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[mcz117chief]

As a Swiss citizen and, thus, a strong believer in the merits of direct democracy, I have to respectfully disagree Elements of direct democracy can work very well, *if* (and that's a pretty significant if) there are appropriate institutional safeguards in place and there is an actual lived culture of regular direct democratic political participation (as in Switzerland where we vote four times a year on numerous important and less important issues both on the communal, the state and the federal level).

However, calling one-off referendums on momentous issues that severely affect the course of an entire nation in a representative democracy is, indeed, bullshit if you ask me. I mean, we're seeing the results right now.

Thank you, I appreciate your reply. I wonder however, how is the system regulated? What are these "institutional safeguards" you mentioned.

 

[AmyS]

DOW Jones opens:

 

[SomTervo]

Top post. Well said.

Not a top post at all, because again, areas with the most immigration = the areas that were the most staunch Remainers

Multiple polls from different sources have shown this. And that areas with the least immigrants wanted to leave (due to 'immigrants')

 

[Lime]

Top post. Well said.

It's complete bullshit and has nothing to do with EU.

 

[Trojita]

Good possibility



Is this true...do they (the voters) have money? This chart another person posted....



Makes me think it's the poor and the uneducated that voted for this. The US has a major problem with poor and uneducated voters.

Wealth and education are in DIRE need of being spread out and cleaned up in the US. Things have become massively lopsided. You have a massive majority of poor uneducated people here. I don't know if that's true for the UK.

The poor and uneducated vote for things that are going to fuck themselves over the most while the other side tries to protect them from themselves.

 

[metareferential]

while they actually dont wanna get asparagus out of fields..

Even if they wanted too, they couldn't live with it.

Low-pay jobs are the problem, not immigration. But the neo-liberal economy the EU represents exploits low-pay jobs for profit.

The result is the middle-class gets strange ideas.

If we are so clever in understanding why leaving the Union is bad, we should have been so clever to understand its faults years ago.

Now it's too late. Thank you, politics.

 

[Acorn]

There have already been murmurings of voter regret - http://theweek.com/speedreads/632139/some-brexit-supporters-now-say-already-regret-voting-leave-eu

MSNBC was talking about how they voted with their heart, not facts. Voting Leave as a form of "protest". They weren't voting for what's logically best for the country, they were voting for what they felt in the moment was best for the country based on fear spread by the likes of Johnson.

Fucking idiots will feel the consequences of this the most.

 

[Frankfurter]

Crazy regulations for one.

I know in my region where it's quite deprived and work is very hard to find. China stole our industry and then EU regulations on fuel consumption finished the rest off.

The regeneration money promised by the EU stopped years ago and our region has been left to rot. I know leave had a majority here.

What kind of fuel consumption regulations are you talking about?

 

[Bishop89]

Have the royals commented yet?

 

[ClosingADoor]

DOW Jones opens:

Not that bad. Seen worse days when China posts some bad numbers this year.

 

[Kinan]

So many dumb as fuck questions being asked by the public on Sky Sports news:

Do countries in the UK get kicked out of Euro 2016?
Are PL teams still allowed in the Europa/CL?
Will foreign players be kicked out?

Fucking dumb.

Well, these are stupid, but I heard that work permissions of >100 EU PL players can be affected by the Brexit (such as Payet), since they do not have enough national team matches.
Maybe one can see it as a good thing for giving a chance to young british players, but will most likely mean that PL level will drop.

 

[Volimar]

DOW Jones opens:

Was just getting ready to post.

 

[Lime]

Never seen a country blow its own brains out to spite the foreigners. How curious.

Racism and fear are a hell of a drug.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

This has most likely already been posted but I haven't seen it yet, so....


EU leaders call for UK to leave as soon as possible

Sharpening the knives, setting the example for the other nationalist voters in Europe.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Also, this

"...it's so gratifying to leave you wallowing in the mess you've made. You're screwed, thank you, bye."

I'm not even enjoying making fun of this situation but it's all I have. Friend just called me, his boss told him he probably won't be able to keep his job. He has a family in the UK and has been living there for 6 years now.

 

[Blader]

All this talk of xenophobia is hilarious.

Government has actively ignored everywhere outside of London for 2 generations and you're all surprised when the communities hit hardest by mass immigration bite back and vote out.

Leaving the EU doesn't actually stop immigration, much less the immigrants already living in the UK now, does it though?

 

[defel]

Very sad day to be British and particularly a sad day to be English.

Just a message to our fellow Europeans: A significant minority of this country want to be part of the EU, feel and identify as European and share the disappointment across Europe about the result. Remember that we are split as a country and try not to tarnish us all with the same brush.

Thankfully the next generations of Brits (or English & Welsh) are overwhelmingly European and want to be part of the process. Lets hope at some point in the future when we as a country are really ready to participate we can again.

Shame it has to fuck over an entire generation though.

 

[sphinx]

I don't get the people who say racism spearheaded this. It's not racism, it's people of a country who want control of who comes and goes. I'm an American, if the UK said I can't come to their country because I'm an American, so what? It's their country, I'd respect that decision.

but this isn't how it has been in the UK all this time.

despite being EU, they ALWAYS have had controls and checks at the borders.

I live in Germany and every single time I flew there with Ryanair to london they checked me like I was an outsider from any point on earth, they made no differences between EU folk and the rest..

this is what I find puzzling,

UK has always had strong regulations for letting people in, leaving the EU doesn't change anything because strict controls for immigrants have always been in place.

the fuck where they thinking?? that leaving the EU will keep "nasty and mean refugees" at bay??? fucking nonsense

 

[E-phonk]

This has most likely already been posted but I haven't seen it yet, so....


EU leaders call for UK to leave as soon as possible

Yup - sorry guys, but the UK leaving asap is in our (EU) best intrest now. I wish it were different.

 

[Dennis]

Mass immigration what? London is mass immigration central. And we voted remain.

Well, logically, why would the immigrants vote Leave?

If London is filled with immigrants the way the vote turned out there makes sense.

 

[dragonbane]

Nice. Even worse than expected

People should be more concerned about dark10x

He was ready to commit suicide last night. Really.

Really hope he is ok

 

[Red Arremer]

Not a top post at all, because again, areas with the most immigration = the areas that were the most staunch Remainers

Multiple polls from different sources have shown this

This is the same in Austria's presidential election as well, by the way.
The cities - especially Vienna - and Vorarlberg, both of which are the targets of most of the immigration, have voted for the liberal candidate. The rural areas with the least immigrants have voted for the right winger.

 

[Led_Zeppelin]

DOW Jones opens:

Remember to buy the dip, time to make some money out of suckers.

 

[nOoblet16]

So many dumb as fuck questions being asked by the public on Sky Sports news:

Do countries in the UK get kicked out of Euro 2016?
Are PL teams still allowed in the Europa/CL?
Will foreign players be kicked out?

Fucking dumb.

Will UK now finally be able to win Eurovision ? /s

 

[RoKKeR]

DOW is down 500. Wow.

 

[Prime crotch]

It's the fallout of years of ignoring a growing resentment from the lower economical classes and now exploded right in everyone's faces. Amidst misinformation, bastardization of language, such as immigrants being equivalent to refugees in many people's eyes, to plain old elitism that made people entrench even more in their negative views.

40% Leave in London is appaling, to say the least.

 

[Ephidel]

Government has actively ignored everywhere outside of London for 2 generations and you're all surprised when the communities hit hardest by mass immigration bite back and vote out.

Labour and the Tories have ignored the calls from your working class Brit to get a grasp on things and they've been ignored. Towns have been gutted, families have been hit hard by low wages, communities have been decimated by different cultures that don't try to integrate, the NHS and schooling have been hit hard by increased demand (and bad policy), affordable homes can't be built to compensate for the massive growth. People have genuine problems and they've been failed by both Labour and the Tories.

Of course the problem then becomes that as a result of this leave voters have given even more power than before to the exact people who have spent so long ignoring them.

 

[Acosta]

I feel terrible and ashamed to be part of a country that voted to leave the EU.

Please don't hate us Europe, so many of us did not want this.

I can't talk for anyone but me, but I love UK and will always do, far from hating.

I'm just as sad as you.

 

[theaface]

Look at what problems this 52% has and actually try to help them, don't just attack them. This notion from the far left that anyone who voted leave is either racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic or straight up an idiot has to stop because you're only going to add fuel to the fire.

How does Wales play into this equation? I think we can agree it certainly wasn't a priority for the London-centric Westminster elite. The EU pours loads of money into Wales to regenerate the region and the people there still vote leave. In what way, in Wales, was the EU not trying to help the ordinary people?

 

[kromeo]

Such a shame that the huge aging population who tend to vote with near 100% turnout and overwhelmingly towards leaving are the ones who'll be least affected by the result..

 

[Bumhead]

All this talk of xenophobia is hilarious.

Government has actively ignored everywhere outside of London for 2 generations and you're all surprised when the communities hit hardest by mass immigration bite back and vote out.

Labour and the Tories have ignored the calls from your working class Brit to get a grasp on things and they've been ignored. Towns have been gutted, families have been hit hard by low wages, communities have been decimated by different cultures that don't try to integrate, the NHS and schooling have been hit hard by increased demand (and bad policy), affordable homes can't be built to compensate for the massive growth. People have genuine problems and they've been failed by both Labour and the Tories.

Get out and actually talk to the people who vote. Talk to the people who have genuine concerns and complaints. When you simply shrug concerns off as xenophobic or bigoted (see Gordon Brown's classic blunder with the old woman) then you're actively shunning away real people with real concerns.

Look at what problems this 52% has and actually try to help them, don't just attack them. This notion from the far left that anyone who voted leave is either racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic or straight up an idiot has to stop because you're only going to add fuel to the fire.

100% correct.

People still parroting those same ridiculous assumptions now and wondering why the vote was lost.

It's vile. People who would consider themselves superior to their fellow electorate then spend the following day smearing anyone who voted the other way. Democracy.

 

[JoeM86]

Yup - sorry guys, but the UK leaving asap is in our (EU) best intrest now. I wish it were different.

Well Parliament still need to vote on it...

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

how to lie with straight face
https://twitter.com/m1897/status/746215377265266688

Damn, didn't even wait a day to tell people they got played.

 

[-duskdoll-]

There have already been murmurings of voter regret - http://theweek.com/speedreads/632139/some-brexit-supporters-now-say-already-regret-voting-leave-eu

MSNBC was talking about how they voted with their heart, not facts. Voting Leave as a form of "protest". They weren't voting for what's logically best for the country, they were voting for what they felt in the moment was best for the country based on fear spread by the likes of Johnson.

That is the most irresponsible and ignorant thing i have ever seen. This entire situation sounds like a big joke.

 

[Heckler456]

Top post. Well said.

What exactly is "top" in that post?

 

[SomTervo]

Well, logically, why would the immigrants vote Leave?

If London is filled with immigrants the way the vote turned out there makes sense.

Another fact is that the areas which voted Leave the most also had the least immigrants by far

In juxtaposition these two facts show some profound shit going on

 

[nOoblet16]

but this isn't how it has been in the UK all this time.

despite being EU, they ALWAYS have had controls and checks at the borders.

I live in Germany and every single time I flew there with Ryanair to london they checked me like I was an outsider from any point on earth, they made no differences between EU folk and the rest..

this is what I find puzzling,

UK has always had strong regulations for letting people in, leaving the EU doesn't change anything because strict controls for immigrants have always been in place.

the fuck where they thinking?? that leaving the EU will keep "nasty and mean refugees" at bay??? fucking nonsense

Hey now, that's not entirely true.
You do get a separate queue and quicker checkouts.

 

[Bernbaum]

You stupid motherfuckers!!!!

 

[Lime]

I'm not even enjoying making fun of this situation but it's all I have. Friend just called me, his boss told him he probably won't be able to keep his job. He has a family in the UK and has been living there for 6 years now.

I'm sorry to hear

I hope he recovers

 

[E-phonk]

Even if they wanted too, they couldn't live with it.

Low-pay jobs are the problem, not immigration. But the neo-liberal economy the EU represents exploits low-pay jobs for profit.

Even despite that - the EU has one of the most social working laws in the world.

 

[Acorn]

Well, logically, why would the immigrants vote Leave?

If London is filled with immigrants the way the vote turned out there makes sense.

Unless they are citizens they don't get to vote. Even if they can vote in generals.

 

[PdotMichael]

Leaving the EU doesn't actually stop immigration, much less the immigrants already living in the UK now, does it though?

Well, 7 of the 10 largest foreign groups in the UK aren't even from the EU. Blaming the EU never made sense for UK's immigration policy.

Should rather blame the British Commonwealth for "that problem".

 

[twobear]

All this talk of xenophobia is hilarious.

Government has actively ignored everywhere outside of London for 2 generations and you're all surprised when the communities hit hardest by mass immigration bite back and vote out.

Labour and the Tories have ignored the calls from your working class Brit to get a grasp on things and they've been ignored. Towns have been gutted, families have been hit hard by low wages, communities have been decimated by different cultures that don't try to integrate, the NHS and schooling have been hit hard by increased demand (and bad policy), affordable homes can't be built to compensate for the massive growth. People have genuine problems and they've been failed by both Labour and the Tories.

Get out and actually talk to the people who vote. Talk to the people who have genuine concerns and complaints. When you simply shrug concerns off as xenophobic or bigoted (see Gordon Brown's classic blunder with the old woman) then you're actively shunning away real people with real concerns.

Look at what problems this 52% has and actually try to help them, don't just attack them. This notion from the far left that anyone who voted leave is either racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic or straight up an idiot has to stop because you're only going to add fuel to the fire.

Sorry but this post is awash with misinformation. For one, the NHS has been gutted by government policy, not the EU. If you meet an EU migrant on an NHS visit they're statistically more likely to be working than in the queue with you. The EU pours money into the poorest parts of the UK (e.g. Cornwall) because Westminster is loath to do it. Those parts of the country don't like the EU because they've been told that the EU is a source of problems that have nothing to do with it. Non-EU immigration is controlled by Westminster too, and it doesn't take much of a fact check to see that UKIP posters showing hordes of Syrian refugees aren't really anything to do with Britain's EU membership.

 

[SomTervo]

This is the same in Austria's presidential election as well, by the way.
The cities - especially Vienna - and Vorarlberg, both of which are the targets of most of the immigration, have voted for the liberal candidate. The rural areas with the least immigrants have voted for the right winger.

Interesting. In the UK's case it wasn't actually a city/rural split, though. It was less well-off cities with no immigrants voting to leave (due to fear of immigrants) while more well-off cities with tons of immigrants voted to remain (because immigrants are good)

 

[Fantastapotamus]

I'm sorry to hear

I hope he recovers

Well, he is originally from Turkey (I mean, he has never been there in his live and was born in Austria but he looks "turkish" I guess) so he was probably one of those mean immigrants everybody was afraid of. So it's his fault, really. (But thanks, I'm sure he will be fine. He's way smarter than me, so he'll figure something out)

 

[DistortionOfReality]

The Remain campaign has treated most of the Leave voters with contempt after their parties ignored them for decades. If you watched the debates you would have seen Remain campaigners calling the Leave campaigners stupid liars etc. If you are a Leave supporter I can see how the implication is that they are stupid for believing them.

But I mean.... The data only backs this up. Especially when combined with the FUD the leave campaign was spreading (in fairness, Remain also did their fair share of lie spreading).

Of course most people don't want to call other people 'stupid' for falling on the other side of an arguement, but it is a fact that the uneducated are more easily swayed by these cheap campaign tactics.

Having said that I still don't agree with shouting it in campaigner's faces, but I can totally understand the frustration.

 

[Kotetsu534]

I think posters claiming "everyone that disagrees with me is an ignorant moron" are missing the point on why this happened, though.

If you look at where the votes went, it's clearly not along party lines. This isn't a right vs left thing, or a north vs south thing. It's almost entirely an inner-city vs everyone else thing. Almost all of the events in the political make up of the UK since the recession can be seen through a lens of people outside of cities feeling like they've been left behind, ignored, not been appreciated and aren't represented by their leaders. Unless someone genuinely feels like the people of Scotland have some magic fairy dust that they put in the water that makes everyone there lovely and liberal despite having basically the same financial situation as the rest of the country, it's clear to me that the SNP have managed to fill a gap left by Labour wherein the people of Scotland do feel like their have politicians who understand them and represent them and know what it's like to be them. The SNP were then rewarded for this at the ballot box and the people of Scotland don't wish to rock the boat by voting out of the EU.

Those people in the rural communities in England and Wales that feel like they've been ignored do want to rock the boat. For some it's seen as about immigration and for others jobs and for others waiting times at hospitals or wage suppression or sovereignty or whatever other reason, but it fundamentally comes down to people being fed up of their voice not being heard and wanted to do something to make it get heard and bring about change, because they're fed up with a distant elite that doesn't understand what is important to them. So to people surprised at why this results come in (and it's surprised me, but to read this thread you'd think there'd be scarcely more than a handful of people that'd vote to leave), I think that's why. Dismissing all these people as idiots or ignorant or stupid or lied to by the press despite every major party's machine working towards a remain vote and half the media (including some of Mordoch's papers, by the way, so don't give me that shit) is missing the point entirely. This is a representative democracy and these people feel like they aren't represented. Quelle surprise.

I was going to write something very similar to this, but here it is. I would underline that the divide between the prosperous, well educated classes in the university cities and London and the rest of England and Wales should be emphasised. It is a chasm. Nor is it in any way unique to the UK (see US politics). The political class has tried to awkwardly ignore it for as long as they could, even when it was breaking the electoral map apart. They can't now.

 

[GHG]

It's complete bullshit and has nothing to do with EU.

It's not bullshit, all those issues he talked about are very real in the UK.

There are people who voted leave simply because they wanted to stick two fingers up to the government who they feel has failed and neglected them.

 

[Acorn]

Even despite that - the EU has one of the most social working laws in the world.

Laws the tories will piss over with glee.

 

[MassiveNights]

100% correct.

People still parroting those same ridiculous assumptions now and wondering why the vote was lost.

It's vile. People who would consider themselves superior to their fellow electorate then spend the following day smearing anyone who voted the other way. Democracy.

The post is nonsense.

It's so close to the truth in the sense that governments HAVE ignored the working class.

But to then suggest the problem is mass immigration is completely fucking mental.

Britain's problems start and end with austerity, not immigration and especially NOT EU economic migration.