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[elostyle]

As far as I understand the terms of separation are a negotiation in itself. It wouldn't make much sense to weaken their position in that process by making it less consequential for the UK.

Plus the UK has used the 'take our ball and go home' bargaining chip so many times, I am not surprised it's falling on deaf ears particularly this time.

 

[Micael]

UK might veto it tho

Unless I'm mistaken (which I could be), the UK veto power is not all encompassing, and I extremely doubt that it would apply to a situation which doesn't require any voting, since the EU doesn't need to accept if a country leaves or not, it just needs to acknowledge it.

 

[Joni]

The UK could only veto that which needs to pass the council. They are easily outvoted in the parliament, they have no power anymore in the commission and the courts do what they want. The EU could also hit back, with France in the Un security council or with any subsidies for the UK. They don't need to be approved as britain is leaving. So britain can't be an unfaithful partner too long.

I don't see any "have their cake and eat it too". The UK wants to be out and it wants to work out a mutually beneficial trade deal, because the EU and the UK are big trade partners. Both processes take time, so the UK want to do both in parallel. The EU are saying "no, no, no, no, you have to do it one by one, we won't do it in parallel". Now, yes, obviously this is merely a starting negotiation position, but it is showing all the staying EU members what they might expect should they decide to leave as well (an ordeal).

They want to negotiate trade before they leave, so they can see if they should. If you want to leave, then you should be treated like every other country. If you are still in, you should be treated like every country that is in. There is no British exceptionalism.

 

[oti]

The only way I can see UK could force EU to negotiating table is threaten to postpone A50 indefinitely and then veto the fuck out of everything EU is trying to do. In fact, typing that now, that's exactly what I think will happen.

...
You wanna make things even worse for the UK?
Because that's how you make things even worse for the UK.

 

[d9b]

Yes, the UK has a divine right to benefit from the single market without fully committing (euro) and asking for preferential status every few years (last time was just a few months before the referendum).

And when the UK decides to pull out, affecting 27 other countries, the interest of those countries should be completly ignored in order to give UK the time to sort a mess they have created themselves through a democratic decision with no external pressure.

This!

 

[Chittagong]

...
You wanna make things even worse for the UK?
Because that's how you make things even worse for the UK.

Don't get me wrong, I wanted none of this mess to begin with, but realistically the only ways I can see UK not implode is

1 - doing fuck all about the referendum and remaining in
2 - forcing EU to table to negotiate deals before full exit, so that they are in operation day one once UK is out

And still UK might implode, because option 1 ignores a very big part of the population, and option 2 likely requires veto threats.

 

[Croyles]

Afaik the problem is that. You trigger a50 then negotiate, but that means you can't go back even if the deal is bad. So technically you have left before knowing the deal.

Yeah tbf, I am all for remain, but the actual way article 50 works seems like bad policy, so I agree with you.

EDIT: Then again, I can't momentarily see another way it could work.

Really there should have been a plan before all of this anyway.

 

[Izuna]

I'm at the point that I welcome the upcoming challenges. I give up. I always thought the UK was the best country in the world, but the conservative future scares me.

 

[Ashes]

Both sides make very relevant points, however it pains me to see the young lady not acknowledging what her elders have said about how they had to work hard and these days you get everything handed to you for nothing when you move to this country, I mean when my grandfather moved here he fought in both world wars for this country and also didn't get a single handout, that being said she also makes some very good points, both sides do in all fairness.

This isn't a problem with immigration in particular, this stands also for British citizens, our benefit system in this country is far too generous, it's supposed to be a safety net not a handout state.

Thanks for sharing the link by the way, that was an interesting watch, what's your take on it Ashes?

I think people interpret the world differently. As in, we understand and process the world differently. Some people will use rational argument and logic to a certain extent, and others will value their own life experience and judgment.

What I never liked in this referendum and past elections is this idea of blame. Who is to blame? And by extension, we forgot to ask: what is the responsibility of National Government versus the European Union.

The data suggests that immigration is a net benefit in a lot of key areas. But what are numbers on a page, when you look out in your neighbourhood and can see with your own eyes?

I think what happened is that people blamed immigration, and by getting rid of immigration they thought they could solve a great many of their woes.

 

[PdotMichael]

Yeah tbf, I am all for remain, but the actual way article 50 works seems like bad policy, so I agree with you.

Because it doesn't automatically give the leaving nation what it wants?

 

[Violet_0]

the UK has collectively decided to leave the EU, yet still demands special treatment. So typical

 

[Monty Mole]

Afaik the problem is that. You trigger a50 then negotiate, but that means you can't go back even if the deal is bad. So technically you have left before knowing the deal.

That's why A50 hasn't been triggered. The UK needs to be confident it can win a good deal for the country before it risks the trigger. It's not just because of the 'egg timer'. It also needs to have contingency plans in the case that negotiations go bad. Basically the UK needs to be absolutely prepared for every eventuality before triggering, to ensure the country remains stable. That's going to be a tough task and is sadly the complete opposite of how the country went in to the referendum.

This is why I'm rooting for Theresa. She's made it clear that A50 won't be triggered before the end of the year, and the set up of a team to do a full analysis beforehand. And as a eurosceptic remainer, she is in the best place to do this in a pragmatic manner. Gove will be too trigger happy.

 

[Croyles]

Because it doesn't automatically give the leaving nation what it wants?

Not what I said or meant. They have made their bed and have to see that through, I am just saying some talks should maybe be open before article 50.

 

[Monty Mole]

the UK has collectively decided to leave the EU, yet still demands special treatment. So typical

48% - over 16 million - of us did not want to leave. Here in Manchester, we voted to remain. In London, they voted to remain. In Scotland and Northern Ireland, they voted to remain. The UK has 'collectively decided' to both remain and leave the EU.

There was no overwhelming majority. And democracy sucks when there are only two options on your ballot paper.

 

[oti]

That's why A50 hasn't been triggered. The UK needs to be confident it can win a good deal for the country before it risks the trigger. It's not just because of the 'egg timer'. It also needs to have contingency plans in the case that negotiations go bad. Basically the UK needs to be absolutely prepared for every eventuality before triggering, to ensure the country remains stable. That's going to be a tough task and is sadly the complete opposite of how the country went in to the referendum.

This is why I'm rooting for Theresa. She's made it clear that A50 won't be triggered before the end of the year, and the set up of a team to do a full analysis beforehand. And as a eurosceptic remainer, she is in the best place to do this in a pragmatic manner. Gove will be too trigger happy.

Gove said Art. 50 won't be triggered this calendar year I think.

In any case, I think May is the better one too. Apparently she's awful but a least she can give UK some dignity back. I can't imagine Gove negotiating with Putin for instance.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Entering the EU isn't supposed to be a light decision.

Leaving the EU isn't supposed to be a light decision.

All the UK has demonstrated is how dumb some politicians are using such a grave decision, with severe ramifications as part of a stupid intraparty leadership stoush, putting a complex decision to direct democracy and then whipping them into a xenophobic frenzy with a literal bus of lies.

Maybe, just maybe, someone should have actually thought about this before this stupidity to avoid it happening, or alternatively actually planned for the outcome.

 

[Micael]

One thing that we should realize is that article 50 is not there to help the countries leaving, nor should it be, it is there to benefit the members of the EU, and anyone that invokes it stops being a member, so there is no reason that they should get a treatment that benefits them more than it benefits the EU.
Does it make it harder for a country to leave? Definitely, but by doing so it also benefits it's members, which is why the EU exist in the first place.

 

[Croyles]

One thing that we should realize is that article 50 is not there to help the countries leaving, nor should it be, it is there to benefit the members of the EU, and anyone that invokes it stops being a member, so there is no reason that they should get a treatment that benefits them more than it benefits the EU.
Does it make it harder for a country to leave? Definitely, but by doing so it also benefits it's members, which is the reason the EU to exist in the first place.

Fair point. It's either benefit the EU or benefit the leaver, of course they would go with the former.

 

[Hasney]

Going to wonder if the York protest march is going to happen. Raining so hard it hits you like hail. Not sure what it's like in London.

 

[Ashes]

Going to wonder if the York protest march is going to happen. Raining so hard it hits you like hail. Not sure what it's like in London.

London's not so great right now.


Really do wonder if London turnout would have been better if it weren't for the rain. It was thundering down that day.

 

[oti]

I find it quite fitting how there was thunder over Germany when the Greeks decided OXI and thunder again when the Brits decided BREXIT.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

You know this whole 'democracy has to accepted thing'.
Why wasn't democracy accepted when the UK had a referendum on whether to stay in the EU in 1975?
So do these leave politicians get as many do-overs as they want until they get their way?

 

[oti]

You know this whole 'democracy has to accepted thing'.
Why wasn't democracy accepted when the UK had a referendum on whether to stay in the EU in 1975?
So do these leave politicians get as many do-overs as they want until they get their way?

Didn't Farage literally say that beforehand?

 

[Morat]

Didn't Farage literally say that beforehand?

He did, citing a possible leave loss of 48/52

 

[Violet_0]

48% - over 16 million - of us did not want to leave. Here in Manchester, we voted to remain. In London, they voted to remain. In Scotland and Northern Ireland, they voted to remain. The UK has 'collectively decided' to both remain and leave the EU.

There was no overwhelming majority. And democracy sucks when there are only two options on your ballot paper.

I know, but a simple majority was the only condition in the referendum. One could argue that decisions of this magnitude probably shouldn't be decided by one side gaining a small lead over the other, on the other hand however that's how true demcracy works. At the end of the day the result isn't even binding, but everyone treats it at such anyway

 

[Joni]

It is indeed clear that the UK fucked up with the referendum, from the day it was called.

Yeah tbf, I am all for remain, but the actual way article 50 works seems like bad policy, so I agree with you.

It isn't a bad policy, it works exactly like it should. It is there to use if you want to leave the european union so why should it include agreements to make sure you can stay with the union or join a trade agreement when the country is already leaving. It is there to negotiate a difficult process. Europe already has other articles on how to negotiate trade agreements.

 

[PdotMichael]

Part of all democracies is the opposition. Nothing forces people to accept any decisions made by a democratic system. The referendum was also just a glorified poll.

Not sure why Gleichschaltung is now a thing.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Part of all democracies is the opposition.

Not sure why Gleichschaltung is now a thing.

The massive problem are the elements that poison and control public perception. Namely the tabloid newspapers in particular. They have ulterior motives but yet they're still allowed to publish lies and misinformation.

True democracy only works if all citizens are well informed. Otherwise the whole thing turns into a puppet show.

 

[Izuna]

My Mom, who likes conspiracy theories, sent this to me about Brexit... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFwUMQA_iY

Oh my fucking god. I can't.

 

[Pyramid head]

Don't get me wrong, I wanted none of this mess to begin with, but realistically the only ways I can see UK not implode is

1 - doing fuck all about the referendum and remaining in
2 - forcing EU to table to negotiate deals before full exit, so that they are in operation day one once UK is out

And still UK might implode, because option 1 ignores a very big part of the population, and option 2 likely requires veto threats.

There's absolutely nothing to gain by pandering to that big part of the population, and everything to lose. It's utter madness to consider that this shitshow has gotten this far and incomprehensible to me that it may yet continue to plummet into the abyss. Leave voters are happy simply by the notion that they've won something. They don't actually want what's coming anymore than anyone else does. Tell them whatever lies they need to hear to placate them and do whatever needs to be done with Europe to climb down from the gallows we've made for ourselves.

 

[Croyles]

putting a complex decision to direct democracy

I am still surprised how little people are talking about this. Most of our democratic nations are representative democracies. We vote in a party who represents us, who in turn vote a leader who represents them, because most of these issues are way beyond us. Repercussions of major decisions only show themselves physically and obviously to the average person several years down the line. When you live in a country with 30, 40, 80 million people, you elect the people to make these decisions for you.

Who ever thought it was a good idea to then leave such a monumental decision to what can be considered 'mob rule'?

Not even Switzerland, with a population of just 8 million, is a true direct democracy. Most of their laws are voted on by representatives in parliament.

It is indeed clear that the UK fucked up with the referendum, from the day it was called.


It isn't a bad policy, it works exactly like it should. It is there to use if you want to leave the european union so why should it include agreements to make sure you can stay with the union or join a trade agreement when the country is already leaving. It is there to negotiate a difficult process. Europe already has other articles on how to negotiate trade agreements.

Fair point.

 

[*Splinter]

Whatever. I'm not one of those people who responds to every person who quotes out of principle. But here you are I guess. I don't really know what to say to this, I'm guessing you're slightly calling me a racist (referencing that one Simpsons thing in some way) but I really don't care.



This honestly merits a bit more thought. As a username I actually recognise from a lot of EU migrant topics I thought we saw eye-to-eye on quite a few topics. And I think we do (not trying to put a target on your back here!).

It's the strangest thing. When it comes to religion I'm probably agnostic, but...it's the Queen. That's a hard thing to shake for some people. I think if she came down on one side or the other I think it would make a huge difference.

Just to clarify, I was not implying you are racist, apologies if it looked that way.

I was, however, suggesting you were trolling, or at least coming intentionally close to doing so. It is frustrating to believe that no amount of facts or warnings of the consequences of voting Leave would be enough to sway you, and yet one word from a purely ceremonial figure would have changed your mind. I've seen your explanation now, so I'm not asking you to repeat it.

You aren't trolling, but you consider the word of the queen above the suffering of your fellow countrymen. I think you can predict how people will react to reading such a statement.

 

[Coen]

So it IS basically extortion then, pay us money, we make your rules, if you don't like it then leave but if you try to leave we will use our power to ruin you.

But why call that extortion? Those trade benefits are basically what the EU is set-up for, it's at its core why countries want to join. I personally feel if a country decides it wants to leave, that's totally fine but you can't expect the union you're are leaving behind to support you just reaping the benefits but do not want to carry the burden. If you leave, you ditched the hard parts but also the beneficial ones. You can't seriously expect some sort of special deal if all it does, is set a precedent for other countries to do the exact same thing?

 

[Xando]

UK might veto it tho

Ironically the deal the EU offered the UK had a veto in it but you guys declined it

UK ain't going to veto shit

Majority in the UK decided to leave that means they have to leave first before they can be treated as a third nation and negotiate a trade deal

If the UK does not want to be a part of the EU i don't see why the EU should treat the UK any different than canada or the US

 

[Ashes]

My Mom, who likes conspiracy theories, sent this to me about Brexit... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFwUMQA_iY

Oh my fucking god. I can't.

Throw mud on wall. See what sticks.

 

[Ardenyal]

For heaven's sake UK, go!

 

[Aureon]

Yes, the EU bureaucrats with their hard line are being penny-wise, pound-foolish.

It will all sort out in the end though, calm heads will prevail. We all need to work with each other. The UK has to sort out plenty of their mess for sure, but Brussels has to wake up as well.

Honestly?
As an Italian, who has actually suffered through EU-mandated austerity, who has an Euro for currency way too valuable for it's market, and who got his stock market dropped 11% because assholes in the nation that gets the best preferential treatment of the entire union thought they were getting the short end of the stick...

... You're not getting an inch. The UK, especially if it goes through with the exit, is getting as raked over the coals are reasonably possible.
Which is all too deserved, considering that seemingly neither the government nor the population of the UK spared a single thought of the wellbeing of everyone else in the union.
You don't get to inflict massive damage on everyone else and then turn around and say "Why are you saying you'll treat us harshly?"

Not a single thought is going to be spent on the UK's wellbeing on the EU side, unless it reflects positively on the EU's situation. And that's how it should be.

 

[gerg]

Which is all too deserved, considering that seemingly neither the government nor the population of the UK spared a single thought of the wellbeing of everyone else in the union.

48% of people voted to remain bro.

(Also, almost every major politician was for remain.)

 

[Mr. Sam]

52% of the population. Just saying.

 

[Izuna]

Throw mud on wall. See what sticks.

I'm just...

I wish it was possible for people to undo whatever causes them to believe in BS. =(

52% of the population. Just saying.

I doubt they'd all double down on their vote.

 

[El Topo]

48% of people voted to remain bro.

Maybe if more people had taken the referendum seriously it would actually have been the majority. But yeah, not all in UK have lost their mind, thankfully.

 

[oti]

Honestly?
As an Italian, who has actually suffered through EU-mandated austerity, who has an Euro for currency way too valuable for it's market, and who got his stock market dropped 11% because assholes in the nation that gets the best preferential treatment of the entire union thought they were getting the short end of the stick...

... You're not getting an inch. The UK, especially if it goes through with the exit, is getting as raked over the coals are reasonably possible.
Which is all too deserved, considering that seemingly neither the government nor the population of the UK spared a single thought of the wellbeing of everyone else in the union.
You don't get to inflict massive damage on everyone else and then turn around and say "Why are you saying you'll treat us harshly?"

Not a single thought is going to be spent on the UK's wellbeing on the EU side, unless it reflects positively on the EU's situation. And that's how it should be.

And this is why the Eastern Bloc won't play too nice with the UK either. Those people have worked their asses off to get into the EU. There will be next to no sympathy for the UK who decided to leave it.

 

[Ashes]

Honestly?
As an Italian, who has actually suffered through EU-mandated austerity, who has an Euro for currency way too valuable for it's market, and who got his stock market dropped 11% because assholes in the nation that gets the best preferential treatment of the entire union thought they were getting the short end of the stick...

... You're not getting an inch. The UK, especially if it goes through with the exit, is getting as raked over the coals are reasonably possible.
Which is all too deserved, considering that seemingly neither the government nor the population of the UK spared a single thought of the wellbeing of everyone else in the union.
You don't get to inflict massive damage on everyone else and then turn around and say "Why are you saying you'll treat us harshly?"

Not a single thought is going to be spent on the UK's wellbeing on the EU side, unless it reflects positively on the EU's situation. And that's how it should be.

You're just about the worst negotiator possible.

You're going to realise soon enough that we're still actually on the same team. A balance that teeters between supporting the EU, and stands firmly against it.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

You know this whole 'democracy has to accepted thing'.
Why wasn't democracy accepted when the UK had a referendum on whether to stay in the EU in 1975?
So do these leave politicians get as many do-overs as they want until they get their way?

Just have to look at the Scottish referendum in 1979. 51.6% voted for devolution, but it wasn't passed...even though it was higher than the percentage (with a much higher turn out too, just less than the Brexit) than the Welsh referendum from 1997 which was passed ...
They pick and choose to suit themselves.

 

[Xando]

You're going to realise soon enough that we're still actually on the same team. A balance that teeters between supporting the EU, and stands firmly against it.

Going by Merkels speech last week there is a difference between being in the EU family and being outside of it.

The US and Canada are on the same teams as the EU in most questions but they're still not parts of our EU team concerning trade questions.

EU will happily continue to trade and work on other things like foreign policy with the UK but you guys have to realize there is a difference between being in and being out.

If you're out you have to negotiate just like everyone else not being in.

 

[SporeCrawler]

You're just about the worst negotiator possible.

You're going to realise soon enough that we're still actually on the same team. A balance that teeters between supporting the EU, and stands firmly against it.

UK is leaving the team though

 

[Izuna]

What is the Brexit equivalent of Evalion? You know, someone who is wrong but at the very least articulates their points well.

 

[Silent Chief]

The only way I can see UK could force EU to negotiating table is threaten to postpone A50 indefinitely and then veto the fuck out of everything EU is trying to do. In fact, typing that now, that's exactly what I think will happen.

Indefinite uncertainty is bad for business. Multinationals can go around this by moving out of the UK as soon as they can. This would become just another self inflicted wound.

 

[gerg]

Maybe if more people had taken the referendum seriously it would actually have been the majority. But yeah, not all in UK have lost their mind, thankfully.

I'm glad you edited your post to make it slightly more measured.

By all means, be angry at the politicians who have acted terribly throughout the whole ordeal - the Prime Minister held the referendum for the wrong reasons (and seemingly no one sought to challenge him for this at the time), one of the figureheads of the Leave campaign took up that mantle for the wrong reasons, the Left did not voice itself sufficiently, and now that the entire thing is over both parties have descended into chaos.

By all means, be angry at those who voted Leave, too, although that will only get you so far.

But saying that "[no one in] the population of the UK spared a single thought of the wellbeing of everyone else in the union" is not only patently untrue (by a very wide margin!) but is no different than talking about whole immigrant or refugee populations in the same breath.

Actually, the irony just now hits me: That's basically complaining that a foreign population that blamed a foreign population for their woes is now causing you problems.

 

[shinra-bansho]

But there's no I

Spoiler

want everything I had before, and more, but without any of the requirements like your migrants, but I should still be able to go wherever I want

in team.