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The Legend of Zelda Community Thread: Timelines, Retreads and Colors Oh My
- Thread starter BY2K
- Start date
SecretMoblin
Member
It's pretty tough, yeah. I remember stealing graph paper from my father to draw maps for Metroid and Zelda. I had my own notation system and everything.G-Fex said:
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
G-Fex said:
You should play Kid Icarus. Despite what some may tell you, it's fairly easy.
Professor Beef
Banned
A friend of mine played Kid Icarus on Virtual Console, and was absolutely convinced that Nintendo had to make a new one. I'm biased because I didn't think KI was all that good, but I can't understand that logic.Andrex said:
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Jzero15 said:
Dying isn't a big deal in KI. You get unlimited continues and as far as I can remember, don't actually lose anything by dying.
Lord Ghirahim
Member
Just reached the first NES Zelda themed puzzle in Hiku Osu. It's
in block form.
Zelda 1 Link
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Really good!
His nose seems a *little* off to me, but I could just be crazy.
His nose seems a *little* off to me, but I could just be crazy.
TheCongressman1
Member
ExMachina said:
Giving me a run for my money, I see. Looks great!
Also, what brushes are you using?
_Alkaline_
Member
Jzero15 said:
Super Metroid is better than a lot of things. That doesn't mean the original isn't worth playing.
Thank you! Though why the frowny face?solblade00 said:
Andrex, Jzero15, and Hypatia - Thanks for the feedback, guys. I tried to fix the nose... but I dunno, it's getting to that stage where everything in the piece looks goofy to me, lol. This is supposed to just be a speedpaint/brush test, I'm not touching it any more!
Hypatia said:
Brushes are a set by Fox-Orian on dA. Ultimately I just ended up using a PS default (Watercolor Loaded Wet Flat Tip) that I already like for most of it, heh, but the hexagonal brush included in the pack is fun for texture.TheCongressman1 said:
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
This week, on 'EatChildren plays through Twilight Princess in Dolphin'...
Screenies and other such poop can be found here.
Wrapped up the Palace of Twilight tonight. I think it is an excellent dungeon. Its quite short, but having the dungeon separated into three main sections makes it flow really well. No tedious backtracking. I liked the Phantom Zant battles, and killing off the Zant head statues things to make key chests appear is cool. Most of all I really love the escape sequences with the Twilight energy ball thing, ominous floating hand following close behind. It's a pretty neat dungeon and quite a lot of fun.
The final Zant battle is excellent too. I love how it shifts through various boss battles from the adventure, while mixing them up with some Zant style twists. The fact it makes good use of multiple items and keeps you on your toes is good. But, like all bosses, its too easy.
The final Zant battle is excellent too. I love how it shifts through various boss battles from the adventure, while mixing them up with some Zant style twists. The fact it makes good use of multiple items and keeps you on your toes is good. But, like all bosses, its too easy.
Screenies and other such poop can be found here.
Random theory time:
Spirit Tracks people descended from Skyloft, but unlike Hyrule didn't adopt Triforce religion. Instead they focused on Force gems and the Spirits of Good which protected their way of life.
The five edges represents the five guardians hence the shortened version of the traditional symbol.
Spirit Tracks people descended from Skyloft, but unlike Hyrule didn't adopt Triforce religion. Instead they focused on Force gems and the Spirits of Good which protected their way of life.
The five edges represents the five guardians hence the shortened version of the traditional symbol.
Would this be the right (read: worst possible) place to mention that I've never finished a Zelda game before? I always seem to get distracted by something and then lose all interest.
...So, I'm playing LTTP right now and I just finished the water temple (I'm guessing? there was a lot of it) and I hope I can actually complete this game before SS drops.
...So, I'm playing LTTP right now and I just finished the water temple (I'm guessing? there was a lot of it) and I hope I can actually complete this game before SS drops.
SecretMoblin
Member
There's nothing to be ashamed about, really. I'm sure I'm not the only Zelda fan who's been bored by certain aspects of Zelda games.Wiseblade said:
You should definitely be able to get through LttP if you stick with it. It's one of those games that's worth a playthrough by fans of pretty much any genre; it's a great crash course in level design, controls, pacing, and story.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
I'm on media blackout for Skyward Sword, so I can't really comment, but I have to ask: five points?Big One said:Random theory time:
Spirit Tracks people descended from Skyloft, but unlike Hyrule didn't adopt Triforce religion. Instead they focused on Force gems and the Spirits of Good which protected their way of life.
The five edges represents the five guardians hence the shortened version of the traditional symbol.
HylianScribe
Member
So the Skyward Sword thread has devolved into yet another timeline discussion, so I'm just moving my comments over here.
In a nutshell, I got angry over the fact that the NOA localization of the Skyward Sword intro gave credence to the existence of a LOT of time before even Skyward Sword when they used the phrase "many untold legends" existed for generations prior to Skyward Sword. I then went into a rant about how the existence of Skyward Sword, for timeline purposes, is unnecessary as we've been told enough about the Master Sword's origin in other games and documents. The other ideas put forth in Skyward Sword could just have easily worked in a sequel. I argue that making prequels, especially more than one, more often than not ruins the "established continuity", and that prequels should only exist, in the context of story development, to explain something that has a lot of mystery surrounding it. A great example is The Magician's Nephew, which is a prequel to The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe, which explained what Narnia is, how it fits into the universe, who Aslan is, who the White Witch was and where she came from, etc.
Ocarina of Time made it seem like just prior to that game, Hyrule was in turmoil (maybe didn't exist properly), and not long before that, the Master Sword and Temple of Time were created to seal off the Sacred Realm. There has been absolutely no mention of many of these new story elements we've seen so far in Skyward Sword in any Zelda game. Not to mention, the strong connections to Twilight Princess that were still not mentioned in the Ocarina of Time 3D revamp - a perfect chance for Nintendo to retcon stuff to make more sense in preparation for Skyward Sword. As it stands, Ocarina of Time just simply neglects these elements, which is rather odd. Precedence for retconning a Zelda game to make more sense with newer games exists - ALttP GBA had tweaks so to better match up with terminology and events from Ocarina of Time.
This leads me to believe that, barring some miraculous explanation in Skyward Sword, this new game is going to probably complicate things more than help. And the fact there is even more backstory with the potential for future prequels annoys me even more because it just means more timeline madness. I'm also routinely infuriated by people who dismiss this stuff under the guise that Nintendo doesn't give a shit, when clearly they've said otherwise. You do not personally have to care about the timeline to enjoy Zelda, nor care about it at all. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor that there aren't people who care about it. So if you're just going to say it doesn't matter, please don't unless you have some new evidence to show the creators definitively do not care about the timeline.
In a nutshell, I got angry over the fact that the NOA localization of the Skyward Sword intro gave credence to the existence of a LOT of time before even Skyward Sword when they used the phrase "many untold legends" existed for generations prior to Skyward Sword. I then went into a rant about how the existence of Skyward Sword, for timeline purposes, is unnecessary as we've been told enough about the Master Sword's origin in other games and documents. The other ideas put forth in Skyward Sword could just have easily worked in a sequel. I argue that making prequels, especially more than one, more often than not ruins the "established continuity", and that prequels should only exist, in the context of story development, to explain something that has a lot of mystery surrounding it. A great example is The Magician's Nephew, which is a prequel to The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe, which explained what Narnia is, how it fits into the universe, who Aslan is, who the White Witch was and where she came from, etc.
Ocarina of Time made it seem like just prior to that game, Hyrule was in turmoil (maybe didn't exist properly), and not long before that, the Master Sword and Temple of Time were created to seal off the Sacred Realm. There has been absolutely no mention of many of these new story elements we've seen so far in Skyward Sword in any Zelda game. Not to mention, the strong connections to Twilight Princess that were still not mentioned in the Ocarina of Time 3D revamp - a perfect chance for Nintendo to retcon stuff to make more sense in preparation for Skyward Sword. As it stands, Ocarina of Time just simply neglects these elements, which is rather odd. Precedence for retconning a Zelda game to make more sense with newer games exists - ALttP GBA had tweaks so to better match up with terminology and events from Ocarina of Time.
This leads me to believe that, barring some miraculous explanation in Skyward Sword, this new game is going to probably complicate things more than help. And the fact there is even more backstory with the potential for future prequels annoys me even more because it just means more timeline madness. I'm also routinely infuriated by people who dismiss this stuff under the guise that Nintendo doesn't give a shit, when clearly they've said otherwise. You do not personally have to care about the timeline to enjoy Zelda, nor care about it at all. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor that there aren't people who care about it. So if you're just going to say it doesn't matter, please don't unless you have some new evidence to show the creators definitively do not care about the timeline.
As I already said it's asinine to even assume that there can't be a prequel before Ocarina of Time. I've already made a small post in response to this, but I can't find it in the mess of the thread at the moment.
The problem with your argument is that you assume too many things are linked. For example, where is there a need to retcon anything in Ocarina of Time to fit Twilight Princess? There is simply none cause there is nothing in Twilight Princess that contradicts what we have in Ocarina of Time. Anything that can be said to be contradictory can be easily explained and resolved quite simply.
With Skyward Sword you're assuming it won't cover anything from the past games, despite Aonuma making it very clear that the game will be about the founding of Hyrule and will make us understand a lot about Ocarina of Time (which was said in some of the Iwata's Ask I believe). There is absolutely no reason to believe Skyward Sword won't cover stuff like the Dark Intelopers (and maybe even the "Dark Tribe"), the creation of the Master Sword with the help of the sages, the founding of Hyrule, the Sheikah tribe, etc. by this point which is already a multitude of plot points that are completely necessary to be covered in some form or another. None of these would be extensively covered unless it's in a prequel.
Hyrule having a pre-history also makes sense due to the multitude of ruins throughout the series. Even Ocarina of Time had these. Where did all of these pyramids come from? Where did all of these temples come from? All of those things have meaning in some form or another and imply history before Hyrule Kingdom.
The problem with your argument is that you assume too many things are linked. For example, where is there a need to retcon anything in Ocarina of Time to fit Twilight Princess? There is simply none cause there is nothing in Twilight Princess that contradicts what we have in Ocarina of Time. Anything that can be said to be contradictory can be easily explained and resolved quite simply.
With Skyward Sword you're assuming it won't cover anything from the past games, despite Aonuma making it very clear that the game will be about the founding of Hyrule and will make us understand a lot about Ocarina of Time (which was said in some of the Iwata's Ask I believe). There is absolutely no reason to believe Skyward Sword won't cover stuff like the Dark Intelopers (and maybe even the "Dark Tribe"), the creation of the Master Sword with the help of the sages, the founding of Hyrule, the Sheikah tribe, etc. by this point which is already a multitude of plot points that are completely necessary to be covered in some form or another. None of these would be extensively covered unless it's in a prequel.
Hyrule having a pre-history also makes sense due to the multitude of ruins throughout the series. Even Ocarina of Time had these. Where did all of these pyramids come from? Where did all of these temples come from? All of those things have meaning in some form or another and imply history before Hyrule Kingdom.
Made a comment in the Skyward Sword thread that I want to move to here to keep things clean. This was in response to Big One:
Absolutely false.
You know that Ganondorf in WW is from a desert because he tells you. You don't need to know OoT to know that fact, nor do the events that transpire in OoT shed any extra light on his character than what we can learn in WW. In fact, in WW Ganondorf explains that the desert he was from was a horrible place that only knew death and despair, but in OoT we clearly see that matriarchal society thrived in that area (the Gerudo). If anything, that lends more credence to the idea that it is the myth that is important. Not the timeline.
And how can you assert that where Ganondorf is from has no bearing on his myth? It's a part of his "backstory" like everything else.
Absolutely false.
You know that Ganondorf in WW is from a desert because he tells you. You don't need to know OoT to know that fact, nor do the events that transpire in OoT shed any extra light on his character than what we can learn in WW. In fact, in WW Ganondorf explains that the desert he was from was a horrible place that only knew death and despair, but in OoT we clearly see that matriarchal society thrived in that area (the Gerudo). If anything, that lends more credence to the idea that it is the myth that is important. Not the timeline.
And how can you assert that where Ganondorf is from has no bearing on his myth? It's a part of his "backstory" like everything else.
First, TSA, Skyward Sword does not leave room open for infinite prequels as you fear and even if it did why on earth do you care? NoA's translation of the intro reads like it's talking to the gamer about the past and the countless generations includes generations beyond Skyward Sword. The intro sums up
the time between the beginning of the universe and the first appearance of evil. No other game has done that. OoT talked about the creation of the universe in passing and the master sword just always gets glossed over.
"It's the master sword! It was made to fight evil!"
"What evil? Who made it? Ganon didn't exist before OoT."
"Um... it's the master sword! It was made to fight evil!"
I'd say the intro feels poorly translated, but that's about it.
royalan: You're not making any sense. WW is SO specific on the matter there is no room for debate on this. That's why Zelda topics turn into timeline discussions. There is no debate on the 3D games. People argue from ignorance that there is no timeline and people produce the ton of evidence that they're wrong and then they just go "lol Zelda threads."
A typical timeline discussion:
"There is no timeline all of the games are just retelling the same legend!"
:
eople post abundant evidence that there is a timeline for SS, OoT, MM, WW, PH, ST, and TP::
"lol Zelda threads."
Gerudo Valley is crap compared to Hyrule. Ganon is also insane.
"It's the master sword! It was made to fight evil!"
"What evil? Who made it? Ganon didn't exist before OoT."
"Um... it's the master sword! It was made to fight evil!"
I'd say the intro feels poorly translated, but that's about it.
royalan: You're not making any sense. WW is SO specific on the matter there is no room for debate on this. That's why Zelda topics turn into timeline discussions. There is no debate on the 3D games. People argue from ignorance that there is no timeline and people produce the ton of evidence that they're wrong and then they just go "lol Zelda threads."
A typical timeline discussion:
"There is no timeline all of the games are just retelling the same legend!"
:
eople post abundant evidence that there is a timeline for SS, OoT, MM, WW, PH, ST, and TP::"lol Zelda threads."
Gerudo Valley is crap compared to Hyrule. Ganon is also insane.
OoT did share a lot of themes with LttP and split up the story between Old/Young similarly to Light/Dark worlds, but at the same time it introduced new races and lore, had very well fleshed out characters, and tons of sidequests.
In comparison TP just apes what it can directly from OoT in the story, the characters are largely flat and uninteresting (Midna being the only exception) and although Hyrule is massive, it's empty and there's little incentive to explore it.
In comparison TP just apes what it can directly from OoT in the story, the characters are largely flat and uninteresting (Midna being the only exception) and although Hyrule is massive, it's empty and there's little incentive to explore it.
This is all true but that doesn't stop the fact that it's still a direct reference to OoT. There is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. RagnorokX made a better response to your core argument, so I'm going to leave it like that.royalan said:
What? The games are not even close to being even remotely similar. Not even plotwise.Wiseblade said:
Side-topic: I've been playing Oracle of Seasons lately and goddamn the music is diarrhea-inducing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzva8_bnDuE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZLUIYxfY-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An1S9ZXuqI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIEYbQPeqzM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzva8_bnDuE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZLUIYxfY-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An1S9ZXuqI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIEYbQPeqzM
Ummm, I DID acknowledge WW. Not once in this entire discussion did I attempt to make the argument that Wind Waker is not a sequel to Ocarina of Time. In fact, the only reason I'm even talking about WW at length is because Big Guy tried to make the point that there are aspects of WW that would only make sense if you played Ocarina of Time (Ganondorf being from the desert, for example), and I disagreed with that. My opinion on WW is that, while it undoubtedly uses OoT to establish its history, it then largely goes on to tell its own story. You don't need to have played OoT to understand WW in the slightest. That is a completely different statement than trying to claim that WW doesn't proceed OoT and isn't a sequel, a point I never tried to make.
And all of that contributes to what is really my argument and where I stand on the whole timeline debate, and that is thus: There may have been a timeline at some point, but the series has long since outgrown it. You can't argue that there's a complete timeline while acknowledging that certain games don't fit in it or break it entirely. I place more value in the general mythos of the Zelda series - the idea that there's a standing legend that the games contribute to and pull from. It's the only theory that accounts for the inconsistencies in the narrative.
That's what I believe.
I've never played the Oracle games, but I can't hate a game that has Song of Storms.Big One said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBrxtmRJj38
Please SS, please have Song of Storms. There is a weather machine in the desert, you could play it there!
Aaaand that's the problem. The problem here is that you're putting belief before actual fact. No matter how you process it, there is a timeline and there is absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. The only reason someone would say that is if they're confused about Zelda continuity. To me the Zelda timeline is a no-brainer and I find it out people are puzzled by anything but plotholes, like how some of the games connect. But plotholes aren't a real reason to say something isn't connected in sequence. The games, the supplemental material that come with them, the developers, and official Nintendo content suggest that the games are connected in a straight up, traditional timeline.royalan said:
EmCeeGramr
Member
you can account for inconsistencies by the fact that they're different games with different writers over a period of a decade and they may feel like changing things
just like in every single media spread out over time
just like in every single media spread out over time
Big One said:
So you believe that every entry in the Zelda series -- from all the console games after OoT to all the classics that came before it. From the handheld entries to the games developed by 3rd parties -- all exist on a solid, deliberate timeline that makes complete sense of the narrative?
True, But TP's Dungeon design differs more from OoT than people give it credit for. I don't remember ever switching between Adult and Child Link mid-dungeon to progress the same way that you use Wolf Link in TP.Berordn said:
I just feel like OoT hits far too many of the same story beats to get away as easily as it does.