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[ProudClod]

congrats fellow team annie member!

That scared me for just a moment (before I realized you were talking about Community). My girlfriend's name is Annie. Yeah, team Annie is the only team (unless you're gay. In which case it'd be a pretty damn hard split between Troy and Jeff).

Thanks! <3

 

[Aylinato]

Quick question on Protoss wall-offs against Zerg.

Do you guys wall off leaving the diagonal between buildings open? This lets you hold with one Zealot, but doesn't allow Stalkers (before Warp-Gate or Blink) OR Immortals through. OR, do you allow a full grid square open, which requires two Zealots or a Stalker to hold?

Also 2 sentries can forxefield most ramps for a long time

 

[ProudClod]

Also 2 sentries can forxefield most ramps for a long time

Sentries require incredibly good micro and reaction time. When I was bronze/silver, whenever I saw a sentry at the choke, I would just walk my early army back to the main, thinking "I'm never going to get past this." However, you guys have to realize that not everyone is HuK. My preferred build order against protoss is 15Gas, 14pool, 16Queen, 16Roach Warren. Push out with about 5-7 roaches (depending on what early scouting has shown me). If I see a sentry, I back off for a few seconds, then, when I think he's not paying attention to the choke, I walk my roaches up the ramp as fat as I can, and target fire the sentries. By that point in the game, I have 12 speedlings out behind the roaches. As soon as I make a small opening, walk my roaches in to make sure it can't be walled off, rush speedlings into the mineral line, and that's usually a GG. While all of this is happening, I'm building an Expo, a lair, and lots of drones. The only real way to deal with this sort of push without being HuK is to scout (if you see a roach warren, BUILD STALKERS/IMMORTALS. Do not think "Well... I can forcefield my ramp while I tech up," if your micro is not up to snuff. One tiny mistake in your micro and it's game over). Too many protoss rely strictly on micro. Micro can win games for you, but it should not factor into your strategy and tactics. You should never assume that you will win because of your micro if your opponent has flawless fundamentals. Unless you are a high diamond who can pull off a 2 sentry ramp defense flawlessly, and have a proven track record of always being quick enough with your forcefields, it's too much of a risk to rely on just that. However, if you want to tech up while being safe from attacks, throw down a forge. Two cannons plus two sentries, and you'll be secure for a while.

 

[mescalineeyes]

Our very own Devil is a Terran Macro Monster.
... or maybe I just suck at keeping him in check :lol

Yeah, team Annie is the only team

this :>

 

[Keikaku]

Sentries require incredibly good micro and reaction time. When I was bronze/silver, whenever I saw a sentry at the choke, I would just walk my early army back to the main, thinking "I'm never going to get past this." However, you guys have to realize that not everyone is HuK. My preferred build order against protoss is 15Gas, 14pool, 16Queen, 16Roach Warren. Push out with about 5-7 roaches (depending on what early scouting has shown me). If I see a sentry, I back off for a few seconds, then, when I think he's not paying attention to the choke, I walk my roaches up the ramp as fat as I can, and target fire the sentries. By that point in the game, I have 12 speedlings out behind the roaches. As soon as I make a small opening, walk my roaches in to make sure it can't be walled off, rush speedlings into the mineral line, and that's usually a GG. While all of this is happening, I'm building an Expo, a lair, and lots of drones. The only real way to deal with this sort of push without being HuK is to scout (if you see a roach warren, BUILD STALKERS/IMMORTALS. Do not think "Well... I can forcefield my ramp while I tech up," if your micro is not up to snuff. One tiny mistake in your micro and it's game over). Too many protoss rely strictly on micro. Micro can win games for you, but it should not factor into your strategy and tactics. You should never assume that you will win because of your micro if your opponent has flawless fundamentals. Unless you are a high diamond who can pull off a 2 sentry ramp defense flawlessly, and have a proven track record of always being quick enough with your forcefields, it's too much of a risk to rely on just that. However, if you want to tech up while being safe from attacks, throw down a forge. Two cannons plus two sentries, and you'll be secure for a while.

I don't assume that I'll win because of my micro, but FF'ing a ramp is not, in my view, a lot of micro. I don't always get it right on the money, but I at least cut the major part of the army off. It's rare that I lose due to improper FF timing/placement.

I also don't think you need to "be HuK" to do FF holds. Come on man, that's a wild exaggeration.

 

[ProudClod]

I don't assume that I'll win because of my micro, but FF'ing a ramp is not, in my view, a lot of micro. I don't always get it right on the money, but I at least cut the major part of the army off. It's rare that I lose due to improper FF timing/placement.

I also don't think you need to "be HuK" to do FF holds. Come on man, that's a wild exaggeration.

To do it well, you do have to be HuK. I may be exaggerating a /bit/, but too many people rely solely on the 2 sentry ramp hold for their base defense, and it costs them dearly.

Imagine this: You're paying attention to your main. Chrono-boosting away, building units, etc. Your opponent, rather than A+Left Clicking, walks all 7 of his roaches up your ramp without attacking any of your units. You aren't notified until, of course, he target fires your sentry. What you need to do to squash this push effectively is to notice this on your minimap quick enough, scroll (or click on the minimap) to the ramp, press whatever control group you have your sentries in, press forcefield, and click on the right location quickly enough. That is a lot of micro. Once the enemy appears on your minimap, you have less than a second to do all of that before your sentries are gone. Sure, if your opponent is stupid and just goes "LULZ, A+LEFT CLICK," You'll get an alert way before he's even up the ramp, so you have plenty of time to react. But to do all of that, to do it quickly enough, and to do it accurately enough, you need good fucking micro. The last few games I played against Plat toss, I've won with this exact same push. Because I didn't just box and attack, my opponents simply couldn't react quick enough. Yeah, if you're playing against a 200 AMP Micro machine, you will never in your life break through an FF hold -- but fortunately (for me), most people aren't like that.

 

[mescalineeyes]

I don't think disrespect for my opponents skill should be the motivator for my actions.

 

[ProudClod]

I don't think disrespect for my opponents skill should be the motivator for my actions.

Never did I say that should be the case. I was giving advice to the Protoss player -- simply saying that you should only rely on a micro based strategy if your micro is really good.

 

[AcridMeat]

I just tried playing zerg against very easy AI (first time ever, didn't know for sure the commands even). I think I could get into it, I'm a Terran player. I really like the idea of getting units quickly, but I'm still not great at the game in general and so I'm not sure if it's a good idea to try to pursue it.

 

[mescalineeyes]

I just tried playing zerg against very easy AI (first time ever, didn't know for sure the commands even). I think I could get into it, I'm a Terran player. I really like the idea of getting units quickly, but I'm still not great at the game in general and so I'm not sure if it's a good idea to try to pursue it.

Go Zerg. Never look back.

 

[AcridMeat]

Go Zerg. Never look back.

Like I said, I'm not good at the game still. I think I need to get at least an idea of using control groups first.

 

[mescalineeyes]

Like I said, I'm not good at the game still. I think I need to get at least an idea of using control groups first.

I SAID GO ZERG.

And watch day9.

 

[Deadman]

Dreamhack starts today I think. Dimaga couldn't get a visa in time so he can't play

Top has taken his place in the group.

 

[webrunner]

I super-duper suck at this game. It's not even funny.. I know the fundamentals, i know the theory, I just suck at enacting it and get distracted by attacking/etc/ easily. Plus with wall-offs I can never really tell wtf people are doing by the time it actually matters and I always seem to have exactly the wrong force even when they don't scout :/

I'm just not that competitive a gamer I guess.

 

[mescalineeyes]

I super-duper suck at this game. It's not even funny.. I know the fundamentals, i know the theory, I just suck at enacting it and get distracted by attacking/etc/ easily. Plus with wall-offs I can never really tell wtf people are doing by the time it actually matters and I always seem to have exactly the wrong force even when they don't scout :/

I'm just not that competitive a gamer I guess.

Don't give up!
Judging by what you said, you are already on the right path.

What race do you play?

 

[Q8D3vil]

i never watch day9 because its very long and half of it is lame stuff.
anyway, can anyone recommend me a good day9 for a terran player.

 

[Pandaman]

Like I said, I'm not good at the game still. I think I need to get at least an idea of using control groups first.

you dont need control groups, they're for suckers!
TLO zerg doesnt use em!

 

[mescalineeyes]

you dont need control groups, they're for suckers!
TLO zerg doesnt use em!

get OUT
are you serious?

i never watch day9 because its very long and half of it is lame stuff.
anyway, can anyone recommend me a good day9 for a terran player.

day9 is one of the most adroable people in the world, but not everyone digs his style. I love falling asleep to his netcast :x

 

[Pandaman]

get OUT
are you serious?

yep.
i dont use em either.
1 all hatch
2 hive
3 forward scout

all you need really.

 

[webrunner]

Don't give up!
Judging by what you said, you are already on the right path.

What race do you play?

I get tired playing one race, so I do what I did in Starcraft.. Random. But I usually end up Zerg anyway:/

I wish the game wasn't entirely about the speed, though. It feels like back when i played Starcraft 1 it wasn't always.. if you could fend off the initial rush then it was more about your decisions. But even now if you want to tech up that's still about how fast you can do it and get the units out :/

 

[mescalineeyes]

I get tired playing one race, so I do what I did in Starcraft.. Random. But I usually end up Zerg anyway:/

it's not about speed at all.
it's about building an economy that can sustain and then overpower whatever the opponent is throwing at you (or tricking the opponent into believing you are going to attack with something you are not.)

also, stick with one race in the beginning. learning 3 matchups is hard enough, 9 is overkill.

 

[Deadman]

Dreamhack stream seems to be starting now on day9s ustream channel. I believe matches start in 1 hour 10 minutes from this post.

 

[mescalineeyes]

so turns out if you copy slayers boxer's build orders you can actually win stuff.

 

[Pandaman]

apparently if you wall around a robotics touching a cliff edge, colossus can walk on air/space/water.

 

[droopy]

And attack while being untargetable!

 

[Pandaman]

And attack while being untargetable!

9 range is good for both scrap station ramps.

[suddenly everyone who spawns top right on metalopolis losses to protoss]

 

[(._.)]

What kind of rush? 6-pool zergling rush can be beaten by your workers. A full-on 2 hatchery speedling rush at like 7 minutes in or so can be pretty rough unless you've walled off properly.

6-pool Zergling rush. That is the only one that I haven't had happen to me in a ladder game.

basically, you have to do what you would do if you were to play a 2 rax all in, pull of all your workers and make sure your damage dealing units are behind them. most rushes are really gimmicky and once you figure out how to scout them won't work that well anymore.

Oh, ok thanks. Do I just micro the works in first then make sure the Zealots are behind them in melee range also?

My friend played Zerg the other day so he could 6-pool my base and I lost the first time but the second I was able to fight it off with my workers and some Zealots that were chrono boosted out. Had to drop an early forge and place a cannon at my choke since he kept sending them in and it was slowing down my macro.

 

[mescalineeyes]

apparently if you wall around a robotics touching a cliff edge, colossus can walk on air/space/water.

gtfo

ah well, I guess Zerg still have the extractor trick :/

 

[mescalineeyes]

6-pool Zergling rush. That is the only one that I haven't had happen to me in a ladder game.


Oh, ok thanks. Do I just micro the works in first then make sure the Zealots are behind them in melee range also?

My friend played Zerg the other day so he could 6-pool my base and I lost the first time but the second I was able to fight it off with my workers and some Zealots that were chrono boosted out. Had to drop an early forge and place a cannon at my choke since he kept sending them in and it was slowing down my macro.

ah, you're toss.

yeah pretty much just workers and probably your first chronoboosted zealot.

don't forget to scout on 9, eh.

in others news, I've been trying slayers boxer's early expand build and it works like a charm. (match vs. NEXON)

 

[Pandaman]

gtfo

ah well, I guess Zerg still have the extractor trick :/

i think this one will be patched out though.

 

[droopy]

9 range is good for both scrap station ramps.

[suddenly everyone who spawns top right on metalopolis losses to protoss]

And shut down natural mining on steppes (very easy didn't see that coming).

 

[Raelson]

http://www.ustream.tv/day9tv

Dreamhack going on!

 

[syllogism]

Bonus pool hurr

http://sc2ranks.com/eu/610238/Puckelrygg

3k diamond after 140 matches (109-29)

 

[Corran Horn]

I was bored...

 

[ProudClod]

Bonus pool hurr

http://sc2ranks.com/eu/610238/Puckelrygg

3k diamond after 140 matches (109-29)

You're a monster.

 

[Slavik81]

To do it well, you do have to be HuK. I may be exaggerating a /bit/, but too many people rely solely on the 2 sentry ramp hold for their base defense, and it costs them dearly.

....

He should keep a zealot on the edge of the ramp, if only for vision.

 

[ProudClod]

He should keep a zealot on the edge of the ramp, if only for vision.

And still, that buys him only a tiny bit of time. If only one zealot stands there, I could still walk all of my roaches past him, up the ramp. He still has to notice it and react in time -- something that requires micro. But having a zealot there is a good start.

 

[IceMarker]

I expect SCII to get LAN when WoW goes play for free :lol

Spoiler

Even then this is an old dead topic at this point. Starcraft II and LAN...

 

[Q8D3vil]

i noticed that most of the diamond players play custom most of the time and rarely play league.
just played with someone who played million custom game but only 100 league games.

damn these people tough to keep up with.

 

[ProudClod]

Just had the most intense 1v1 with a Diamond Terran named Napoleon. The entire time, I thought I was going to lose. We attacked at the same time (me with roaches, him with marauders and marines), and we sort of killed each other's forces off. He started building units a lot quicker though, since he was working off of one base and on an offensive. I was on two base, and my army was a little lacking. Set up some spine crawlers, and started pumping out queens and zerglings when I saw his army of marauders approaching. barely held off, had to send my main base drones to attack his guys to buy me a little time. Finally, zerglings hatched from the second base, and I took the marauders out in my base. He, being the smart player that he is, didn't let up. He kept sending enemies, and I was just BARELY fending them off. At one point, he destroyed my spawning pool and was destroying my hatch. I built the only offensive unit I could (roaches), even though he had marauders. I massed roaches from both bases while he kept sending marauders. I JUST barely held him off. At this point he's got medivacs, but I have about 5 queens. He tries to do a drop with 3 medivacs in my expo, and I take two of them down before any troops come out. A third one BARELY escapes. All the meanwhile, he's still pressuring me at the front. I guess he realizes that he can't overpower me on one base, so he gets a little greedy and double expands. This was his mistake, because there was just enough of a gap in his forces for me to capitalize and harrass his third. Eventually, the econ boost from his three kicked in, and he launched a huge marauder+medivac assault on my main. I however, noticed that in the past 10 minutes of the game, his main units consisted of marauders. I built a spire in my expo so he wouldn't scan it, and just his marauders and medivacs started wreaking havoc in my base, about 20 mutas hatched. Took out all of his forces, took out all of his SCVs/Mules, and started cleaning his forces up around the map when he left. The entire game, I was absolutely sure I would lose, but my stubborn self prevailed. So. Fucking. Intense. I've never had such a close game before.

All the other leagues are cake compared to this. Everyone in Diamond has already developed a well working build order that they've perfected over the course of their gaming. In the end, it really comes down to the /very/ small things. Every tiny decision counts, and a tiny oversight, like forgetting to scout my expo for a spire is the absolute /only/ thing that kept him from winning. He would've wiped the floor with me if marines were the bulk of his force. I hope I get promoted to Diamond soon

 

[Hazaro]

Well done! Replay?

20 mutas hatching worries me a bit since that means you had 2000/2000 sitting around.
Scouting his unit comp for being mainly marauders a good transition you can do is make a 3rd hatch in main and go mass speedlings (remember to keep lings on towers and overlords flying around). Sack a ling or 2 up ramp / into army to keep tabs on his unit composition.
Those mass speedlings free up a TON of gas for early ups / tech / mutas as well.

 

[syllogism]

You're a monster.

It's not me unfortunately

 

[Q8D3vil]

experimenting transitions in tvp since the MMM get raped easily in the mid-late game by coloss and HT.

thors, quite good since high templar, coloss ( after the upgrades ) can't seem to do anything against him.

tanks, chargelot owns them but still great to contain the toss early game specially if he want to go fast expansion early game.

i remember painuser transitioning into mech late game, need to check his replays.

 

[mescalineeyes]

experimenting transitions in tvp since the MMM get raped easily in the mid-late game by coloss and HT.

thors, quite good since high templar, coloss ( after the upgrades ) can't seem to do anything against him.

tanks, chargelot owns them but still great to contain the toss early game specially if he want to go fast expansion early game.

i remember painuser transitioning into mech late game, need to check his replays.

don't forget about ghosts with emp in tvp.
lol high templars wut?

 

[Stevie Gerrard]

I've played against devil a few times, and he knows about ghosts /:

Losing the ability to guardian shield and/or forcefield is the real killer

 

[twofold]

Mrbitter has been taking Gosucoaching lessons from Machine and he's been uploading them to his Livestream account.

Check the VoD archives here - http://www.livestream.com/mrbitter

He has a lesson focusing on ZvZ, ZvT and ZvP, discussing various builds, timings and unit compositions in each of the matchups. Really, really good stuff.

Every Zerg player should check them out.

 

[Pandaman]

i noticed that most of the diamond players play custom most of the time and rarely play league.
just played with someone who played million custom game but only 100 league games.

damn these people tough to keep up with.

alot of people just want to get diamond then go afk because they're worried they'll be demoted if they kept at it. cheesers and the like, you know.

dont really pay them any mind, most of them are gold leaguers at best >_>
like valenti! 600 points, lol what a scrub.
&#9829;

 

[Ikuu]

Are they any good sites for build orders? I had a check at Liquidpedia but not sure how up to date that is, basically looking for some BOs for all 3 Zerg match ups.

 

[V_Arnold]

Are they any good sites for build orders? I had a check at Liquidpedia but not sure how up to date that is, basically looking for some BOs for all 3 Zerg match ups.

You should not rely on BO's if you are Zerg in any way.
I know, that is not helpful the least, but it is the truth

There are certain timings however, which you might wanna learn to use. Like when to put down extractor and start gas for you to start speed upgrade as soon as pool finishes. Or how to do 5-6-7 roach fast pushes with an exp behind it if you smell something low-army, high-tech from your opponent in the brew. Or the timings of spine crawlers against a usual 4gate push against P. Etc, etc.

 

[ProudClod]

Well done! Replay?

20 mutas hatching worries me a bit since that means you had 2000/2000 sitting around.
Scouting his unit comp for being mainly marauders a good transition you can do is make a 3rd hatch in main and go mass speedlings (remember to keep lings on towers and overlords flying around). Sack a ling or 2 up ramp / into army to keep tabs on his unit composition.
Those mass speedlings free up a TON of gas for early ups / tech / mutas as well.

Thanks! Where can I upload the replay?

The reason I had so much money saved up is that, working off of two base, and pumping ONLY zerglings, I spent a ridiculously small amount of money and was dry on larvae the entire time. I eventually did build a second hatchery in my main to increase larvae output, but I should've built another one in my expo or something. I also should've kept pumping queens out, seeing as they're actually not bad meat shields -- but I was way too high strung in that match to think too clearly. I was thinking too much about the big picture (I NEED MUTAS I NEED MUTAS I NEED MUTAS) to remember the good stuff you mentioned above. Having so much money saved up, knowing i need a large muta force, knowing my spire is going to be done soon, and knowing that I had some time before his force barged into my front door, I waited until the spire was done to spend ALL of my larvae and money on a force that he would not be able to touch.