PJV3
Member
It's full on creepy.
I have always been on the left of labour and this stuff is making me hate the party.
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UK Labour Leadership Crisis: Corbyn retained as leader by strong margin
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It's full on creepy.
I have always been on the left of labour and this stuff is making me hate the party.
Rubbish!
These are not even two weeks apart. Just because it was in the middle of the campaign does not make it fine and dandy, she is still a hypocrite. If she couldn't speak the truth and only pretended to be supportive of him then what's to say she isn't doing the same now to get the balls rolling against Corbyn..since that's what everyone seems to be doing.
It is how human beings operate. At work, at home, in politics.
I mean, you are holding them to an impossible standard. On one hand your complaining 'they never supported Jeremy, they undermined him from the start'. On the other hand, when they did support him but now don't 'what a treacherous cow'.
Other than literally never speaking in public there is no way to win here I can see?
Thornton Reed
Member
that needs to be in bold
So you think she was supporting him? Because the guy who replied to me a few posts before yours says that she did so because of the campaign. It's not really supporting him if they were ready to take a stab with one and shaking hands with other. Which is exactly what people have been talking about when they say Corbyn never had support to begin with.
Less that two weeks...those two statements.
Yes ofcourse I'll say "what a treacherous cow". I didn't say that for Hilary Benn because he didn't swing between these two extremes in such a short time.
A candidate needs to have at least 50 Mp's who back them to put up a challenge. They will then go to a membership ballot.
(It's 25 when there is no leader in place )
So the PLP do have a say.
It's just they are all shit
So in your mind, two weeks ago, when asked, what should she say?
Because I can guarantee if she had said what she thought you would have been screaming from the rafters for her head for disloyalty.
That's the thing - it's impossible for anyone to win. Corbyn can never fail, he can only be failed etc etc.
PJV3
Member
It's impossible.
The PLP should split away, call themselves real Labour and get on with it.
captain wow
Member
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/748652708912046080
Not sure if posted yet but here are the results of the Leatherhead North (Mole Valley) local election.
Massive swing to Lib Dems from Conservatives.
Also happened to vote remain. Wonder if this is going to be a bit of a trend.
Not sure if posted yet but here are the results of the Leatherhead North (Mole Valley) local election.
Massive swing to Lib Dems from Conservatives.
Also happened to vote remain. Wonder if this is going to be a bit of a trend.
It seems to me that the Lib Dems have a genuine chance at picking up massive amounts of seats. The Tories have gone right and Labour has gone hard left. It's left the centre practically uncovered.
If I was a moderate from either party the Lib Dems are looking mighty appealing at this point.
And the longer the Labour party continues with this puritanical BS the worse the bleed will be.
If I was a moderate from either party the Lib Dems are looking mighty appealing at this point.
And the longer the Labour party continues with this puritanical BS the worse the bleed will be.
The problem is you always have to take into account first past the post (which is a shitty, archaic voting system, but there we are). So while lots of people voted Remain, constituencies which did so are few and far between. Do the Lib Dems even field candidates in Northern Ireland? Will they be able to take seats off the SNP in Scotland when independence is more popular than ever? Can they defeat Labour in London and Liverpool? If buyer's remorse sets in countrywide, they might be able to capitalise - as is, they'll probably have to settle for minor gains and take a large leap in vote share as a consolation.
Which is why the Tories won't call for a GE. They probably would under normal circumstances since Labour can't do shit, but UKIP will probably have a platform of "they're not doing this quick enough" and then the Lib Dems working on "We can fix this and pretend it never happened!" could both be vote winners in certain areas.
Tories do only need to lose 13 seats to lose their majority though. It's going to depend how they and Labour handle this omnishambles over the next years.
Again though, most Tory constituencies voted Leave. Even mine, which is ostensibly in London, only voted Remain by about 2,000 votes out of 180,000. I'm obviously not saying it's impossible, particularly after the last week, but it's an uphill battle.
Best case scenario at this point is a progressive alliance between Labour, the SNP, the Lib Dems, the Greens (or the Green, as it were), and all the other randoms. If you can't imagine Corbyn leading Labour, as no rational person can, can you imagine him leading that monstrosity?
CyclopsRock
Member
The Eagle quotes, to me, read like she supporting him as long as she could until she basically couldn't do so anymore. In the same way discussions with Putin are always "full and frank" rather than "pointless and scary", you're never going to say "yeah, he's a bit shit" in the middle of a campaign where you're on the same side.
It's bollocks. It's specifically saying Jeremy is doing everything he can, changing to Jeremy didn't try hard enough.
One of those statements she's flat out lying about. Not even "bending the truth"
Seriously, you have created an impossible situation.
She is not, in the middle of a really important referendum, going to take pot shots at the leader. That would not only harm the campaign, it would also have Corbyn supporters like yourself shouting for her to be hung from the rafters. Of courser she is going to say Corbyn is doing everything she could - she's in the damn shadow cabinet, she isn't stupid enough to attack the leader mid-referendum no matter how she feels. You can't say that the cabinet never showed him support when evidence of them showing him support is used to prove they are liars!
It is an impossible standard you have created, that ignores all logic. She can't ever win.
If that is the case then you don't come out a few weeks later saying the exact opposite, you just let it go and try for other attack angles, else you undermine your own credibility. It's a bad look.
There is a massive difference between taking potshots and saying
"Jeremy is up and down the country, pursuing an itinerary that would make a 25-year-old tired. He has not stopped."
And then saying "he didn't try hard enough"
EDIT: If she wanted to attack him on it after she could have said "as I said previous, he was up and down the country, but as usual with Jeremy he was preaching the same message to people who already support him, he didn't do enough in areas that he needed to win support" or something similar
Are you really that naive? She said what she said because it was in the best interest of the party. The party wanted to win the referendum, calling out the leader for being a disinterested wanker wasn't going to help. Now it's in the best interest of the party to remove him.
So in other words, he wasn't trying hard enough. Which he wasn't. He went on holiday in the middle of the campaign for god's sake, he didn't give a shit. He's not willing to play the game and such a person will never get into government.
Don't call me naive and then say she's doing things in the best interest of her party
She is, though. Corbyn has overwhelmingly lost the support of the PLP, it's game over. What's best for the party is to draw a line under his inept leadership and find someone else. Someone who isn't Angela Eagle, hopefully.
jakonovski
Member
It would've been a good idea to find someone before trying to stage a coup, because now it looks like they're just a bunch of headless chicken running around. Which is not at all better than Corbyn.
It's less of a coup at this point and more a flat out, party wide rebellion by every elected official. Coup implies some sort of plotting in a smoke filled room - it would have to be a frigging huge room given how many have left.
I don't think there was a huge plan to be honest. It felt like things came to a head with the result, and all the stories that came out that showed Corbyn and his office had deliberately undermined the Remain campaign. People were, and still are, utterly furious about that in a way that's hard to describe. He did something so contrary to what most elected labour politicians feel that it pushed them into this.
He is utterly, utterly incapable of leading the party in parliament, which ultimately is the entire job - not standing in Parliament square preaching to socialist worker candidates and people calling for attacks on labour MPs. If you cannot lead the party in parliament, you cannot be leader, full stop. If he had any trace of decency or respect for the party he would resign - but as someone who has spent their life fighting the party it seems like he'd rather go down in flames with the party than try and stop what's happening and this government.
I don't think there was a huge plan to be honest. It felt like things came to a head with the result, and all the stories that came out that showed Corbyn and his office had deliberately undermined the Remain campaign. People were, and still are, utterly furious about that in a way that's hard to describe. He did something so contrary to what most elected labour politicians feel that it pushed them into this.
He is utterly, utterly incapable of leading the party in parliament, which ultimately is the entire job - not standing in Parliament square preaching to socialist worker candidates and people calling for attacks on labour MPs. If you cannot lead the party in parliament, you cannot be leader, full stop. If he had any trace of decency or respect for the party he would resign - but as someone who has spent their life fighting the party it seems like he'd rather go down in flames with the party than try and stop what's happening and this government.
Even though Eagle created and "Angela 4 Leader" Website a couple of hours before Benn started it all off
Note I said huge plan. I think she had ambitions definitely - but the size of this rebellion is utterly unprecedented in politics. People who got jobs on Monday were quitting on Wednesday. He's literally incapable of fulfilling his duties as leader of Her Majety's Opposition at this point because there are not enough MPs who will work with him.
I don't think the entire party got behind this. I think a fe individuals kicked it off, and Jeremy's behaviour and performance has turned it into a tidal wave. That combined with the constant feedback we are getting that labour voters won't vote for him and any politician who wants to still have a seat after the next election wants him out.
Politicians are self-serving, news at eleven. One person's leadership ambitions do not invalidate the tide of opinion from within the PLP.
If Corbyn wasn't such a selfish dick he would have resigned last week, he seems to think his bog-standard anti-austerity message is worth destroying the party over.
My favourite is people saying "We don't want a normal sound bite politician, Jermey is different".
He is literally a sound bite politician. Blair and Brown both had solids, concrete plans about what they were going to do and how they would get there. All Jeremy Corbyn does is repeat the same damn messages about austerity that WE KNOW AREN'T WORKING. It's so frustrating.
I know the Tories are wrong about this. The party knows. But you don't get anywhere by just saying the same damn thing time and time and time again and hoping that at some point someone starts to listen to you. That's not how politics works.
If he had any ability beyond "protest mode" he would have a completely different message right now following the referendum. But no, we're back to the same damn speeches saying nothing new at all and ignoring the referendum. Because now is when people will finally tune in?
PJV3
Member
Corbyn is done for even if he's 100% in the right. The electorate are not going to forget the mutiny when the PLP said he wasn't fit to lead.
It's over.
JonathanEx
Member
https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/748810591532306435
Oh good that'll really help unite the party
They wanted Brexit. More and more it's becoming apparent that the far left group surrounding Corbyn wants us out of the EU, because they are still fighting the same battles they fought in the 70s and 80s.
Meanwhile the Telegraph and Farage are talking about wholesale removal of workers rights when we leave the EU...
EDIT: for clarity, as I've nee pressing for a centrist response to Brexit that keeps us in Europe. A good labour position for me would be to accept (and apologise) for communities that have become ostracised and left behind due to the changes that have happened, including immigration. But that free movement is vital for our economy and the health of the nation - the mistake was not funding services properly in the right areas. Guarantee additional funding for schools, doctors, hospitals and housing for any area with levels of immigration to ensure everyone gets the services they need.
Camp Freddie
Member
I can see the LibDems picking up a lot of remain votes and returning to their Nick Clegg position of kingmaker with a sizeable minority in a hung parliament. But if Corbyn stays, we could see a split vote in the opposition that gives the Tories a clear majority under FPTP. LibDems gain, but Labour loses massively.
IMO New Labour voters and liberal Tories would switch to LibDems and flip a fair number of marginal seats.
But the LibDems have lost the student vote to Corbyn. They'll probably go to the Greens if Corbyn gets kicked out.
Angela Eagle stands no chance and is just a stalking horse for Hillary Benn and whoever else wants the leadership. They need to trigger a leadership election first, before they even think about tipping their hand.
I don't think she's being especially hypocritical. Her comments read as "He tried his best and put in a lot of effort, but the message was mixed and unclear". She could've been more clever/weaselly in her word choice, but that only proves that she's not a leadership-class politician.
Corbyn's been saying the same thing since the 70s, why would he change now?
I mean, it's not like the anti-austerity message has gotten him anywhere anyways, may as well keep up with it!
Coriolanus
Banned
Technically, it has.
Either way, we back to "until the plp actually has a plan on how to remove him, open hostility only weakens the party further".
Aargh arrgh aargh.
Dennis Skinner gives an interview where he says:
"You need to be able to argue the case that, right at the bottom, the workers need more help... We need them to acting on behalf of workers, getting rid of zero hour contracts...
When will they learn that talking about the lowest 10% of the country doesn't work when you need the votes of 50% of the country? Right now do you think zero hour contracts are a huge vote winner? They weren't for Ed Miliband, now we are in the middle of Brexit and they still want to talk about the same fucking stupid thing that hasn't won us an election and hasn't shifted the polls but if we keep on talking about it again and again and again and again it will soon!
Zero hour contracts have many issues - but you will never, ever win an election on them, and the fact that was the thing Skinner went to to advocate for Jeremy Corbyn sums up why his leadership has failed so badly, and why people like him and Skinner are best suited to being protest candidates who advocate for the bottom. We need people like Skinner and Corbyn in parliament to push these issues - but they shouldn't be running parties or leading *anything*.
Dennis Skinner gives an interview where he says:
"You need to be able to argue the case that, right at the bottom, the workers need more help... We need them to acting on behalf of workers, getting rid of zero hour contracts...
When will they learn that talking about the lowest 10% of the country doesn't work when you need the votes of 50% of the country? Right now do you think zero hour contracts are a huge vote winner? They weren't for Ed Miliband, now we are in the middle of Brexit and they still want to talk about the same fucking stupid thing that hasn't won us an election and hasn't shifted the polls but if we keep on talking about it again and again and again and again it will soon!
Zero hour contracts have many issues - but you will never, ever win an election on them, and the fact that was the thing Skinner went to to advocate for Jeremy Corbyn sums up why his leadership has failed so badly, and why people like him and Skinner are best suited to being protest candidates who advocate for the bottom. We need people like Skinner and Corbyn in parliament to push these issues - but they shouldn't be running parties or leading *anything*.
It's the same horseshoe you saw in the US w/ Sanders/Trump both arguing protectionist/populist know-nothing economic policies.
jakonovski
Member
Ok, am I missing something because this seems like reactionary right wing stuff.
It's not campaign season, it's a real issue that in fact impacts more than 10% of people, and even if it didn't what's a workers' party that ignores workers' problems out of convenience? It's also Brexit time and has led to workers' rights already being under attack.
I'm ranting because this was the reason Dennis Skinner gave for Jeremy Corbyn being the right leader. And because whilst it is important, it is not the main fight of the Labour Party. We have to be a party that actually wins elections and appeals to a majority of voters, not just a small slice. Zero hours contracts is absolutely something that needs looking at - but it is not a reason to form a government. The fact that that was given by Skinner as the reason for Corbyn sums up for me why he has been a failure as a leader and needs to go now.
You cannot form a government out of a protest movement which doesn't impact on the majority of people. It didn't work for Ed Minliband and things are far worse now. It's not right wing to complain that the party is myopically focusing on pet issues whilst ignoring the fact we actually have to win an election to do ANYTHING about zero hours contracts.
You cannot form a government out of a protest movement which doesn't impact on the majority of people. It didn't work for Ed Minliband and things are far worse now. It's not right wing to complain that the party is myopically focusing on pet issues whilst ignoring the fact we actually have to win an election to do ANYTHING about zero hours contracts.
I don't want to speak for Maledict but I think it's more about what you emphasise. UKIP want to scrap bedroom tax but it clearly isn't why most people vote for them. Labour can still be committed to ending zero hour contracts, but it clearly isn't the wedge issue that Miliband hoped it would be.
Yes. Zero hour contracts need looking at (I'm not in favour of banning them completely, because there are people who want them) but they clearly need to be addressed. They just aren't the backbone of a campaign, and they aren't the sort of thing that gets you an elected government. You need to be *for* something, not just always against things.
Whatever happens to the Labour party, the Tories have been decimated for at least a generation.
I can't see the young vote for them, and I can't see graduates nor progressive liberals vote for them either.
And now we get unelected PMs fighting their corner. And moving the party more right.
I can't see the young vote for them, and I can't see graduates nor progressive liberals vote for them either.
And now we get unelected PMs fighting their corner. And moving the party more right.
CyclopsRock
Member
All because of Europe? Or something else?
No sensible politician is ever going to shit on the leader of his/her own party before/during the election. What matters is what they say behind the doors.
When has Tory election strategy ever been based on those groups?
the tories will win probably the next 3 elections
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