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The UK votes to leave the European Union

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I

ItIsOkBro

Member
sohois said:
I notice a lot of posts blasting those who assert that the future of the young has been decided by old voters, or looking for petitions or government intervention to prevent leaving. These tend to take the form of saying "you only like democracy when it delivers the result you like," or some such.

This is a fundamental mistake, using a category too broad to capture the needed meaning. Democracy, in this case, is a very poor choice of words. Whilst I don't doubt that most in here would support 'democracy' if asked, that does not mean that they agree with this referendum; the referendum is direct democracy, whilst when 'democracy' is brought up everyone will naturally be referring to representative democracy.

Pretty much no one would disagree with representative democracy, or at least they would accept it as the least best option. Direct democracy, however, is far more contentious and I think many would not want or like this form of democracy
Click to expand...

So what you're really saying is representative democracy is better because it's not actually representative

Because if it was it would align with direct democracy
 
E

Elandyll

Banned
England prevails?

tumblr_lu73raly2M1qdm6v6o1_500.jpg
 
M

mangochutney

Member
OCD Guy said:
Exactly. It just shows how ignorant people are.

But then again you have many Americans who want a "Pure America".

They don't realise that you don't have to be white to technically be American.

It's ok though because when the "foreigners" go there'll be lots of jobs for them to do. When the reality is many of these people they claim to hate, do jobs that they wouldn't be willing to do themselves anyway.

But for many people in todays society, it's always someone else's fault.

The cringiest thing I saw today was the celebrations on Sky News with those people cheering, they have no clue why they're so happy....
Click to expand...
The most cringiest was Kay Burley knocking the front door of Boris' house several times at 4:45AM, the point at which the media began saying yes, it's 100% leave, trying to get him to answer and say something.
 
nightmare-slain

nightmare-slain

Gold Member
gutted. i voted remain. in fact every area in scotland voted remain. it didn't make a difference because england voted leave and they outnumber us. the sooner we get another independence referendum the better. they said the only way to keep the £ and stay in EU was to vote No so we did (I voted Yes) and now look where we are. the £ is tanking and we're leaving the EU. now cameron has bolted and we're probably gonna end up with bawjaws the clown who makes cameron like quite the good guy. i hope we can get out of the UK quick before it gets any worse.
 
L

Lucumo

Member
geordiemp said:
The reality where CAC and Dax are down more than FTSE ?

Try looking at all the markets instead of being selective. Its just traders being nervous, more so for EU countries than UK it seems.

The reality where the pound is at its average for past 5 years and 1.4 was not sustainable

http://www.chartoasis.com/forex/1/gbp_eur/5_years.html

Actually Pound is still too high, needs to come down to about 1.2. Crash is better headlines than facts.
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By the way, you do know that the London Stock Exchange Group Plc agreed to merge/be acquired by the Deutsche Boerse AG? The deal still has to go through though and CME is considering bidding.
 
O

OCD Guy

Member
CyclopsRock said:
I think posters claiming "everyone that disagrees with me is an ignorant moron" are missing the point on why this happened, though.

If you look at where the votes went, it's clearly not along party lines. This isn't a right vs left thing, or a north vs south thing. It's almost entirely an inner-city vs everyone else thing. Almost all of the events in the political make up of the UK since the recession can be seen through a lens of people outside of cities feeling like they've been left behind, ignored, not been appreciated and aren't represented by their leaders. Unless someone genuinely feels like the people of Scotland have some magic fairy dust that they put in the water that makes everyone there lovely and liberal despite having basically the same financial situation as the rest of the country, it's clear to me that the SNP have managed to fill a gap left by Labour wherein the people of Scotland do feel like their have politicians who understand them and represent them and know what it's like to be them. The SNP were then rewarded for this at the ballot box and the people of Scotland don't wish to rock the boat by voting out of the EU.

Those people in the rural communities in England and Wales that feel like they've been ignored do want to rock the boat. For some it's seen as about immigration and for others jobs and for others waiting times at hospitals or wage suppression or sovereignty or whatever other reason, but it fundamentally comes down to people being fed up of their voice not being heard and wanted to do something to make it get heard and bring about change, because they're fed up with a distant elite that doesn't understand what is important to them. So to people surprised at why this results come in (and it's surprised me, but to read this thread you'd think there'd be scarcely more than a handful of people that'd vote to leave), I think that's why. Dismissing all these people as idiots or ignorant or stupid or lied to by the press despite every major party's machine working towards a remain vote and half the media (including some of Mordoch's papers, by the way, so don't give me that shit) is missing the point entirely. This is a representative democracy and these people feel like they aren't represented. Quelle surprise.
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Obviously no one out there will no the reasons behind each vote, and so generalisations tend to be made.

When I say ignorance, it's based on people I've encountered in real life who explained why they voted the way they did.

I live in an area where white people are a minority, so many white people who I know voted leave because they're fed up of the amount of ethnic minorities, although they're not a minority ironically lol

The other issue is that colour is not a way to guage whether someone is British or not. But again it's easy to just label everyone that isn't white as an illegal immigrant in ignorance. The reality is illegal immigrants are a minority. Many people of "colour" come from generations that have been in the country. Their great grand parents were here many years ago, so each generation has been born in this country and has as much right as the white people who have voted to leave.

Once the reality sinks in that this country won't be any more "white" and we're then dealing with a worse economy maybe they'll start regretting their decision.

I also want to make clear that I don't necessarily think every leave vote was due to racism, no one can say for sure the reasons behind each vote. I'm sure there were people that voted to stay that aren't necessarily keen on those of colour, but they are aware of the bigger effect that either vote would have on the economy.
 
P

platocplx

Member
TatteredHat said:
The simpler people are too easily swayed by clever catch-phrases and shouting matches, as evidenced by these regretful leave voters.

It's the biggest flaw in Democracy and it's why you don't really want to have these referendums. A large, equally counted part of the populace will just end up being exploited because they are either intentionally or unintentionally ignorant on what they're voting for.
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Yep, I mean you had people on the leave side discrediting people who were experts in this stuff just saying trust them(the leave) people

I honestly feel like the general public is absolutely stupid as a collective and really have extremely extremely bad foresight and understanding of what one decision could do for their future just to satisfy a current absurd need(immigration, and closed borders)

The UK now has to negotiate deals with 27 countries individually and now has made shit so much worse for their people. lol

Man fear mongering is an extremely powerful drug.
 
A

Assault

Member
OCD Guy said:
Exactly. It just shows how ignorant people are.

But then again you have many Americans who want a "Pure America".

They don't realise that you don't have to be white to technically be American.

It's ok though because when the "foreigners" go there'll be lots of jobs for them to do. When the reality is many of these people they claim to hate, do jobs that they wouldn't be willing to do themselves anyway.

But for many people in todays society, it's always someone else's fault.

The cringiest thing I saw today was the celebrations on Sky News with those people cheering, they have no clue why they're so happy....
Click to expand...

True. I'm 23, and grew up in a working class town in the Midlands. Based on my own experience, Eastern European migrants are far more willing to work in physically demanding environments such as factory jobs than their White English counterparts.
 
J

jelly

Member
Lime said:
You no longer have the collective force of EU to provide bargaining power with the US.
Click to expand...

Yeah, bend over and take it. Even more so, people will be bought and the rich gap will be even wider.

God knows what our rights will be under this government. We are going to be screwed.
 
M

Maledict

Member
Blueliner said:
The will of the majority people should always hold the ultimate control in a country, like it or not, it's how it needs to be.
Click to expand...

Absolutely not - that is not democracy. Democracy also has, at its core, the idea that the rights of the minority must be preserved - otherwise it's mob rule. If the UK voted to legalize slavery I would expect the courts and parliament to ignore it.
 
S

Skele7on

Banned
I don't know whats making me feel sick more today.
Idiots LESS THAN A DAY after the vote going I MADE A MISTAKE.
Or the fact that they have been fully taken advantage of by the rich again.
The truth is the ones that voted leave have once again helped the rich in them in the not so near future grab up a lot of property and benefit from their offshore accounts having euros or other now stronger currency in to make such purchases.

I am just angry as hell today.

Also LOL a petition for a revote, that's not how it works, it's done now and also the EU Chiefs have stated they want us to start proceedings ASAP.

We fucked up.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
CyclopsRock said:
Gotten their way, how? I'm not talking about Surrey and Hampshire, I'm talking about Merseyside (outside of Liverpool center), the Industrial North East outside of the very centers, greater Manchester. I reiterated in that post that "rural" isn't the right word because it's basically everyone except city centers, I just don't know of a better word.
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That's fair, but it's also not the whole issue because I feel incredibly disaffected by recent politics as a young(ish) student and I still voted to remain.

I agree that calling people stupid is not a fruitful way of analysing the situation.

I do think that the media goes some of the way to explaining the situation and think it's bizarre to dismiss it out of hand. The media creates and shapes the entire climate of the debate. The only reason we're even having a referendum is because of a highly successful media campaign waged over the past 30 years by the tabloid media to convince the populace that the EU is a source of great woe and suffering for the British people.
 
D

DiGiKerot

Member
Madchad said:
Sad but true, if you did not turn out to take part and VOTE you have absolutely no grounds on which to complain about the end result.
Click to expand...

Have you got a breakdown of eligible voters by age?

Genuinely curious - my understanding is that the average age in the UK is around 40 at the moment, and that's factoring in younger, working-age immegrants (who are ineligible to vote) bringing the age down. That'd kinda suggest that it'd be mathematically difficult for younger voters to get their way with turnout increases alone.

Not to mention that voting on a Thursday does create a bias against people who have to, you know, work through the week.
 
M

MrGlass

Member
Do we have sources for the turnout figures by age group?

If they're true then the older generation shouldn't be the only ones to blame.
 
S

SomTervo

Member
Protome said:
At least we've temporarily escaped TTIP?

I'm trying to stay positive and this is kinda it...
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TTIP seemed like a long-form step towards an Americanised set of standards and legislation

Without the EU there as a time-buffer we will be Americanised so very much more quickly

Maledict said:
His polls tend to be very good to be fair - obviously he has a huge political bent, but the polls don't tend to reflect that.
Click to expand...

That's cool. I suppose it's similar to how YouGov was set up and is run by the Conservatives but is still a totally solid market research base. The odd leading question notwithstanding.

I worked for Ipsos MORI for six years and by god if some of those questions weren't leading. Like the big monthly political monitor ones. And they're independent.
 
B

Blueliner

Banned
Maledict said:
Absolutely not - that is not democracy. Democracy also has, at its core, the idea that the rights of the minority must be preserved - otherwise it's mob rule. If the UK voted to legalize slavery I would expect the courts and parliament to ignore it.
Click to expand...

Well having a vote to leave the EU, or having a vote to restart slavery are completely different things, I'm talking about -in reason-
 
L

Led_Zeppelin

Member
Starwolf_UK said:
For people saying we've turned our back we won't be on good terms. Well, I don't know take the Tunisian independence as an example. They and the French are still on good terms. Maybe we mean a lot more to the EU than Tunisia did to France (though France cared enough to ban the party seeking independence and imprison its leader...).


A week ago it was at that point because the markets were scared of a Brexit (remember it was said to be close but Brexit). A close but Brexit has happened and you're saying nothing to fear it is in a similar place while telling people not to talk about things they don't understand? It is perfectly expected for it to be a similar place as last week in these circumstances don't you think?
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Again not understanding the market at all. The pound has been dropping ever since the referendum was confirmed with rallies every time a brexit or remain were "certain" (as certain as it can be on the markets anyway). Last week the buying rallies in both the stock market and the exchange market were made under the assumption that remain would have won. So that is why the pound took a hit from 1.49 to almost 1.30 in a single day, but that was mostly fear of a market that bet on remain and got leave.

The bounce back to 1.38 got it closer to what the price was before the rally began last week, so what is the narrative going to be? The person that was complaining of her money not being "worth enough" anymore should have complained a week ago instead of today, because unless she sold all her pounds when the exchange hit the lowest point this fluctuation didn't affect her at all.

That is the type of ignorance I am talking about. Like some other liberal on twitter was saying how "350B when puff from the downfall of the stock market and the devaluation of the pound" when those same 350B were basically pumped by people betting on a Remain victory, since when you see the trends of the markets the FTE is on a higher levels than last Monday!

I mean talking about fear mongering, that kind of attitude only helps to make ill informed people to sell their stock or assets only to ended up being the sucker of the situation while others are the ones making the profit.
 
Freeman

Freeman

Banned
I'm all for independence anywhere. UK will be just fine over time. They can take care of themselves, if the EU wants to retaliate the rests of the world is still out there.
 
D

daniels

Member
Monocle said:
If you can accept the premise that stupid and uneducated people are capable of making stupid and uneducated choices, then you're one step closer to understanding some people's outrage when democracy creates an adverse outcome.
Click to expand...

Yes and you all have convinced yourself that you are the smart ones and everyone else is stupid and a "bad" vote.. everyone thinks like that after they lost, sorry you are not different or smarter or a "better" voter.
 
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