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The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM

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My point is that EU is being outperformed by basically every developed country. I mentioned a few countries, I can keep adding to the list. I think that is a sure signal that it's not the individual countries with somehow special circumstances for each, but rather the problem with the EU, it's not that others are getting lucky, it's that the EU is bad at it.

What the UK outside the EU would / could be like? Something like Switzerland - not in terms of mountains and chocolate and banks (although why not banks), but rather in terms of trading with the EU just fine, on the same basis as with any other country, but not being subject to the central policies, etc.
These negotiations resulted in a total of ten treaties, negotiated in two phases, the sum of which makes a large share of EU law applicable to Switzerland. The treaties are:

Bilateral I agreements (signed 1999, in force 1 June 2002)
Free movement of people
Air traffic
Road traffic
Agriculture
Technical trade barriers
Public procurement
Science
Bilateral II agreements
Security and asylum and Schengen membership
Cooperation in fraud pursuits
Final stipulations in open questions about agriculture, environment, media, education, care of the elderly, statistics and services.

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations

Thus not only does Switzerland have less immigration control than the UK, it took years and years of negotiation to get even this.

Is that a palatable model for you?
 

Faddy

Banned
Presumably there is some reason why London has become a financial centre in the first place and that reason would be a pressure to maintain it. I'm not saying that means it would happen but there will be some force in that direction. How that will fare against all the thousands of other forces pulling in different directions nobody can know.

The reason is the City of London corporation which is like operating offshore and in London at the same time. I don't fully understand it but basically over centuries of lending money to the monarchy and government on favourable terms they were able to carve out a portion of London where the law is different.
 
It's the most biased, hateful rag ever created in the history of printed word. It saddens me to no end that so many people read it, and worse, believe what they read.

Today I argued with a brick wall that told me he supports leaving the EU and was right to vote leave because now we'll maybe get Scottish independence, which he also supports.

He's behind Nicola Sturgeon every step of the way, apparently.

I have no argument left in me for these idiots.

Looks like a valid strategy to me?
 

Tommy DJ

Member
European negotiators must be scratching their heads at this point and wondering if this is not some next level psi-ops game.

Seriously, with this level of ineptitude its a wonder how the UK even lasts a single day. Zero plan whatsoever for a possible Leave victory, Labour openly starting a coup without actually having a candidate, and now a MP's wife accidentally sending a goddamn email regarding the Conservative leadership bid to a random member of public.

This event practically mirrors the episode where Hugh sends that "Christ Alive What a Cunt" email to some child only that it isn't satire but actually happening in real life.
 

Heigic

Member
I expect we will leave the EU, keep access to the single market and allow migration because it is exactly what nobody wanted.
 

chadskin

Member
Ben Bernanke, chairman of the US central bank from 2006 to 2014, on Brexit:
After several days of market upset, a few reflections on last week’s momentous vote in Great Britain.

Even more obvious now than before the vote is that the biggest losers, economically speaking, will be the British themselves. The vote ushers in what will be several years of tremendous uncertainty—about the rules that will govern the U.K.’s trade with its continental neighbors, about the fates of foreign workers in Britain and British workers abroad, and about the country’s political direction, including perhaps where its borders will ultimately lie. Such fundamental uncertainty will depress business formation, capital investment, and hiring; indeed, it had begun to do so even before the vote. The U.K. economic slowdown to come will be exacerbated by falling asset values (houses, commercial real estate, stocks) and damaged confidence on the part of households and businesses. Ironically, the sharp decline in the value of the pound may be a bit of a buffer here as, all else equal, it will make British exports more competitive.

In the longer run, the uncertainty will dissipate, but the economic costs to the U.K. still will exceed the benefits. Financial services and other globally oriented industries, which depend on unfettered access to European markets and exchanges, will come under pressure. At the same time, the purported gains from freeing the U.K. from the heavy regulatory hand of Brussels will be limited, because Britain will likely have to accept most of those rules (without ability to influence them) as part of restructured trade agreements. Immigration is unpopular in the U.K., and slowing it was a motivation for some “leave” voters, but a more slowly growing labor force likely would also reduce overall economic growth.
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/ben-.../28-brexit?cid=00900015020089101US0001-062901
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
And the EU told Switzerland that they would be expelled from the EEA if they went ahead with plans to stop free movement of people.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the articles, but Switzerland isn't in the EEA, is it? They were only applying to it, an application which they withdrew very recently. Instead, they actually do have a special relationship going (eerily similar to the EEA.)
 

BahamutPT

Member
Well, I mean it's obvious. If they give the UK an a la carte "Ok you can have access to the single market but no you don't need to allow free movement of people" then a lot of the EU nations would leave and demand the same deal....there wouldn't be a union anymore.

And the EU actually conceded on some Immigration issues (on top of the benefits the UK already had), predicated on the UK staying in the Union. There are zero incentives for the EU to make the exact same concessions (or even better) in that area with the UK out.
 

accel

Member
Well, I mean it's obvious. If they give the UK an a la carte "Ok you can have access to the single market but no you don't need to allow free movement of people" then a lot of the EU nations would leave and demand the same deal....there wouldn't be a union anymore.

But that would mean that nobody actually wants free movement, no? At least not as it is currently bundled. Why insist on it then?
 

Morat

Banned
So just to confirm, this is democracy from the mother of all parliaments. Literal and absolutely corruption, in return for power. Rupert Murdoch's opinion counts for more than the voting publics it seems.

Well duh. It's Murdoch

CcNS6uPW0AA7YFI.jpg
 

PJV3

Member
But that would mean that nobody actually wants free movement, no? At least not as it is currently bundled. Why insist on it then?

Just do this over every issus a state finds important, it's the same principle of not rewarding threats.


We should just piss off with dignity.
 

Tyaren

Member
Presumably there is some reason why London has become a financial centre in the first place and that reason would be a pressure to maintain it. I'm not saying that means it would happen but there will be some force in that direction. How that will fare against all the thousands of other forces pulling in different directions nobody can know.

The EU passport for it's financial market will be gone anyway. London will still remain a major financial centre, but it will very likely loose the title as the biggest one to New York when a good portion will move to other EU finacial centres like Dublin, Frankfurt and Paris.
 

Par Score

Member
This event practically mirrors the episode where Hugh sends that "Christ Alive What a Cunt" email to some child only that it isn't satire but actually happening in real life.

Armando Iannucci has said several times that writing The Thick of It became harder and harder over the years, until it eventually became impossible, simply because reality was becoming too ridiculous.
 

theaface

Member
how damaging is this leaked letter for Boris? embarrassing at best

Zero damage. He has the Jeremy Hunt knack of fucking things up and getting a promotion for it. This is the guy who was the face of a campaign which will very likely lead to a severe and self-imposed recession in his own country and he'll probably become prime minister of said country in return. Proof if proof were needed that the universe has no sense of justice but it has a damn good sense of humour.
 

Zaph

Member
"...The details can be worked out later on"

- the Leave campaign's strategy in a nutshell.

Well duh. It's Murdoch

CcNS6uPW0AA7YFI.jpg

He doesn't even try to hide the fact the media, and therefore so much of the government, is entirely under his control, and yet people still lap it up.

Forget the EU, can we please get rid of the Australian running the country please.
 

klonere

Banned
So just to confirm, this is democracy from the mother of all parliaments. Literal and absolutely corruption, in return for power. Rupert Murdoch's opinion counts for more than the voting publics it seems.

Indulge me in quoting myself from OT1

HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE RUPERT MURDOCH SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY COMPLEX. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR RUPERT MURDOCH AT THIS MICRO-INSTANT. HATE. HATE.
 
Armando Iannucci has said several times that writing The Thick of It became harder and harder over the years, until it eventually became impossible, simply because reality was becoming too ridiculous.

I can believe it. The most recent series was more depressing than funny (even excluding the hour-long inquiry episode).
 

Palculator

Unconfirmed Member
This event practically mirrors the episode where Hugh sends that "Christ Alive What a Cunt" email to some child only that it isn't satire but actually happening in real life.
That was an amazing episode!
Claire Ballantine: Are you lying to me now about not lying to me before?
Hugh Abbott: No, No... I am not a liar! I categorically did not knowingly not tell the truth, even though unknowingly i might not have done.
I can believe it. The most recent series was more depressing than funny (even excluding the hour-long inquiry episode).
It had this great bit, though:
You know Jackie fucking Chan about me. You know fuck all about me! I am totally beyond the realms of your fuckin' tousle-haired fuckin' dim-witted compre-fucking-hension. I don't just take this fucking job home, you know! I take this job home, it fucking ties me to the bed, and it fuckin' fucks me from arsehole to breakfast! Then it wakes me up in the morning with a cup full of piss slammed in my face, slaps me about the chops to make sure I'm awake enough so it can kick me in the fucking bollocks! This job has taken me in every hole in my fucking body. "Malcolm!", it's gone, you can't know Malcolm because Malcolm is not here! Malcolm fucking left the building fucking years ago! This is a fucking husk, I am a fucking host for this fucking job.
 
My point is that EU is being outperformed by basically every developed country. I mentioned a few countries, I can keep adding to the list. I think that is a sure signal that it's not the individual countries with somehow special circumstances for each, but rather the problem with the EU, it's not that others are getting lucky, it's that the EU is bad at it.
The EU comprises various countries some of which have been outperformed by some of those countries.

A cursory look finds Switzerland outside the EU has seen less % growth in nominal GDP than Sweden in the EU since 1992. The latter grew more than the US. Ireland outperforming all the countries you listed from within the EU in that time frame since Maastricht.

Specifying differences in economic structure is not attributing performance to "luck". A largely mining economy is not an oil economy is not a banking economy is not a dairy economy. And pirates don't cause global warming.

Attributing the UK's inability to grow at the rate of other countries whether inside or out of the EU, when it controls monetary policy unlike others, wage and labour market policy, tax rates and policy, to "bureacracy" is a cop-out.

Pillow regulations did not make the UK uncompetitive in manufacturing. And didn't drive its growth in financial services, which would not exist in its current state without the level of access gained from being in the EU.
 

SKINNER!

Banned
He doesn't even try to hide the fact the media, and therefore so much of the government, is entirely under his control, and yet people still lap it up.

Of course! Where would Great Britain be without The Sun, The Times and a Sky TV box in every household? Huh!? Murdoch is ingrained in the UK for a very long time and it's pathetic that a shitty tabloid newspaper like The Sun is all that it takes quite frankly >.>
 

Stuart444

Member
I'm watching some old episodes of 8 out of 10 cats just now (season 15) and it's really weird now seeing talks about the referendum when Cameron brought it up originally.

Really feels odd watching that stuff and thinking about how the referendum has come and gone now.
 
D

Deleted member 13876

Unconfirmed Member
Amazing. You've got 'Leave' voters in tin foil hats frothing at the mouth at EU Superstates, cover ups and conspiracy theories and this shit goes public. Got to love the juxtaposition.

Should have written this with a pen.
 

Nordicus

Member
Watching the House of Commons stream, according to Stewart Hosie there was a 650-page document prepared for the plans of Scottish independence during their first independence referendum in 2014
BBC PMQ Subtitling team just seem to suggest Cameron said "The 27 member states are meeting this morning to prepare bears"

We're in trouble
Australians dropbears have been thoroughly inspiring
 

accel

Member
The EU comprises various countries some of which have been outperformed by some of those countries.

A cursory look finds Switzerland outside the EU has seen less % growth in nominal GDP than Sweden in the EU since 1992. The latter grew more than the US. Ireland outperforming all the countries you listed from within the EU in that time frame since Maastricht.

Specifying differences in economic structure is not attributing performance to "luck". A largely mining economy is not an oil economy is not a banking economy is not a dairy economy. And pirates don't cause global warming.

Attributing the UK's inability to grow at the rate of other countries whether inside or out of the EU, when it controls monetary policy unlike others, wage and labour market policy, tax rates and policy, to "bureacracy" is a cop-out.

Pillow regulations did not make the UK uncompetitive in manufacturing. And didn't drive its growth in financial services, which would not exist in its current state without the level of access gained from being in the EU.

I don't know how you get that Sweden outperformed Switzerland (GDP per capita - Switzerland grew from 40k in 1992 to 85k now, Sweden grew from 32k in 1992 to 60k now) same for it outperforming US.

I am not attributing all of UK's relatively bad performance to being in EU either. I am merely saying that since everyone and their dog (of the developed countries) outperforms EU, perhaps the problem is with the EU rather than with everyone else.
 
Probably as much use as farting into your ethernet cable, but someone made a site for emailing your MP. There's a pre-written message, but you can edit it to something more personal (I did).

http://www.breentry.co.uk/

I actually emailed my MP recently on the state of Southern Rail, he did respond and is obviously quite upset himself (probably getting death threats about it knowing the UK!). Even more surprisingly he actually brought it up in PMQ today.
 
I don't mean to be as facetious as I may seem but don't worry guys! Apparently Vote Leave have a plan!

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

Someone sent it to me (On Twitter no less) after i moaned about neither side having a plan, painfully obvious post Vinegate
sorry
./...

Not that anyone has the time to read the whole thing but it's not exactly "By Farage, Johnson, Gove, Murdoch"...
 
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