gutter_trash
Banned
so.... 10 more years of Tory rule
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UK Labour Leadership Crisis: Corbyn retained as leader by strong margin
- Thread starter Hazzuh
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Yep. No-one in their right mind ever thought a leader would stay on after losing a vote of no confidence. Thatcher *won* hers and still resigned. The people who wrote the constitution and process didn't make resignation mandatory because it never occurred to them the leader would stay on.
People don't seem to understand what the job of the leader actually *is*. The primary responsibility is to lead the PLP in parliament, a task to which Corbyn has demonstrated complete incapacity over the last year.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I don't feel like Corbynites actually care that much about Corbyn specifically. They want what he represents. And the trouble is that there's nobody who represents what Corbyn does with leadership talent. And the reason for that is that nobody is just a naturally talented leader (or very few people, at least), it's a learned skill, picked up by rising through the ranks of being a junior spokesperson and then member of the shadow cabinet and so on, and the right of the Labour party systematically denied entry to these positions to anyone from the left. So the right is busy saying: "you can't possibly elect someone with so little media skills!" but it reads like "you can't possibly elect anyone except us", because they did a lot to harm the development of alternative talent. It's unsurprising the membership response is "fuck off and on yer bike"; they feel (to an extent quite fairly) it's entirely understandable Corbyn doesn't have the natural polish and that he should have been given much more patience and understanding in developing it. The fact that the right instead threw a hissy fit in less than a year really undermined their case.
I voted Smith, and I'm actually quite impressed at how quickly Corbyn has been learning the tricks of the trade without having any frontline experience in politics before this. For example, look at the Question Time hustings - Smith got absolutely manhandled by Corbyn. If I hadn't known who was supposed to be the electability candidate going into that, I'd never have guessed it wasn't Corbyn. He's not anywhere near election-winning, but I do wonder what might have been if there could have been a more amicable approach by the Labour right from the very beginning. I feel like it would have gone better for both them and Corbyn, and indeed the Labour party. A gracious defeat would have gone a long way. Corbyn was almost certainly never going to be a winner, but I think in hindsight he would have been salvageable, whereas in our timeline the PLP has slagged him off as heavily as they can without realizing it wouldn't knock him off the leadership post, hurting the both the PLP and Corbyn at the same time.
I voted Smith, and I'm actually quite impressed at how quickly Corbyn has been learning the tricks of the trade without having any frontline experience in politics before this. For example, look at the Question Time hustings - Smith got absolutely manhandled by Corbyn. If I hadn't known who was supposed to be the electability candidate going into that, I'd never have guessed it wasn't Corbyn. He's not anywhere near election-winning, but I do wonder what might have been if there could have been a more amicable approach by the Labour right from the very beginning. I feel like it would have gone better for both them and Corbyn, and indeed the Labour party. A gracious defeat would have gone a long way. Corbyn was almost certainly never going to be a winner, but I think in hindsight he would have been salvageable, whereas in our timeline the PLP has slagged him off as heavily as they can without realizing it wouldn't knock him off the leadership post, hurting the both the PLP and Corbyn at the same time.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
In my head the labour members are at home on Pirate Island. They sent off their voted for representation with their voted for captain in hopes of fish, gold, a better NHS, whatever. But the crew on the ship are seeing problems with their captain. Captains talked good game on shore but out in the briney deep he's not as good as he's selling, or maybe it's unfair to him, and the guys at home just have far too much belief and have oversold the poor fool. Maybe their haul won't be big enough, maybe they'll have no better standards in education to send back to Pirate Island. So, knowing the Island will be pissed at them, they try and take over because they see it as hopeless otherwise.
Long story short if Corbyn gets an eyepatch and parrot he's a shoo-in for PM.
He was telling them he was going to stay on and there was polling from his base supporting him. It was reckless wishful thinking for them to play this game. They can't argue pragmatism and competence when their decision making is completely disconnected from good outcomes for the labor party.
However you frame the analogy the point is that they didn't have the backing they needed, they knew it and still went forward. It doesn't matter how poor a leader Corbyn is if your reaction is pointless posturing that just creates chaos. It's just throwing a tantrum when you know you are going to lose.
I don't think you appreciate exactly how unusual and totally insane staying on as leader of the party is. It has never happened before in political history. And everyone always says they are staying on before a vote - that's just what you do.
Staying on after losing a vote is utterly bananas. It's literally the core of the job and he can't do itz
Staying on after losing a vote is utterly bananas. It's literally the core of the job and he can't do itz
WhateverItTakes
Banned
I still can't fathom why they went through with the coup really, they had such a small chance of success. Besides making sure Corbyn wasn't on the ballot which would have been a dumb decision for a whole host of reasons. Were they banking on Brexit riling people up enough to go against Jezza? Smith/Eagle being more inspiring than could ever be expected from them?
As you say there were only negative consequences coming from this. It makes me think the PLP's belief that his leadership would ruin the Labour party maybe even beyond the next election was/is incredibly strong. So what do they do now nothing's changed?
Unless, and this is bordering on impossible, this whole thing was followed through anyway just to get people thinking 'Right, we can't get rid of him, guess I've got to follow the bastard'. Maybe try and get people to listen to his message and look beyond the cult of personality.
If there had been a snap general election and Corbyn was still leader, do you think that would have led to a good outcome for the labour party?
Certainly better then the current circumstances. Either way they are going to lose elections in the short term. That way the PLP has a stronger electability argument and Corbyn doesn't have the excuse of party sabotage. Then if they get their shit together and put forward someone who somewhat aligns with the membership politically. They may have a legitimate chance of a change in leadership instead of throwing a political tantrum.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Was there a PREFERRED LANGUAGE pamphlet handed out to cult members this week or was it just word of the day on dictionary.com?
Mixture of both. But sure, the officers told the captain they disapproved of his leadership and turned to the crew to elect a new captain. The crew then quite overwhelming rejected their argument and voted for the old captain to stay on.
So it's up to those officers to decide what to do now, to either stay on and help keep the ship afloat, or leave if they still disapprove of the leadership.
Exactly. People aren't blind to Corbyn's faults, and of course he has to improve quickly. But if he lacks polish it's because the likes of Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott have been denied any sort of leadership position in the past.
travisbickle
Member
A lot of people were left behind by globalised capital and they're angry.
The Freudian slip by the PLP putting Corbyn on the ballot last year shows some within Labour are also questioning (consciously or not) how capital currently works.
Then the Brexit vote! another anger cry from the people who aren't getting anything out of the current system.
Labour could have used Corbyn to gauge real opinion on the current situation, but they have too many politicians who don't want to listen and instead believe they can get back in power and carry on Blair's idea of chipping the tax around the edges of the billions made by bankers, Russian oil men etc...
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Equally, I don't think the membership ever expected a party to call a VoNC in a leader overwhelmingly backed by the membership. That's never happened before in British political history. So we sort of found ourselves at an impasse. Incidentally, the Labour constitution doesn't actually even have a proviso for VoNCs - the one conducted by the Labour Party was informal/advisory. I might be wrong, but I don't think there's actually been a VoNC in the Labour Party leadership before. Certainly not in post-war history. The means of displacing a Labour party leader that people disagreed with was always: put up a challenger who can beat him. No challenger, no dice.
Honestly, the VoNC should *never* have happened. I know it wasn't really organized and the coup was a sort of reactionary shambles from the start with no clear leadership or intent, but I'm still baffled that 172 Labour MPs could be so unaware of the temperament or condition of their own party. Was there really no cooler voice to say: look, no Corbynite will get the nominations necessary, but Corbyn remains intensely popular in the Labour Party, and will therefore personally remain to contest the challenger, so let's not do this, because we will lose and it will be a complete waste of time that destroys any and all political capital we had?
I say this out of complete and total frustration, not in spite or malice. The Labour right haven't just fallen out of popularity with the party now, they've razed it to the ground and salted the earth. For a wing that talks so fervently of electability and political pragmatism, they've managed to lock themselves out of power for a good generation, at least - you will have to wait for an entire batch of new faces before any of them has any standing at all.
EDIT: And if they continue with this mutiny even after this result, it just gets worse. Either they will force the membership into deselecting them, or when Corbyn loses in 2020, the membership will continue to blame them, and just back Corbyn/a Corbynite again. There's just no logic to what they're currently doing.
Ironically, this is also a pretty fine summary of the Labour right's attitude over the past year.
Randy Lanzarote
Member
Amusingly, Iain Duncan Smith won the Tory leadership contest with 61% of party members voting for him. Although, his party took 2 years to call for a VoNC.
I'd imagine the PLP thought there'd be more outrage at the Brexit result amongst rank and file members, but they got that one very wrong.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
IIRC, polling showed his stock had nose-dived even among Conservative members at that point. I'd have to dig the archives to be sure, though.
Yup. A third of Labour voters wanted Brexit, another segment didn't blame Corbyn for the result, and there wasn't enough left (heh) over to displace him. They should have kept their powder dry.
Randy Lanzarote
Member
I wouldn't be surprised, although he was probably retained the support of the blue rinse/Eurosceptic brigade, many members probably had come to realise that IDS wasn't going to be winning elections anytime soon.
Although in a ruthless display of Tory efficiency IDS was dispatched to the backbenches and Michael Howard installed as leader without having to worry about those pesky party members bungling another leadership contest.
PLP must look on in envy.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I've never really understood what the point of being a Conservative party member actually is. They have far more imposed candidates than the Labour does, and incredibly infrequent leadership contests that mostly involve a fight between two centrist candidates by the time the MPs are done with it. If I lived in, say, Whitney, I wouldn't have been able to do anything more interesting than nominate a parish councillor since 2005. And people pay money for this, apparently? Baffling.
I know Cyclops is in it for the "posh totty", but there must be cheaper alternatives...
I know Cyclops is in it for the "posh totty", but there must be cheaper alternatives...
The opportunity to muck in, going door to door to actually talk to real people about voting against their best interests is probably highly appealling to a certain kind of person.
Well if you pay enough you get to have lunch meetings with the PM. The lower classes probably get some good connections too.
What the bottom rung get I can't fathom.
Randy Lanzarote
Member
Day out at Brighton once a year.... ?
Its the hard hitting stuff that the voters look for in a potential government.
A whole day? That's pretty tempting tbh.
Today has been a clear indication of Labours problems
Thornberry banging on about nuclear disarmament, while a shibboleth for the left just isn't a major issue for most people
Osamor talking about massively increasing the international aid budget, again popular on the far left but not hugely popular with anyone else.
McDonald having to spent half of every interview defending comments about McVey.
Lewis saying that Labour is for Trident and for Nato when we know the leader isn't. The problem as we saw from the EU referendum is that Corbyn struggles to put aside his personal opinion and back the party line. I appreciate it's a difficult thing to do but it's probably the number one aspect of party leadership, occasionally you have to defend the personally indefensible because it's the parties position. Leaders don't get to state personal opinions if they can't get the party to back them.
After all he's asking the PLP to back him despite of their personal views because it's the parties position.
Thornberry banging on about nuclear disarmament, while a shibboleth for the left just isn't a major issue for most people
Osamor talking about massively increasing the international aid budget, again popular on the far left but not hugely popular with anyone else.
McDonald having to spent half of every interview defending comments about McVey.
Lewis saying that Labour is for Trident and for Nato when we know the leader isn't. The problem as we saw from the EU referendum is that Corbyn struggles to put aside his personal opinion and back the party line. I appreciate it's a difficult thing to do but it's probably the number one aspect of party leadership, occasionally you have to defend the personally indefensible because it's the parties position. Leaders don't get to state personal opinions if they can't get the party to back them.
After all he's asking the PLP to back him despite of their personal views because it's the parties position.
How is the accurate description of an ideology in the context a discussion about two ideologies clashing in a party anything but normal? Just because Blairites and liberals are in denial about the politicians and system they support that doesn't mean the rest of us should accomodate that denial.
Fucking politics.
When you think about it Ed Miliband was probably the most centrist (in terms of the right left split in the Labour party) leader they could have got.
Largely left leaning policies* which he dressed up to be more right facing than they actually were. Good for party unity but no wonder the electorate were a bit nonplussed.
*so left leaning that Corbyn's domestic policy suite is largely the same, beefed up in scope and shorn of the wishy washy dressing Ed put on.
Largely left leaning policies* which he dressed up to be more right facing than they actually were. Good for party unity but no wonder the electorate were a bit nonplussed.
*so left leaning that Corbyn's domestic policy suite is largely the same, beefed up in scope and shorn of the wishy washy dressing Ed put on.
Talking in absolutes and extremes helps absolutely nobody in a political discussion. Things are more complicated than this. Am I a Tony Blair fan? No. Did he do some stuff I consider good? Yes. Did he do a lot of stuff I consider bad? Yes. Would I blame him for everything wrong or right with the UK today? Dafuq, no. It all adds up to a complex and undulating political landscape that isn't black or white.
A sticker for their rear(-window).
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
He was the hero we deserved, but not the one we need right now.
Nicktendo86
Member
The PLP putting Corbyn on the ballot wasn't a Freudian slip, he was lent nominations by MPs who thought he would be beaten easily and knocked out in the early rounds. It was a massive miscalculation, not a subconscious questioning of capitalism.
Nicktendo86
Member
To think, the battle in Labour going on now is control of the NEC in order to change the voting rules so that McDonnell can replace Corbyn when the time comes.
I mean, Corbyn is bad, but McDonnell is a whole different level.
killer_clank
Member
How is any of it anti business? He's saying businesses should pay their fair share of tax and pay their workers a living wage. If you can't do that then you shouldn't be in business, frankly.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
If Clive Lewis ran against McDonnell, McDonnell wouldn't win. Most Momentum people I know are quite lukewarm on him. I don't think the NEC is being prepped to allow him to run; much more likely one of the next-gen Labour left.
Could you explain in more detail what parts of what he's said are, in your view, 'anti-business'? I think it would be useful for me.
Nicktendo86
Member
Says here there is a rule change to be voted on for a challenger to only need 5% of MPs to get on the ballot, unless that is wrong/plans have been changed?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...eply-unpleasant-man--and-jeremy-corbyn-wants/
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
No, I know this is happening, but I don't think it is being done for McDonnell specifically - that's just PLP mutterings. It's more likely being done for someone like Lewis.
You have to mourn the death of the sort of consensus cabinet politics that worked so well for Wilson and Callaghan. Benn's policy platform was totally nuts but it's hard to argue he didn't have the capacity to lead the party because he had so much experience by 1979. The same is true for Foot.
Unfortunately, treating the cabinet with contempt seems like one of the few areas where there is continuity between Blair and Corbyn lol.
Nicktendo86
Member
One to keep an eye on
what?! another case of exaggerating to discredit?! well i never!
Dr Zhivago
Member
Was there a PREFERRED LANGUAGE pamphlet handed out to cult members this week or was it just word of the day on dictionary.com?
There should be QI-style klaxons going off whenever someone says 'neoliberal'.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Momentum have revoked the conference pass of a jewish israeli radio journalist an hour after granting it to him, just to add yesterday's ranting about jews.
Coriolanus
Banned
JonathanEx
Member
So it looks like Team Corbyn really wants people to come together nicely.
And by that I mean Seums Milne is a meddling arse, and edited Clive Lewis' defence speech to change their attitude to Trident renewal but without really planning in advance, just doing it directly onto the autocue.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...ive-lewis-trident-speech-changed-seumas-milne
And by that I mean Seums Milne is a meddling arse, and edited Clive Lewis' defence speech to change their attitude to Trident renewal but without really planning in advance, just doing it directly onto the autocue.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...ive-lewis-trident-speech-changed-seumas-milne
Who doesn't like a plum-mouthed-received-pronunciation-speaking girl that can be extra filth? Liz Hurley, you complete me.
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