A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Depends on you definition of solo. Whether that includes assists or not.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
No one is talking about nerfs, just high vs average damage. I don't even want Nova's damage to be nerfed.
Halving damage just creates more problems for characters like Firebrand, Storm, Strider and then again for characters like IF, Ghost Rider, Captain America, Haggar, Hulk who hit hard but have trouble getting hits in so they are helped in the current meta game where they only need one hit. Best they could do now is just reduce values on certain characters like Doom, Zero, Viper, Vergil, Spencer etc.
Halving damage just creates more problems for characters like Firebrand, Storm, Strider and then again for characters like IF, Ghost Rider, Captain America, Haggar, Hulk who hit hard but have trouble getting hits in so they are helped in the current meta game where they only need one hit. Best they could do now is just reduce values on certain characters like Doom, Zero, Viper, Vergil, Spencer etc.
Karsticles
Member
I was talking about nerfs, since Panda asked for my standards.
Halving damage doesn't create problems for reset-based characters. It makes them more competitive. In the current meta, it's just better to pick a character who can kill in 1 hit. If you can't kill in 1 hit, then it becomes more important to have good resets. The current meta devalues reset-based characters.
Think of it this way.
Character A does 900K damage per combo, but has poor resets.
Character B does 600K damage per combo, but has good resets.
Average character health is 900K.
There's no reason to pick Character B over Character A, because Character A does what character B does in one combo instead of two.
Cut damage in half:
Character A does 450K damage per combo, but has poor resets.
Character B does 300K damage per combo, but has good resets.
Previously, Character A needed 0 resets to kill, and Character B needed 1 reset to kill. Now, Character A needs 1 reset to kill, and Character B needs 2 resets to kill. Now that resets are actually worthwhile, Character B's "good reset" ability is noteworthy, and there's an argument to be had over whether you'd rather get big damage with poor reset opportunities, or weak damage with good reset opportunities. There's actually an argument to be had now between the two characters, while there wasn't one before.
Going by what Dahbomb said he would be normal, though he has loop potential his base damage is normal. his Round Trip BnB (which is spacing dependent) does 750k for 1 bar, no assists.
That argument still holds in Marvel 3. Would you rather play 1 million BnB on point Haggar or would you play 800K BnB Magneto/Wesker? People would still play Mag/Wesker because they can zone you/chip you for 100K damage before going for the kill or 1 reset a million health character. Hell I would play 700K BnB Deadpool/Hawkeye before I play Haggar. Some people prefer playing Haggar for the 1 hit TODs.
Of course the characters with tons of tools and 1 million BnBs (Zero/Viper) are excluded from this argument because there is no reason why you wouldn't play a character like that.
Of course the characters with tons of tools and 1 million BnBs (Zero/Viper) are excluded from this argument because there is no reason why you wouldn't play a character like that.
But he does around 1 million STARTING with 1 bar and an assist. He is sort of an exception in that he gets to surpass normal damaging characters by having meter on deck thanks to his loops.
Karsticles
Member
That's why adding in assists makes things tricky. If you give Firebrand 2 assists, hit damage barely changes. If you give Vergil 2 assists, his damage gets a significant boost. And like Dahbomb said, things are especially weird with Vergil because of loop potential.
The difference here is that in current Marvel, 1 million bnb with Haggar has 100K wasted damage on most of the characters that get used. 800K bnb for Magneto/Wesker tends to kill in 1 combo still due to chip damage done along the way, and if you're a little short you can DHC. It's not quite the same situation, especially since Haggar has good resets. He just has trouble getting in. I was comparing high damage/poor resets vs. low damage/good resets.
Well that's why the argument is sort of doesn't work because character damage and toolset is all over the place in Marvel 3. I gave an example of a situation where a single reset character choice would be better than TOD character choice and I could also provide an example of a high damaging TOD character being a better choice than a low damage character choice (like say Dorm vs Ammy). Of course in this case strict BnB damage isn't everything, damage from chip is still a major factor in the current meta.
Halving damage would give benefit to characters who can chip you to death simply because they would have more lives/more time on the field to inflict chip even if chip was halved across the board. You would also have to increase timer to make up for this as well as halve meter gain. Only then you would effectively mega nerf Phoenix. It's not an easy fix as to just half all the damage in the game.
Halving damage would give benefit to characters who can chip you to death simply because they would have more lives/more time on the field to inflict chip even if chip was halved across the board. You would also have to increase timer to make up for this as well as halve meter gain. Only then you would effectively mega nerf Phoenix. It's not an easy fix as to just half all the damage in the game.
Karsticles
Member
I disagree. The argument works because, all other things being equal, it would still improve the general status of resets in the game, which is also an improvement to reset-based characters.
It would also not help chip characters. It takes a lot of work to chip someone down. This would simply mean that you have to play the keepaway game perfectly for a much longer period of time. Consider my team. If I get Dormammu in with 5 bars, my flares deal 1.5 million chip damage before I run out of meter. If that got cut to 750K damage, I wouldn't even be able to chip out a character with 5 bars of meter + Dark Harmonizer! That's a major nerf to my gameplan. Punishment hypers like Gimlet would also be much less fierce. Dr. Strange would become an ass-tier character without serious changes (since all he has is SoV punishes and SoV XFC).
I don't know why you mentioned Phoenix.
Meter generation should likely stay the same as it is now. Or, in other words, double meter generation since we're halving damage. A timer boost would definitely be necessary, but I don't think anyone would be deeply upset about that aside from tournament organizers. I don't believe I ever said "halve all damage and change nothing else in the game", so I'm not sure why you are saying it's not as easy as that, since no one is saying such.
bistromathics
facing a bright new dawn
what is the ridiculous fly/unfly corner combo Filipino Champ does with doom? He keeps the dude in the air for so long
I mentioned Phoenix because meter is usually related to damage so I was assuming that meter gain would be nerfed alongside damage in your version. If that's not the case then a Phoenix team would be even stronger because it would take more hits to bring a Phoenix vanguard down which means more meter generated for the Phoenix team. This also applies for zoning teams where chip would generate more meter than before relatively because it will take more hits to chip them. It would revert the Phoenix meta game to Vanilla days.
Anyway we are both on the same page here, I wouldn't mind a damage reduction all around but they need to balance the other stuff in the game first. Damage nerf is useless when characters can do TACs and reset characters are still marginalized by existence of TACs. I would want there to be fixes on TACs before anything else.
Anyway we are both on the same page here, I wouldn't mind a damage reduction all around but they need to balance the other stuff in the game first. Damage nerf is useless when characters can do TACs and reset characters are still marginalized by existence of TACs. I would want there to be fixes on TACs before anything else.
Karsticles
Member
I don't think it would be too big of a different for Phoenix team. Yes, it's a buff, but people are rarely uninformed enough to actually plow through the team to Phoenix these days. Most people go for the intelligent snap-in, and if we're talking about Firebrand maxing out at 300K damage, then she'll still die in a DHC.
Agreed. Fuck TACs. Non-random, and retains damage decay (or maybe drops it just a little bit so ABC TAC stuff doesn't drop).
I'd definitely be more inclined to agree, if most combos started off normally. Most hits start off with Round Trip or Rapid Slash and they skew damage heavily. Again, that's solo not counting Beam + Teleport starters. Also the Dimension Slash BnB varies between 600~640k.
JeTmAn81
Member
I don't really know. 10% or less of the people I run into online are courteous, and that's not an exaggeration. Literally 90% of online players are jerks to me. Something dark is lurking in their hearts...and heaven help you if you decide to play top tier. They REALLY don't like that.
Karsticles
Member
I'd say it's the opposite for me. 1/10 people are rude, but I'm doing Player Matches, and my team is unique. Even when I have perfected people doing nothing but unblockables with Firebrand, people have PMed me with compliments and add me to their friends list. I very rarely get trash talk or rudeness.
Though I get an equal number of people saying "your Dorm is ass" and "your Dorm is amazing". Go figure.
Then we agree: Vergil is high damage!
JeTmAn81
Member
You are on PSN though, which is generally better than XBL for attitudes. I've encountered my fair share of numbskulls on PSN as well, though. People really hate teleporters. Don't get me wrong, I meet nice people on either network, and sometimes add people to my friend's list, but the average random is usually a troll.
crimsonspider89
Banned
Damage nerfs and changes should be done on character by characters. Characters with better mobility and mix ups should do less damage. Slower characters with less mix ups should have higher damage. This allows the heavy characters to maintain getting play as well as the mobile characters.
That is my opinion.
That is my opinion.
MiniBossBattle
Member
I think its a TAC only combo. Its a meter building monster combo.
"God's Beard!"
Member
With that in mind Spencer needs to be taken out of the game.
Zero as well.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Fact: Iron Man> Captain America
Characters also have different frame data on raw tags.
Zero can do a million damage meterless?
Characters also have different frame data on raw tags.
Zero can do a million damage meterless?
Well starting from 0 meter yea he can do 1 million damage. That was the whole point of the discussion.
Professor Beef
Banned
I don't praise drunks, unless that drunk is Stone Cold Steve Austin.
"God's Beard!"
Member
His criteria is 1 bar damage, and his max can be done by Spencer with no bar.
Well yeah I am not denying that Spencer outclasses Zero in damage, I was just saying both belong in the category "LOL Damage".
Yup, they both do stupid damage. Spencer outclasses Zero in meterless damage but LoLightning Loops.
Who cares that much about how much bar you use as long as the combo is meter-self sufficient?
Some of this damage stuff seems a little divorced divorced from reality also- combo damage off of optimal starting hits in the right part of the screen with specific assists shouldn't necessarily be cause for alarm. I'm sure spencer can do a million meterless, but generally on stream you see spencer players, even with teams set up specifically to maximize up-grapples, having to use one or even two supers with spencer to seal the deal. I don't know if it's laziness, the impracticality of the million damage meterless stuff, or what- but it's not really being done yet. On the other hand, zero's absurd damage is regularly consistently achieved by good zero players these days- everyone dies off of any touch in real match situations, no doubt about that.
Some of this damage stuff seems a little divorced divorced from reality also- combo damage off of optimal starting hits in the right part of the screen with specific assists shouldn't necessarily be cause for alarm. I'm sure spencer can do a million meterless, but generally on stream you see spencer players, even with teams set up specifically to maximize up-grapples, having to use one or even two supers with spencer to seal the deal. I don't know if it's laziness, the impracticality of the million damage meterless stuff, or what- but it's not really being done yet. On the other hand, zero's absurd damage is regularly consistently achieved by good zero players these days- everyone dies off of any touch in real match situations, no doubt about that.
Karsticles
Member
Marvel conveniently leaves out all the drunk flying accidents Tony has while in his suit.
We were trying to come to an agreement about what makes a character "high damage". Morrigan can link 5 bars worth of hyper to kill Thor, but she's not a high damage character.
That's why I mentioned meter self-sufficiency. Nothing that involves net meter loss should really enter into the discussion, right?
shaowebb
Member
Wow I just saw a pretty hilarious tournament thing over on TYM for MK9 (just picked it up and I gotta say I'm surprised and loving it).
The idea is each player in the tourney lists the characters they main the most or are the absolute best at...these characters are BANNED for that player. People then quote that player and the first character to get 3 votes is who he has to play in the tourney.
Its pretty insane to see a "let the forum pick your main" tourney, but it sounds pretty hilarious.
Any idea how this could be setup for UMVC3 since its a game with 3 characters? Maybe list your best dudes, ban em and people vote for 1 dude you got to build a team around without anyone on your list of mains? What's everyone's thoughts on this because it sounds pretty hilarious.
The idea is each player in the tourney lists the characters they main the most or are the absolute best at...these characters are BANNED for that player. People then quote that player and the first character to get 3 votes is who he has to play in the tourney.
Its pretty insane to see a "let the forum pick your main" tourney, but it sounds pretty hilarious.
Any idea how this could be setup for UMVC3 since its a game with 3 characters? Maybe list your best dudes, ban em and people vote for 1 dude you got to build a team around without anyone on your list of mains? What's everyone's thoughts on this because it sounds pretty hilarious.
Professor Beef
Banned
This tournament would have the most Iron Mans anyone has ever seen.
shaowebb
Member
Professor Beef
Banned
This has got me curious, so I'm gonna check who my lowest used characters are. The results may be skewed since I used a bunch of random characters with Arthur when I was playing H&H with my Multiple Man deck.
Karsticles
Member
I once proposed a tournament like this, but no one took me up on it:
Everyone lists their top 10 played characters by use on the character select sheet. Everyone has to compose their team of characters outside of this top 10.
Alternatively, you could do:
Everyone lists their top 10 least played characters. Everyone has to compose their team out of the characters on this list.
Professor Beef
Banned
- Tied for 39th - (I don't know how the game orders this, so whatever)
- Morrigan
- Felicia
- Chun-Li
- Trish
- Tron
- Spencer
- Zero
- Haggar
- Vergil
- X-23
- Phoenix (the one nobody likes...Jean)
- Taskmaster
All have 0 uses. I'm shocked that I apparently used Magneto 3 times.
- Morrigan
- Felicia
- Chun-Li
- Trish
- Tron
- Spencer
- Zero
- Haggar
- Vergil
- X-23
- Phoenix (the one nobody likes...Jean)
- Taskmaster
All have 0 uses. I'm shocked that I apparently used Magneto 3 times.
I would love to participate in a tournament like that. The worst part about playing a fighting game competitively is that, once you reach a certain point, large chunks of the character roster effectively cease to exist as more people start to rely on the top tier stuff. Part of the fun of UMvC3 is being creative with team construction and there's a lot left to explore in this game; it's always nice to see people get out of their comfort zones, too. Look at what Chris G has accomplished by playing around with several different types of teams.
Edit: Hah, it looks like I should take some of my own advice. I've only ever used 13 characters in ranked matches, and only 10 of them have been used more than 15 times. I've never used Wolverine, Haggar, Crimson Viper, Doctor Doom, She-Hulk, Wesker, Zero, Chun-Li...
My ten most used characters:
1) Arthur
2) Tron
3) Super Skrull
(Large gap)
4) Firebrand
5) Chris
6) Rocket Raccoon
7) Viewtiful Joe
8) Frank West
9) Deadpool
10) M.O.D.O.K.
Edit: Hah, it looks like I should take some of my own advice. I've only ever used 13 characters in ranked matches, and only 10 of them have been used more than 15 times. I've never used Wolverine, Haggar, Crimson Viper, Doctor Doom, She-Hulk, Wesker, Zero, Chun-Li...
My ten most used characters:
1) Arthur
2) Tron
3) Super Skrull
(Large gap)
4) Firebrand
5) Chris
6) Rocket Raccoon
7) Viewtiful Joe
8) Frank West
9) Deadpool
10) M.O.D.O.K.
Based on my player card with results inflated from my brother and I sharing the console:
1. Dante - 1510
2. Strider - 895 (I kid you not)
3. Crimson Viper - 537
4. Vergil - 340
5. Zero - 330
6. Amaterasu - 262
7. Phoenix (JEEEEAN) - 87
8. Doctor Doom (WTF?) - 86
9. Hawkeye - 81
10. Magneto - 65
Some of these stats are pretty fucking interesting looking at it now. As for a tournament without access to anyone of these... I'd probably get murdered but I like the idea. :lol
Interestingly enough, Felicia is right there at #11 and now I'm thinking who I'd grab to run with her all while looking at Taskmaster most specifically.
1. Dante - 1510
2. Strider - 895 (I kid you not)
3. Crimson Viper - 537
4. Vergil - 340
5. Zero - 330
6. Amaterasu - 262
7. Phoenix (JEEEEAN) - 87
8. Doctor Doom (WTF?) - 86
9. Hawkeye - 81
10. Magneto - 65
Some of these stats are pretty fucking interesting looking at it now. As for a tournament without access to anyone of these... I'd probably get murdered but I like the idea. :lol
Interestingly enough, Felicia is right there at #11 and now I'm thinking who I'd grab to run with her all while looking at Taskmaster most specifically.
Karsticles
Member
I like a "bottom 10" tournament.
Edit: I'll post my bottom 10 in a day.
Edit: I'll post my bottom 10 in a day.
My top ten most played are:
1. Dante
2. Strider
3. Trish
4. Vergil
5. Spencer
6. Wesker & Sent tied, weirdly enough. Didn't think I played Sent that much.
8. Deadpool
9. Taskmaster
10. Magneto
Bottom 10 are, in order from least to most:
1. Shuma-Gorath
2. RR and Thor
4. Tron and Super Skrull
6. Spidey and X-23(which is weird, since I play those two in training mode a lot. Guess I never take them into any actual matches since I have yet to find a good team for either of them)
8. MODOK
9. Hulk
10. Cap
Well... if I ever played a team out of those bottom ten, I'd probably pick Cap/RR/Skrull. Cap because he's easy, RR for LOG TRAP, and Skrull for scrubby XF3.
1. Dante
2. Strider
3. Trish
4. Vergil
5. Spencer
6. Wesker & Sent tied, weirdly enough. Didn't think I played Sent that much.
8. Deadpool
9. Taskmaster
10. Magneto
Bottom 10 are, in order from least to most:
1. Shuma-Gorath
2. RR and Thor
4. Tron and Super Skrull
6. Spidey and X-23(which is weird, since I play those two in training mode a lot. Guess I never take them into any actual matches since I have yet to find a good team for either of them)
8. MODOK
9. Hulk
10. Cap
Well... if I ever played a team out of those bottom ten, I'd probably pick Cap/RR/Skrull. Cap because he's easy, RR for LOG TRAP, and Skrull for scrubby XF3.
He can actually
It's never going to happen in a match though.
Spencer's damage in ideal situations is ridiculous, yes. But I'm pretty sure his damage drops quite a bit once he no longer has that. Outside of the corner he loses some damage immediately. Off of random airborne hit confirms and air throws he does even less.
Zero with the right team will air throw Thor at super jump height and proceed to kill him.
Zero loses negligible amounts of damage from sub-optimal starters. Throw scaling is practically nonexistent. In practice I think he's far more ridiculous than Spencer could ever be.
And he's also a better character.
shaowebb
Member
I went to check my bottom 10 for Ultimate and its pretty messed up considering I've only played about 200 matches on it since it came out within a month of me giving up practicing due to college. I'll post my bottom 10 for vanilla too.
UMVC3 /Vanilla Bottom 10
My Top Tier is pretty wild too since I never really played top guys
UMVC 3/Vanilla Top 10
I don't even have live right now, but this is fun to look at.
UMVC3 /Vanilla Bottom 10
- Dorm-0/ Tron-18
- Phoenix-0 /Phoenix-20 ( I don't like the bitch.)
- She-Hulk -0/ Shuma-20
- Wesker-0 (suck it top tier!)/ Felicia-22
- Shuma-1/Chris-22
- X-23 -1/Morrigan-27
- Thor-1/Hsien Ko -31
- Morrigan-1/Arthur-32
- Deadpool-2/Trish-35
- Akuma-3/Jill-36
My Top Tier is pretty wild too since I never really played top guys
UMVC 3/Vanilla Top 10
- Iron Fist-195/Ryu-597
- Sentinel-111/Sentinel-512 (Thank GAAAAWD for the Robot. Thank GAAAAWD for the machine.)
- Ryu-81/Haggar-260 (Mayor of Earth for Top 3 baby)
- Rocket Raccoon-78/Spencer-244
- Nova-65/Taskmaster-182
- Chun Li-62/Chun Li-178 (some things stay the same)
- Taskmaster-50/Wolverine-177
- Storm-47/She-Hulk-163
- Ghost Rider-46/Deadpool-123
- Haggar-45 (How did he drop to 10th!?!?!)/Hulk-119
I don't even have live right now, but this is fun to look at.
I wish match records were a feature in this game so badly. I need Viper material to practice with. While her neutral is great, I have no clue what to do when it's time to pressure. Actually, that's the bulk of my issues playing this game. I can't pressure for anything.
Edit: Damn, I want to play some matches but I know I'm about ready to call it a night.
My god Vergil is the BEST character to DHC into...
The mother fucking ending of this made my goddamned YEAR.