firehawk12
Subete no aware
Must complete shows... satisfy OCD...
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Spring Anime 2012 III | AITAKATTA YES!
- Thread starter hosannainexcelsis
- Start date
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9 hours left until Fate/Zero ends!
This is the last countdown post in this corny format, Berserker is pretty happy about that, are you?
I really hope this lives up to your expectations, ducky.
Jex
Member
All his frilly clothing is pretty complicated as well, but I suppose that's only a temporary issue when considering the nature of the work. That ridiculously hair is certainly the worst offender.
Wheeljack539
Member
lol duckroll meltdown would be fun.
Jex
Member
I guess DTL doesn't mind, because it's fucking insane to me that this is being treated as something serious. That characters in the show believe that the dead brother is playing through Kakeru at that point makes me rage so hard because no real, intelligent human being believes that angels, ghosts, dead bros, whatever, actually exist.
It's worse than the stupidly insane basketball in Kuroko.
Oh wait, is THIS how this whole conversation got started? lol
I'd rather not.
Jex
Member
It's less 'a waste of art direction' that's the problem and more a waste of Brain's Base in general. I would say that they're making bad shows to 'pay the bills' as it were but we all know that Sengoku Collection is a complete bomb so they'd have been better off making more Natsume.
That's got to be depressing for everyone involved.
It's painful to read analysis through the lens of unresolved bitterness no matter how insightful it might be.
Jex
Member
Sorry Eureka AO, but Smile Precure did this shot better than you!
Also, what a janky episode. So many ideas and characterizations presented... but none of them done particularly well. Least of which isAo's PTSD-like breakdown.
It seems a little late to complain AO's jank now, it's been janky for awhile!
Or has it suddenly switched from European levels of jank to Ukrainian levels of jank?
A Black Falcon
Member
(This is something which really interests me, so I hope some people read the whole thing...)
One of the most obvious places where I see this is in Japanese fantasy stories in anime and manga. While Western fantasy has its ridiculousnesses, like chainmail bikinis and such, anime fantasy is so so so much worse... they basically usually do zero historical research, and have no clue about what time period or kind of place the thing's actually set in, so instead you get a lot of random stuff. Many of these elements have become expected over time, so by now the generic anime fantasy world has elements from ancient Greece and Rome, the Middle Ages, the 16th-19th centuries, the modern Western world, traditional Japan, and modern Japan, all at the same time. It's so, so bizarre. I could go on for a long time about how many things Japanese fantasy gets ludicrously wrong from any standpoint, historical or consistency-based, but I'll try to avoid the temptation. There are too many things to list. Let's just say that anime fantasy has just about nothing at all to do with the actual Middle Ages, and anime fantasy worlds generally make absolutely no internal sense either.
So why is that? Part of the reason for the first of those issues is that Japan is of course not Western, so they don't have the same amount of historical context we would for our own history. This makes sense, and as supporting evidence anime/manga series set in ancient Japan or China have a much higher likelihood of being at least vaguely plausible than ones set in fantasy European settings are. Of course there are plenty that are ridiculous, but at least by looking at the other stuff, you can tell that they know that stuff's wrong, they just want to make this thing silly. I don't usually get that sense from fantasy stuff; there's no inkling that they have any idea how absurdly stupid their settings are. I mean, I'm sure they know that they're not historical, but do they really get the degree? I would imagine the answer in many cases is no. As for the other side, Western stuff set in ancient Asian settings isn't as far wrong as Japanese stuff set in Europe is, but it certainly is usually missing a lot of the details an Asian setting would have.
For the second issue, internal sense, this is really the main problem. I mean, if you're making up this world that's a mishmash of stuff from throughout history, okay, go ahead. We've done it too -- some of the games that helped inspire the JRPG genre, like Wizardry and Ultima, have sci-fi/fantasy mixtures for plots. That stuff can't have been a good influence. The problem is when it makes absolutely no sense when you think about it. And in fantasy anime/manga, that's usually exactly how it is. From small details to large, nothing is anything like a plausible world. This is a problem Western stuff definitely shares sometimes -- I absolutely agree, Firehawk, about Stargate SG-1's major flaws in its "conspiracy" plotline, it's really a big problem and absolutely hurt the show a lot for me as well -- but it's probably even worse in fantasy anime and manga.
Like, I was reading this one fantasy manga recently, and it actually pointed out that peasants in this world don't have meat very often, to the great frustration of the spoiled prince traveling the world. Good, accurate point there, and something almost never seen in fantasy series; usually they have modern-day-style restaurants, complete with menus (as if their clientele can read! :lol), with modern silverware and dishes (which didn't exist in the middle ages), etc, and then paste in a "medieval" setting that is clearly just paper-thin. And costumes... oh man, anime fantasy costumes. Where do they get that modern cloth, those plastic-based fabrics like modern bathing suits or elastics, zippers, etc, from? Certainly not from the placid, medieval towns you often see in those worlds! Need I even continue? :lol Even town designs and landscapes are absurd. Look at the cities in the Slayers anime for instance (overhead shots particularly which show the towns), all those houses spaced out nice and neatly... it's quite comical really. And for one you commonly see in fantasy from both regions, but maybe even more so from Japan, do I even need to comment on how stupid it is to see all these industrial, or early-industrial, worlds with their factories, and giant airships, and what have you, where everyone still fights with swords? I know the reason -- Japan likes swords -- but it's obviously silly. Some kinds of swords and pikes were common in European warfare until the early 1800s, but as the period from 1450 to 1850 progressed, guns became the dominant weapon in more and more fields. I mean, I've got nothing at all against medieval weapons, they just should go in medieval SETTINGS darnit, not these silly pseudo-Victorinan/21st century Japan hybrid settings that often pass for fantasy anime... (and yeah, I won't get into it, but both the West and Japan seem to have strong Victorian-period-love going on... but in Western stuff Victorian periods aren't fantasy ones, they're quite different (Steampunk, more likely), while Japan randomly mixes in plenty of stuff from that era into its fantasy. You can't mix that many elements without, at some point, completely breaking any possible hopes for a world that makes any kind of logical sense at all. And indeed, anime fantasy worlds usually aren't, with their modern stores and modern values co-existing with people fighting with swords and supposedly feudal politics (when they don't randomly have guns from that random lost civilization or techno-empire which has modern weapons while everyone else is fighting with sticks, as if technology can improve that fast... no, that's not how it works! And yes, I love Escaflowne. But that element of its plot is complete nonsense,
).
Now, sure, as I said, if you can come up with reasons for why your world isn't like the real one, I have no problem with differences. Like, magic's fine; there are ways to explain such things in a fantasy world, certainly. Similarly, I imagine excuses for at least some of the elements of fantasy costuming could maybe be explained away if one tried, though they'd probably be weak. The problem is, this stuff rarely even CONSIDERS such issues. Not a single thought to proving internal consistency. Look at Soul Calibur for like a million and ten examples of such things, and the ridiculous costumes are only the most obvious of the issues -- the deeper problems of things like why the Greek characters are apparently all pagans, when the ancient pagan Greek religion had ceased to exist by, oh, about 1000-1200 years before the series is set, for only one example; I won't continue, it's too easy.
What's the excuse for this stuff? "That's how anime fantasy works, and we're just going by the book" is the general excuse, and it's not the worst excuse -- indeed, that is what the market wants to see, so I can understand following the usual conventions because they're what people want to see. I like some of that stuff too... I mean, I do love fantasy settings. But for accuracy, the place to go is Western fantasy books. Not TV shows, those are often off... books are the best. And there are a LOT of very accurate Western fantasy books. Now I don't know if Japan has anything similar, in light novels or full novels or what have you, but if it does, it doesn't make very many showings in manga or anime, that's for sure (though more in manga than anime probably).
In conclusion, yes, I'm a history major, and fantasy is my favorite genre. And that's why I hate anime and manga fantasy settings almost as much as I love them.
On the note of Saki though, but what about Nodoka, who insists that such powers aren't possible?
(Manga spoilers)
But yes, in that world the powers are clearly real, whether or not Nodoka believes them. Even if you explain away Saki and Teru's stuff, Toki and Amae Koromo's leave no room for doubt. But yeah, I agree that it's reasonably internally consistent; the series doesn't present itself as existing in exactly this world.
Yeah, what I really want to see is internal consistency. That is, for the story to make sense within its own universe. And yes, anime and manga ignore this most of the time, to my frequent frustration. Of course as you said later (also quoted below) this is hardly only a Japanese issue, but it is very common in their stuff certainly.
One of the most obvious places where I see this is in Japanese fantasy stories in anime and manga. While Western fantasy has its ridiculousnesses, like chainmail bikinis and such, anime fantasy is so so so much worse... they basically usually do zero historical research, and have no clue about what time period or kind of place the thing's actually set in, so instead you get a lot of random stuff. Many of these elements have become expected over time, so by now the generic anime fantasy world has elements from ancient Greece and Rome, the Middle Ages, the 16th-19th centuries, the modern Western world, traditional Japan, and modern Japan, all at the same time. It's so, so bizarre. I could go on for a long time about how many things Japanese fantasy gets ludicrously wrong from any standpoint, historical or consistency-based, but I'll try to avoid the temptation. There are too many things to list. Let's just say that anime fantasy has just about nothing at all to do with the actual Middle Ages, and anime fantasy worlds generally make absolutely no internal sense either.
So why is that? Part of the reason for the first of those issues is that Japan is of course not Western, so they don't have the same amount of historical context we would for our own history. This makes sense, and as supporting evidence anime/manga series set in ancient Japan or China have a much higher likelihood of being at least vaguely plausible than ones set in fantasy European settings are. Of course there are plenty that are ridiculous, but at least by looking at the other stuff, you can tell that they know that stuff's wrong, they just want to make this thing silly. I don't usually get that sense from fantasy stuff; there's no inkling that they have any idea how absurdly stupid their settings are. I mean, I'm sure they know that they're not historical, but do they really get the degree? I would imagine the answer in many cases is no. As for the other side, Western stuff set in ancient Asian settings isn't as far wrong as Japanese stuff set in Europe is, but it certainly is usually missing a lot of the details an Asian setting would have.
For the second issue, internal sense, this is really the main problem. I mean, if you're making up this world that's a mishmash of stuff from throughout history, okay, go ahead. We've done it too -- some of the games that helped inspire the JRPG genre, like Wizardry and Ultima, have sci-fi/fantasy mixtures for plots. That stuff can't have been a good influence.
The problem is when it makes absolutely no sense when you think about it. And in fantasy anime/manga, that's usually exactly how it is. From small details to large, nothing is anything like a plausible world. This is a problem Western stuff definitely shares sometimes -- I absolutely agree, Firehawk, about Stargate SG-1's major flaws in its "conspiracy" plotline, it's really a big problem and absolutely hurt the show a lot for me as well -- but it's probably even worse in fantasy anime and manga.Like, I was reading this one fantasy manga recently, and it actually pointed out that peasants in this world don't have meat very often, to the great frustration of the spoiled prince traveling the world. Good, accurate point there, and something almost never seen in fantasy series; usually they have modern-day-style restaurants, complete with menus (as if their clientele can read! :lol), with modern silverware and dishes (which didn't exist in the middle ages), etc, and then paste in a "medieval" setting that is clearly just paper-thin. And costumes... oh man, anime fantasy costumes. Where do they get that modern cloth, those plastic-based fabrics like modern bathing suits or elastics, zippers, etc, from? Certainly not from the placid, medieval towns you often see in those worlds! Need I even continue? :lol Even town designs and landscapes are absurd. Look at the cities in the Slayers anime for instance (overhead shots particularly which show the towns), all those houses spaced out nice and neatly... it's quite comical really. And for one you commonly see in fantasy from both regions, but maybe even more so from Japan, do I even need to comment on how stupid it is to see all these industrial, or early-industrial, worlds with their factories, and giant airships, and what have you, where everyone still fights with swords? I know the reason -- Japan likes swords -- but it's obviously silly. Some kinds of swords and pikes were common in European warfare until the early 1800s, but as the period from 1450 to 1850 progressed, guns became the dominant weapon in more and more fields. I mean, I've got nothing at all against medieval weapons, they just should go in medieval SETTINGS darnit, not these silly pseudo-Victorinan/21st century Japan hybrid settings that often pass for fantasy anime... (and yeah, I won't get into it, but both the West and Japan seem to have strong Victorian-period-love going on... but in Western stuff Victorian periods aren't fantasy ones, they're quite different (Steampunk, more likely), while Japan randomly mixes in plenty of stuff from that era into its fantasy. You can't mix that many elements without, at some point, completely breaking any possible hopes for a world that makes any kind of logical sense at all. And indeed, anime fantasy worlds usually aren't, with their modern stores and modern values co-existing with people fighting with swords and supposedly feudal politics (when they don't randomly have guns from that random lost civilization or techno-empire which has modern weapons while everyone else is fighting with sticks, as if technology can improve that fast... no, that's not how it works! And yes, I love Escaflowne. But that element of its plot is complete nonsense,
Newton or no.
Now, sure, as I said, if you can come up with reasons for why your world isn't like the real one, I have no problem with differences. Like, magic's fine; there are ways to explain such things in a fantasy world, certainly. Similarly, I imagine excuses for at least some of the elements of fantasy costuming could maybe be explained away if one tried, though they'd probably be weak. The problem is, this stuff rarely even CONSIDERS such issues. Not a single thought to proving internal consistency. Look at Soul Calibur for like a million and ten examples of such things, and the ridiculous costumes are only the most obvious of the issues -- the deeper problems of things like why the Greek characters are apparently all pagans, when the ancient pagan Greek religion had ceased to exist by, oh, about 1000-1200 years before the series is set, for only one example; I won't continue, it's too easy.
What's the excuse for this stuff? "That's how anime fantasy works, and we're just going by the book" is the general excuse, and it's not the worst excuse -- indeed, that is what the market wants to see, so I can understand following the usual conventions because they're what people want to see. I like some of that stuff too... I mean, I do love fantasy settings. But for accuracy, the place to go is Western fantasy books. Not TV shows, those are often off... books are the best. And there are a LOT of very accurate Western fantasy books. Now I don't know if Japan has anything similar, in light novels or full novels or what have you, but if it does, it doesn't make very many showings in manga or anime, that's for sure (though more in manga than anime probably).
In conclusion, yes, I'm a history major, and fantasy is my favorite genre. And that's why I hate anime and manga fantasy settings almost as much as I love them.
I have no problem with such things, I just want them to present it in a way that's internally credible. That's certainly possible, and for stuff like ghosts does happen sometimes in manga, sure.
I agree with this, yes.That's a close one.
It's like with the basketball show. Don't try to get your audience to believe that your world is anything that resembles reality and then pull of wacky shit that makes people question the very rules of the universe that you are creating.
I have no problem accepting that characters in Saki have near magical powers (and in the case of one character, the actual ability to see into the future), because Saki doesn't want you to believe that any of that stuff can happen in reality. It's a cartoon world with cartoon rules.
On the note of Saki though, but what about Nodoka, who insists that such powers aren't possible?
(Manga spoilers)
Of course, given Nodoka's somewhat average performance in her last couple of matches, maybe she should consider revising that opinion...)
But yes, in that world the powers are clearly real, whether or not Nodoka believes them. Even if you explain away Saki and Teru's stuff, Toki and Amae Koromo's leave no room for doubt. But yeah, I agree that it's reasonably internally consistent; the series doesn't present itself as existing in exactly this world.
That kind of thing CAN be annoying sometimes, though, even if it's expected and obviously wasn't thought about... not in every case, but certainly sometimes. But yes, the below is much worse.
I know I responded to this earlier, pretty much, but I entirely agree about Stargate SG-1. I've never been a fan of conspiracy theory plots, so that was strike one against the series, but stuff like that really highlights how little thought really went into it. You're entirely right, ignoring all of those 9/11-related issues while they go on exploring the universe with alien technology is completely absurd. Stargate SG-1 really is a series that's only good when you pretend that the rest of the world doesn't exist, and it's just their team (not from Earth at all, or something) out there exploring the stars... but overall, I didn't love that series, and didn't usually watch it regularly, and the reasons why are more related to the conspiracy stuff as to anything else.
Ultimadrago
Member
There's truly no stopping the Narag curiosity factor!
Isn't that the same thing? Same continent...
Space Brothers?
That depends. My other problems with John K are some of his dogmatic assertions about the way cartoons need to be.
Jex
Member
So...we've all lost?
That was going to be my answer too. It didn't have particularly lofty expectations, but it's definitely managed to remain a solid show throughout its run so far.
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Another area in which the original show is superior to Brotherhood.
That's what they get for employing Keiji Gotoh.
Jex
Member
You try telling that to Russia, lol.
His stuff about color is pretty universal though.
I don't agree with him on animation, mostly. I don't even like the stuff he's made -- Ren and Stimpy is repulsive looking. But he does have things worth reading.
Jex
Member
Hey, now that was explained IN THE LORE.
Well, that just brings up the question... if he's right about color, why did he make a show that's "repulsive looking"?
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
He's right on color theory. And I like the stuff he's made, for that matter, so I can look past his bigotry and humanity for that stuff.
Jex
Member
Aren't the number of manga readers steadily decreasing though? Didn't they have to put out that document recently that explained to the younger generation how manga was supposed to read and understood visually?
hosannainexcelsis
Member
Speaking personally, Tsuritama and Mysterious Girlfriend X exceeded my expectations, while Fate/Zero, Space Brothers, Ginga e Kickoff, and Yurumates 3D matched them.
Because the expressions are gross looking. All his stuff has characters looking like they are shitting in their pants at some point, probably multiple times.
Definitely. I think he's even praised anime's use of color before too.
Jex
Member
Up to a point, yes.
Chet Rippo
Member
Genshiken 3
Nothing really happens in this episode. They go to some doujin festival of some sort and buy a bunch of stuff. Oh I guess one of the guys broke his hand. Well the next episode is gonna introduce the best character, so I look forward to that.
It's Time to D-D-D-D, D-D-D-D-Duel!
I wonder what those could be about.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
He's a gross guy, so I'm not surprised he tends to make gross content. Guy's usually taking action against the norms of the American cartoon industry these days, so all power to him if he feels like doing that stuff.
I like it.
Well that seems to be what he enjoys. I wonder what a John K version of K-on would be like.
Chet Rippo
Member
Upotte is my favorite from this season, but I don't think that's what is being asked here...
I'm pretty sure the only rule they consistently followed was the rule of cool. I mean did anything involving
the Lance of Longinus
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
He'd just go and get that female friend of his who he says draws amazing cartoon women (which she does). Would be rad.
Femmeworth
Banned
You think Angel Beats! looks fine, I don't think you have much ground to stand on in an argument about the technical side of things.
I'm hesitantly curious.
Jex
Member
Not all of them, just some of them. It's the same in any field, really, some people just don't "get it". I think tone or mood whiplash occurs primarily as a result of inexperience, I don't think it's a foreign concept to anime directors as a whole.
Oh yes certainly that show has been consistently excellent.
There's lots of ground to stand on down here in the south silly!
Jex
Member
Yes, unfortunately. Most of the world building in Evangelion was dispersed across the whole show, so piecing it all together takes a little bit of time. Like 15 years. Some aspects of the Lance can only be scene in single shots from an episode, or a single line of dialogue. Also, they use 'material outside the show' to work this stuff out so that's cheating!
Apparently they're called "Spears" officially. Hmm.
Not that it's really worth going into because I don't imagine that the Evangelion universe was ever imagined as a cohesive whole.
Crash Station
Member
Accel World 11
That was pretty friggin cool. THIS is the kind of stuff I wanted since the beginning; an all-out free for all skirmish, all culminating in a high scale one on one between 2 big players where the animation actually matched the scale.
Really one of the best episodes of anime this year so far.
That was pretty friggin cool. THIS is the kind of stuff I wanted since the beginning; an all-out free for all skirmish, all culminating in a high scale one on one between 2 big players where the animation actually matched the scale.
Really one of the best episodes of anime this year so far.
Right, that's what I'm talking about. You can figure out how things work if you read enough decent analysis and rewatch the show a few times, but it doesn't really matter in the end. Anno was far more concerned with the emotional and symbolic impact of scenes in Evangelion than if the expository crap spewing out of the character's mouths was reasonably comprehensible.
Jex
Member
Accel World 11
This was actually a well built up action sequence that really came though on delivering something entertaining, even if it somewhat falls prey to convoluted nonsense to get there. These bigger battles with fewer restrictions and raised stakes give more freedom to interesting things happening.
So you're saying that it was better or worse than Kids on the Slope episode 11?
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