptions. Regardless, I'm happy FS went with Bamco in the end because now they basically get to do whatever they want and don't need to suffocate under Sony's deranged management.

When you realize you were trying to have a serious discussion with a crackpot...

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

And I've illustrated to you that the vast major of Japan Studio games weren't even developed by Japan Studio in the first place. 95 percent of their titles were developed externally.

The last game they developed internally was Knack 2 in 2017.

Japan Studio never had a significant development team aside from the group that did Legend of Dragoon and that was shortlived after it did not perform well, particularly in Japan.

I know. I’m not talking about the Japan Studio which were with Sony and didn’t do too well. I’m talking about brand new or even some small, fairly established Japanese studios or companies built from ground up or restructured that Sony acquires with a bigger development budget to work alongside the likes of Naughty Dog, Santa Monica or Guerrilla Games. For example, look how much Insomniac or Naughty Dog improved when procured by Sony.

 

[Klosshufvud]

When you realize you were trying to have a serious discussion with a crackpot...

As a final reply, I think it's completely fruitless to go into this speculative argument regarding business viability of whatever decision Sony makes. As Playstation fans, all we can do is argue for what's best for us. You seem to like that resources are diverted from east to west, some of us don't. That's basically the big dividing point here. In your original post you seemed to even imply that Bloodborne wasn't a hit which nobody at Sony seems to agree with considering how much they were touting its launch sales on media. I think you're trying to justify whatever point by inventing these out of nowhere assumptions that has no basis in reality. Bloodborne was a hit and it even got an excellent DLC and Bloodborne is part of Sony's PS+ starting line-up as a way to advertise the strength of their own library. So yeah, it's hard to take anyone seriously who makes claims that are in direct contradiction to what Sony is saying. And now when I showed you Sony buying massive shares of From Software after Elden Ring, you've done an excellent backpedal. My point being that you shouldn't play the corporate analyst card unless you're really educated and well-read. Because now you aren't. And we know since forever that big corporations aren't infallible in their business decisions either.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Really never understood this weird obsession with Japan Studio. Maybe it's racism because the only guy that was actually able to deliver something is French and people don't like to admit that Japanese can be retards too.

People put Japan on a pedestal, but most of the weebs have never actually been to Japan, let alone worked there.

Somehow in their mind, Sony should have propped up Japanese gaming through Japan Studio (largely a publishing house) despite the market trending more towards handheld and mobile games.

There is a reason why Japan Studio focused their attention on Vita rather than PS4, because that is what the local market dictated both consumers and developers.

It's the real reason why the Switch became a handheld console, which is a boon to Nintendo, but also comes at a cost. The Wii and the DS combined for 268 million units sold. The Switch continues to be a huge success, but it also ate into Nintendo's console business, which they've essentially given up on. Yes, the Switch can dock, but it's mostly a handheld, especially in the Japanese market and does not compete directly with the PS and XB even in the west. They've placed themselves in a hard position in terms of a successor to the Switch.

Nintendo has been able to market their games to a worldwide audience and its developers have been doing that for years.

Japan Studio again a publishing house with some internal teams, has never had that success or direction. They don't have any hit franchises across generations. That's why they were attempting to create in Knack, which kind of goes in the face of so many people asking for a return of Jak and Daxter. Mind you Knack sold 2 million copies, which was just as good as the Crash N Sane Trilogy remakes on PS4 and more than Jak 2. Not bad for a game with a 54 Metacritic rating.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

As a final reply, I think it's completely fruitless to go into this speculative argument regarding business viability of whatever decision Sony makes. As Playstation fans, all we can do is argue for what's best for us. You seem to like that resources are diverted from east to west, some of us don't. That's basically the big dividing point here. In your original post you seemed to even imply that Bloodborne wasn't a hit which nobody at Sony seems to agree with considering how much they were touting its launch sales on media. I think you're trying to justify whatever point by inventing these out of nowhere assumptions that has no basis in reality. Bloodborne was a hit and it even got an excellent DLC and Bloodborne is part of Sony's PS+ starting line-up as a way to advertise the strength of their own library. So yeah, it's hard to take anyone seriously who makes claims that are in direct contradiction to what Sony is saying. And now when I showed you Sony buying massive shares of From Software after Elden Ring, you've done an excellent backpedal. My point being that you shouldn't play the corporate analyst card unless you're really educated and well-read. Because now you aren't. And we know since forever that big corporations aren't infallible in their business decisions either.

If Bloodborne was a hit so was Knack. How are you defining a hit?

Bloodborne sold 2 million copies. Infamous Second Son sold 6 million copies. We'll probably never see another Infamous game. And no one considers Second Son a hit, you yourself suggested it was blasphemy to bring the game up. Infamous also got it's DLC and is part of the PS+ line up.

You showed me Sony buying stock in From? As if I didn't know that?

 

[Orbital2060]

If all you want to do in this thread is talk about sales numbers and metacritic scores then I'll leave you to it.

These were great games that literally shaped my entire perception of Sony as a brand. Whatever they were spending in salary for employees was peanuts compared to the goodwill and library diversity it fostered. For me, it was literally the dumbest decision they've ever made and they've made a few major ones.

Shutting down Liverpool/Psygnosis and WipeOut is a strong contender.

I havent bought a PlayStation since then.

 

[Kerotan]

I assure you that Sony recognizes the qualitative presence of Bloodborne and Dreams and someone at Sony is looking at how they can make the most of these games going forward.

Bloodborne has a 92 on metacritic and is one of the highest rated Sony games of all time. That isn't something they're ignoring nor the success of Elden Ring, hence the investment in FromSoftware, which to date seems to be a way for Sony to ensure that no one else buys them out entirely and their games remain on PS platforms and that they can generate more revenue from their sales.

Dreams is also extremely highly rated but they need a better strategy to monetize it before just porting it to PC. It will get a new marketing campaign on PS5 and PC. It's too obvious not to. Sony is looking at Dreams and asking themselves how they can turn it into Roblox.

Tbh I can't see them ever porting Bloodborne. They'll most likely do a remake in a couple of year's and launch it on pc/ps5 simultaneously.

As for dreams becoming the next Roblox, they'd need to port it to Nintendo and mobile also in that case too.

 

[Graciaus]

You can sell Japanese games outside of Japan. Sony just gave up and switched to western styles stuff. Probably was a good business move but they lost me as a customer.

 

[Trazyn the Infinite]

It's hilarious seeing all these Xbox fans coming into the thread and feigning faux outrage at Sony's dismantling of Japan Studio, despite a decade trying to fix them and a long string of poorly reviewed, poorly selling releases.

Like, how do meaningfully make a coherent argument against Sony's decision to shut the studio down and focus on 3rd party partnerships with Japanese devs (like Kojima Productions, FromSoftware etc that make 90+ MC games that sell internationally)?

Outside of Team ASOBI and Polyphony Digital, Japan Studio hasn't put out a decent game in decades.

Just because folks like to wax lyrical about the days of Ape Escape and their PS1-era JRPGs, doesn't somehow mean the Japan Studio of late was anything like the productive studio of those many decades ago.

I mean, I get it... a studio that made many of the most beloved games of your childhood was eventually shut down. It hurts. But it's far better than them being kept open, only to put out disaster after disaster, bastardizing both the name and acclaim that they once held....

Spoiler

*cough*.... Bioware... *cough*

They put out better shit than most of the companies western divisions. Last Guardian alone was better than the last 10 western first party games they released.

 

[RoadHazard]

Bloodborne is literally the best game of all time.

And wasn't developed by Japan Studio. They assisted in the development, mostly on the technical side of things I believe, but it's a FromSoft game.

 

[Tams]

I guess they didn’t have a knack for it.

/thread

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

And wasn't developed by Japan Studio. They assisted in the development, mostly on the technical side of things I believe, but it's a FromSoft game.

Of course, but op listed it as a Japan Studio failure for some reason

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Tbh I can't see them ever porting Bloodborne. They'll most likely do a remake in a couple of year's and launch it on pc/ps5 simultaneously.

As for dreams becoming the next Roblox, they'd need to port it to Nintendo and mobile also in that case too.

I mean all Bloodborne needs is a port running 4K60. Not sure if there is value is remaking the game.

As for Dreams being on nintendo and mobile, it should be on whatever can run it. I'm sure Sony is looking at everything for it.

 

[SmokedMeat]

What do you guys call Kena, Bugsnax, Sifu, Stray, Little Devil Inside

I call them timed exclusives that launched day and date on PC. I don’t regard a single one of these as a “PlayStation” game.

A handful of indies is not a substitute for the unique titles Sony developed internally with their own studios. It’s not the same and you know that.

 

[Aldric]

I always find it sad when fans try to rationalize the homogenization of gaming and the disappearance of certain types of games with references to sales and revenue like some sort of armchair internet financial analysts. I thought games were supposed to be art? At least that's something Sony used to believe in with the kind of exclusives they put out. I don't think Fumito Ueda games ever lit the sales charts on fire, neither did Journey but they're still important works in the history of the medium and the idea that Sony might never make anything like that ever again in favor of the kind of by the book Marvelesque consumer product they're known for today should be considered a net negative by anyone who gives a fuck about video games.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Last guardian is a nice game if you got a chance to play it do it.

 

[Keihart]

Last guardian is a nice game if you got a chance to play it do it.

One of my all time favorites, truly unique and forward thinking.