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Undertale |OT| Indie RPG with determination and spider bake sales

shaowebb

Member
I don't understand the greatest game of all time polls. The same 10 games are gonna be there for eternity - Ocarina of Time, Super Mario Bros, Super Mario 64, FF7, MGS1 etc

Point is simple...to see if anyone has risen the bar and rose up to stand amongst some of the greatest legacies in the industry. Right now...Undertale has proven that the indies can produce something as powerful as any experience that came from the big guys.
 

Eusis

Member
It probably mainly got attention BECAUSE of Undertale getting as high as it did. I literally didn't know this was going on until LOOK AT HOW UNDERTALE'S DOING AGAINST POKEMON.
 
Should I just restart my genocide run?

Stuck at
Undyne and the only healing items I have are the three snowman pieces, and I can't backtrack and stock up until I beat her.
 

Theosmeo

Member
Honestly loved Undertale and I supported it every step of the way, but now that we've gotten to it vs melee I´m going to have to betray the Undertrain.

They are two different games that both do what they´re doing almost perfectly but Undertale is just weighed down with pacing problems near the end of a pure pacifist run and the extra content for the genocide run felt phoned in(that ending was so dumb). It is an amazing experience for the first four humorous hours but that´s all you really need to see from it that hasn't been done better elsewhere.

Melee on the other hand is such a deep game the meta is still evolving 14 years after its release with the discovery last month of VI and the recent significance of Luigi and Yoshi in the meta. While it may only have 4 or so competitively viable characters, it´s still an extremely well crafted, speedy game. Even if that wasn't the original intention.
 
I've been thinking about it a lot lately, and I'd like to talk about the Pacifist ending a little more.

Basically, I want to save Asriel, and the inability to do so cuts rather nastily against the game's themes in a way that I'm pretty sure is intentional.

One of Undertale's big themes is that everyone can be pulled from the fire- there's no one who's actions are so heinous that they cannot be helped, even if you have to play merry hell with the timeline in order to do so (hi, Asgore). A pure pacifist run is pretty difficult, and to ensure that you're not going to kill even one monster is not the easy route out, but it feels like it pulls it's punches at the death with Asriel- he simply cannot be redeemed for longer than a few minutes, and the player is given no option other than to abandon him to his fate in the flower patch. Asriel is, lest we forget, an innocent, who paid for his friendship and his refusal to harm others with painful death, soullessness, a never ending cycle of repeating mistakes and the nihilism which comes from all of that. To not even have the option to do anything other than give him a hug and leave him to suffer through the same hellish existence all over again... Not for me. No one has to die, but no one should have to live like Flowey either.

Flowey is, of course, the game's most nihilistic character, and to leave Asriel to turn back into him with absolutely no opportunity or even chance to save him from it... Well, that's heartbreaking. I fully understand that's what Toby Fox was going for, and all credit to him for inspiring these kinds of emotions for a character that we barely meet, but to go through all the work of SAVING Asriel in the last battle only for him to be doomed as soon as it's done... It doesn't quite sit right with me. Asriel makes a great self-sacrifice at the end of the game, and I'd like the player to be given the option to make one instead.

Of course, saving Asriel shouldn't be easy. Generally in this game, the heavier the character's sins the more difficult it is to show mercy, and Asriel's actions almost bring about the end of the world several times. There should be some stringent conditions to ensure that only the most dedicated players will even want to try, of course, and some heavy consequences for failure. Pretty much every idea I've read on the subject of saving Asriel requires the player to make countless runs through the game, and to tear up the happiness in the true ending for a chance to save one more person. The moral implications of jeopardising a happy ending for the chance of a slightly happier one feels like a theme that would be well within Undertale's wheelhouse, and the idea of judging the player for wanting the happiest ending possible regardless of the consequences would be an interesting take that the main pacifist ending didn't touch on all that much. Whether the method's some Sans-tier extra fights, or having to replay the game at a higher difficulty, or even sacrificing your own morality- how evil would it be if the only way to save Asriel was to do a genocide run?- it would have to mean something tangible for the player.

I think that any permanent saving of Asriel would have to impact future playthoughs, too. In much the same way that the player's decision to be as much as a bastard as possible leaves marks on the game, so should any decision that amounts to self-sacrifice. Honestly, I wouldn't mind too much if the game actually locked you out from playing it again having saved Asriel, particularly if the method of doing so is the long-speculated "Frisk gives Asriel his SOUL" way, but I'm pretty sure that would be breaking EU regulations if nothing else. There should be something, though, be it locking you into hard mode in all future playthroughs, or even just changing the endings like the genocide run does. Something as big and difficult as permanently redeeming Flowey should linger, be it for good or bad reasons.

BTW, I've seen Toby's tweet about future updates only being bug fixes, and I don't fully buy it. It would be so typical of this game for a bug fix patch to contain important new content hidden away, and adding content is explicitly mentioned in-game. It's not like I'm at all unsatisfied with the game as it stands, but I'm not at all convinced we've seen the last of it.
 

Diamond

Member
It's basically just a yearly popularity contest.

Also seems to be heavily skewed towards big budget console and japanese games. That's why it's funny to see Undertale among the last games.

I've been thinking about it a lot lately, and I'd like to talk about the Pacifist ending a little more.

Basically, I want to save Asriel, and the inability to do so cuts rather nastily against the game's themes in a way that I'm pretty sure is intentional.

One of Undertale's big themes is that everyone can be pulled from the fire- there's no one who's actions are so heinous that they cannot be helped, even if you have to play merry hell with the timeline in order to do so (hi, Asgore). A pure pacifist run is pretty difficult, and to ensure that you're not going to kill even one monster is not the easy route out, but it feels like it pulls it's punches at the death with Asriel- he simply cannot be redeemed for longer than a few minutes, and the player is given no option other than to abandon him to his fate in the flower patch. Asriel is, lest we forget, an innocent, who paid for his friendship and his refusal to harm others with painful death, soullessness, a never ending cycle of repeating mistakes and the nihilism which comes from all of that. To not even have the option to do anything other than give him a hug and leave him to suffer through the same hellish existence all over again... Not for me. No one has to die, but no one should have to live like Flowey either.

Flowey is, of course, the game's most nihilistic character, and to leave Asriel to turn back into him with absolutely no opportunity or even chance to save him from it... Well, that's heartbreaking. I fully understand that's what Toby Fox was going for, and all credit to him for inspiring these kinds of emotions for a character that we barely meet, but to go through all the work of SAVING Asriel in the last battle only for him to be doomed as soon as it's done... It doesn't quite sit right with me. Asriel makes a great self-sacrifice at the end of the game, and I'd like the player to be given the option to make one instead.

Of course, saving Asriel shouldn't be easy. Generally in this game, the heavier the character's sins the more difficult it is to show mercy, and Asriel's actions almost bring about the end of the world several times. There should be some stringent conditions to ensure that only the most dedicated players will even want to try, of course, and some heavy consequences for failure. Pretty much every idea I've read on the subject of saving Asriel requires the player to make countless runs through the game, and to tear up the happiness in the true ending for a chance to save one more person. The moral implications of jeopardising a happy ending for the chance of a slightly happier one feels like a theme that would be well within Undertale's wheelhouse, and the idea of judging the player for wanting the happiest ending possible regardless of the consequences would be an interesting take that the main pacifist ending didn't touch on all that much. Whether the method's some Sans-tier extra fights, or having to replay the game at a higher difficulty, or even sacrificing your own morality- how evil would it be if the only way to save Asriel was to do a genocide run?- it would have to mean something tangible for the player.

I think that any permanent saving of Asriel would have to impact future playthoughs, too. In much the same way that the player's decision to be as much as a bastard as possible leaves marks on the game, so should any decision that amounts to self-sacrifice. Honestly, I wouldn't mind too much if the game actually locked you out from playing it again having saved Asriel, particularly if the method of doing so is the long-speculated "Frisk gives Asriel his SOUL" way, but I'm pretty sure that would be breaking EU regulations if nothing else. There should be something, though, be it locking you into hard mode in all future playthroughs, or even just changing the endings like the genocide run does. Something as big and difficult as permanently redeeming Flowey should linger, be it for good or bad reasons.

BTW, I've seen Toby's tweet about future updates only being bug fixes, and I don't fully buy it. It would be so typical of this game for a bug fix patch to contain important new content hidden away, and adding content is explicitly mentioned in-game. It's not like I'm at all unsatisfied with the game as it stands, but I'm not at all convinced we've seen the last of it.

Nice post. I agree the formula of playing the game again to try to change things for the better could have gone even further. Another game I'm thinking about is Nier, which you had to play four times, not the whole game, but a good chunk of it (if I remember correctly), to have the final ending. It gave a great meaning to it. I'm sure there's a lot of ways this kind of "replay-narrative" could be used in future games.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Making asriel unsaveable is more powerful I feel.

You can't save everything in the world, even with determination.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Still though, just from the amount of people wanting to save goat bro I'd say that it has a pretty big impact. :p
 
Still though, just from the amount of people wanting to save goat bro I'd say that it has a pretty big impact. :p

Undertale does characters well, and Asriel's backstory is expanded enough upon in the game and particularly in the battle against him for people to recognise the tragedy of it all, and to want to salvage the character from it. It's powerful to have it so that he's doomed to his fate, but it would (IMO!) be even more powerful if the player could be asked to back their sympathy for Asriel with actual effort.

I'm not saying that leaving Asriel as Flowey at the end was a mistake or anything like that (his fate as it stands is a powerfully bittersweet one, and it's clearly left enough of an impression on me for me to write my feelings up about it!), just that I feel an option to try and save him could potentially lead to some interesting thematic stuff, and could really bring some of the game's points home.
Also, Asriel is a sweet little innocent and I want him to be safe. :(
 

Saikyo

Member
Also, Asriel is a sweet little innocent and I want him to be safe. :(

1444301664927yypto.gif
 
Basically, I want to save Asriel, and the inability to do so cuts rather nastily against the game's themes in a way that I'm pretty sure is intentional.

So even after everything, the exact nature of souls in Undertale is a bit fuzzy -- they say that monsters are composed entirely of their soul, for example, which makes the Asriel situation hard to explain -- so the exact details of the ending with Asriel are fuzzy too. But I think the post-game warning screen with Flowey is actually significant to the plot.

Even though he's back to that form and therefore presumably without a "soul," he says he wouldn't do it again, asks you to please not reset things, and tells you that if you do you'll have to wipe his memories too for him to go back to the way he was. To me, that seems to clearly say that there's a meaningful sense in which you have saved Asriel -- not as "himself," which kind of follows given that he was actually dead the entire time, but by ensuring he doesn't actually turn back into the same type of spiteful villain he'd become before.
 

Weiss

Banned
The jist of things
with Flowey is that he is soulless, and he only turns into Asriel after becoming godlike and absorbing the six human souls and the entire monster population. Asriel's soul is completely gone, and he only came back as Flowey because the remains of his body were mixed into the flower Alphys used for the determination experiments.[

So when Flowey is begging you not to reset, that's what's left of Asriel, but I don't know if he's fully capable of actually feeling anything now that the souls are gone.
 

Syril

Member
I've been thinking about it a lot lately, and I'd like to talk about the Pacifist ending a little more.

Basically, I want to save Asriel, and the inability to do so cuts rather nastily against the game's themes in a way that I'm pretty sure is intentional.

One of Undertale's big themes is that everyone can be pulled from the fire- there's no one who's actions are so heinous that they cannot be helped, even if you have to play merry hell with the timeline in order to do so (hi, Asgore). A pure pacifist run is pretty difficult, and to ensure that you're not going to kill even one monster is not the easy route out, but it feels like it pulls it's punches at the death with Asriel- he simply cannot be redeemed for longer than a few minutes, and the player is given no option other than to abandon him to his fate in the flower patch. Asriel is, lest we forget, an innocent, who paid for his friendship and his refusal to harm others with painful death, soullessness, a never ending cycle of repeating mistakes and the nihilism which comes from all of that. To not even have the option to do anything other than give him a hug and leave him to suffer through the same hellish existence all over again... Not for me. No one has to die, but no one should have to live like Flowey either.

Flowey is, of course, the game's most nihilistic character, and to leave Asriel to turn back into him with absolutely no opportunity or even chance to save him from it... Well, that's heartbreaking. I fully understand that's what Toby Fox was going for, and all credit to him for inspiring these kinds of emotions for a character that we barely meet, but to go through all the work of SAVING Asriel in the last battle only for him to be doomed as soon as it's done... It doesn't quite sit right with me. Asriel makes a great self-sacrifice at the end of the game, and I'd like the player to be given the option to make one instead.

Of course, saving Asriel shouldn't be easy. Generally in this game, the heavier the character's sins the more difficult it is to show mercy, and Asriel's actions almost bring about the end of the world several times. There should be some stringent conditions to ensure that only the most dedicated players will even want to try, of course, and some heavy consequences for failure. Pretty much every idea I've read on the subject of saving Asriel requires the player to make countless runs through the game, and to tear up the happiness in the true ending for a chance to save one more person. The moral implications of jeopardising a happy ending for the chance of a slightly happier one feels like a theme that would be well within Undertale's wheelhouse, and the idea of judging the player for wanting the happiest ending possible regardless of the consequences would be an interesting take that the main pacifist ending didn't touch on all that much. Whether the method's some Sans-tier extra fights, or having to replay the game at a higher difficulty, or even sacrificing your own morality- how evil would it be if the only way to save Asriel was to do a genocide run?- it would have to mean something tangible for the player.

I think that any permanent saving of Asriel would have to impact future playthoughs, too. In much the same way that the player's decision to be as much as a bastard as possible leaves marks on the game, so should any decision that amounts to self-sacrifice. Honestly, I wouldn't mind too much if the game actually locked you out from playing it again having saved Asriel, particularly if the method of doing so is the long-speculated "Frisk gives Asriel his SOUL" way, but I'm pretty sure that would be breaking EU regulations if nothing else. There should be something, though, be it locking you into hard mode in all future playthroughs, or even just changing the endings like the genocide run does. Something as big and difficult as permanently redeeming Flowey should linger, be it for good or bad reasons.

BTW, I've seen Toby's tweet about future updates only being bug fixes, and I don't fully buy it. It would be so typical of this game for a bug fix patch to contain important new content hidden away, and adding content is explicitly mentioned in-game. It's not like I'm at all unsatisfied with the game as it stands, but I'm not at all convinced we've seen the last of it.

(pacifist and genocide spoilers)
The way I saw it, you already saved Asriel by forcing him to remember who he was. Despite everything Asriel or Flowey might say, Flowey was never inherently a bad person. Even without his ability to feel compassion, he still knew right from wrong. When he realized his power of determination, the first thing he did with it was solve everyone's problems and become friends with them, even knowing by then that he wouldn't feel anything for them. When he first started killing people, he knew it was wrong and had to make up excuses it justify it to himself ("'I don't like this,' I told myself. 'I'm just doing this because I HAVE to know what happens.'")

Flowey's backstory post-Asriel is really sad to me, because I feel like if he'd had someone who could have helped him besides his parents, he might have been able to come to terms with who he was and never become so detached that he would be willing to kill people countless times over in different ways just to see their reactions and reset time back countless years just to have his friend back who, by his own admission, he was projecting onto. During the ending, Asriel is convinced that he'll go back to being heartless when he becomes Flowey again, but we can see that he doesn't. Despite his lack of compassion, all he wants anymore is to let Frisk and company be happy. I'm not sure I'd call Asriel's current state a hellish existence. There's nothing keeping him in the Underground. In the final timeline he didn't cause any lasting harm to anyone at all and in fact freed all of monsterkind. With the kind of person he wants to be fresh in his mind he finally has the chance to put all his wrongdoings behind him and start over.
 
I think Asriel's existence as a flower is an inherently unsatisfying one, though, and even if the only one keeping him in the Underground is himself, it's still a prison. Bear in mind, even when Flowey tried to be good when he first changed, he still ended up on the brink of suicide. Even with the little speech he makes when you start the game up again, Flowey's still Flowey.

All of the factors that made Flowey Flowey are present and correct after the Pacifist ending, apart from his having other people to keep him occupied at all. Whether it's necessary or not, his fate at the end of the game is a horrendous one, and your attempt to redeem him doesn't really seem to have changed that.
 
The jist of things
with Flowey is that he is soulless, and he only turns into Asriel after becoming godlike and absorbing the six human souls and the entire monster population. Asriel's soul is completely gone, and he only came back as Flowey because the remains of his body were mixed into the flower Alphys used for the determination experiments.

So when Flowey is begging you not to reset, that's what's left of Asriel, but I don't know if he's fully capable of actually feeling anything now that the souls are gone.

My point was just that they claim in one place that there isn't anything to monsters besides their souls, but that clearly doesn't fully explain the situation with Flowey, and the ending implies that there's a little bit more nuance to it than the dry metaphysics explanation would suggest.

All of the factors that made Flowey Flowey are present and correct after the Pacifist ending

Except that he remembers everything that happened during the course of the game, and explicitly identifies that it changed how he sees things and how he's going to behave? I mean, I think you need to read against the text a bit to take it as entirely negative the way you're seeing it.
 

mbpm1

Member
I always imagined Flowey
just killed himself at the end. He can't save anymore, right? So there's nothing standing in his way.
 

mbpm1

Member
Flowey doesn't know what will happen if he dies, since he doesn't have a soul.

Whoops forgot the spoiler tags

Also yeah,
but I think if given the option between becoming what he was again and going elsewhere, he'd pick the former with less regrets because all he would care about would be happy now.

That was a small comfort to me on my run.
 
I always imagined Flowey just killed himself at the end. He can't save anymore, right? So there's nothing standing in his way.

Flowey tried to kill himself before, but his determination stopped him. I don't know that we've got enough information to say that it'd be any different this time.
 

Saikyo

Member
Just to remember some dialogues from Flowey

So...
I decided to follow in your footsteps.
I would erase myself from existence.
And you know what?
I succeeded.

But as I left this mortal coil...
I started to feel apprehensive.
If you don't have a SOUL, what happens when you...?
Something primal started to burn inside me.
"No," I thought. "I don't want to die!"
...
Then I woke up.
Like it was all just a bad dream.
I was back at the garden.
Back at my "save point."

Source

But yeah we dont know what gonna happen if he tried to kill himself again, after the true pacifist ending its vague what will happen with Flowey
 

mbpm1

Member
Flowey tried to kill himself before, but his determination stopped him. I don't know that we've got enough information to say that it'd be any different this time.
Idk, determination was what let him save, wasn't it? He can't do that anymore in the story timeline without other souls, so this may not come up if he tries again.

Not sure why he couldn't use determination to end himself either.
 

Kangi

Member
Rooting for the Melee fans to rally more. Not necessarily because I want it to beat Undertale, but because I want it to beat OoT if it does beat Undertale.

Nothing against OoT, of course. It just dominates these things so often that it'd be nice to see things shaken up.
 

jett

D-Member
HAH at Undertale winning. S M A S H B O Y Z can suck it.

Rooting for the Melee fans to rally more. Not necessarily because I want it to beat Undertale, but because I want it to beat OoT if it does beat Undertale.

Nothing against OoT, of course. It just dominates these things so often that it'd be nice to see things shaken up.

It will end up being FF7 vs OOT.

Like always.

Every damn time.
 

Weiss

Banned
Yeah, this really hasn't been some evil SJW sabotage. If it was between Undertale or Majora's Mask, Chrono Trigger and Shadow of the Colossus then I'd probably vote for them, but it's going up against games that I can acknowledge as being genuinely great; I just think Undertale is better.

I will actually die if Undertale beats Ocarina of Time but either way, losing to the the nigh-unanimously agreed upon Best Game Ever isn't exactly selling it short.
 
It's sad that this is hurting Undertale's image. It's a fantastic game, but most of the people who vote for it just want to fuel the saltiness.

If you disagree with the poll's results blame the rallies, Tumblr, GameFAQs itself or whatever, not the game.
 

FluxWaveZ

Member
It's sad that this is hurting Undertale's image. It's a fantastic game, but most of the people who vote for it just want to fuel the saltiness.

If you disagree with the poll's results blame the rallies, Tumblr, GameFAQs itself or whatever, not the game.

It really can't be. There'll be the typical vocal dissension for anything that gets this kind of exposure, especially something new and that is relatively small in scale and renown, but the attention this game is getting from this process will easily beat out any negative feedback it's getting as a result.

Those who like the game aren't going to suddenly be yelling at it because of this poll, those who haven't checked it out might be lead to because of this, and those who've never heard of it might learn what an Undertale is after this.

I also disagree with the notion that the results of this poll are not due to the game, but because of whatever agenda people might have to rile a group up. If that were the case, any stupid game could rise up the ranks and beat well known games. The reason Undertale is there right now is because of its own strengths.
 

DNAbro

Member
It's sad that this is hurting Undertale's image. It's a fantastic game, but most of the people who vote for it just want to fuel the saltiness.

If you disagree with the poll's results blame the rallies, Tumblr, GameFAQs itself or whatever, not the game.

Probably not hurting the image that much. I'm pretty sure most people voting are voting cause they genuinely like the game. The salty posts are just an entertaining plus. I do wonder how many people heard about this game through the contest though

Also I think people are taking way too much stock of a gamefaqs poll.

This is probably the most attention gamefaqs has gotten in years.
 

Kinsei

Banned
It's sad that this is hurting Undertale's image. It's a fantastic game, but most of the people who vote for it just want to fuel the saltiness.

If you disagree with the poll's results blame the rallies, Tumblr, GameFAQs itself or whatever, not the game.

I doubt it's hurting the image. The people that are going on about SJWs were never going to give the game a shot anyways.
 

Kangi

Member
More people seem to be going, "Woah, how'd a game so under-the-radar get so popular?" than "THING I'VE NEVER PLAYED IS POPULAR MUST HATE THING NOW".

Not that the latter train of thought won't get more popular as time goes on, but for right now, this is the first time a lot of people have heard of it and a good time to "spread the word".

But how the heck did we beat Melee? Even the top Melee players were spamming to vote for it on their Twitter accounts and whatnot.
 

Acerac

Banned
And the game won against melee.

Now to see the salt flows...

Every time the game wins more and more people rate it .5 stars on Gamefaqs.

Despite being one of the highest rated games on the site before the contest started more than 8% of the votes for Undertale now give it this lowest possible rating.
 
I also disagree with the notion that the results of this poll are not due to the game, but because of whatever agenda people might have to rile a group up. If that were the case, any stupid game could rise up the ranks and beat well known games. The reason Undertale is there right now is because of its own strengths.
I believe it's both. I doubt such a niche game could beat Mario, Pokémon and Smash all by itself in a popularity contest.

I'm sure the game will benefit from this exposure, all things considered. I'm just saddened to see so many hate posts.
 

mbpm1

Member
Every time the game wins more and more people rate it .5 stars on Gamefaqs.

Despite being one of the highest rated games on the site before the contest started more than 8% of the votes for Undertale now give it this lowest possible rating.

All this means is that a lower rated game is beating out classics somehow. Even better
 

DNAbro

Member
I believe it's both. I doubt such a niche game could beat Mario, Pokémon and Smash all by itself in a popularity contest.

I'm sure the game will benefit from this exposure, all things considered. I'm just saddened to see so many hate posts.

ehh it's pointless to care. People will find a way to hate what's popular.

Also I'm pretty sure Undertale has the contest in the bag. Even with the top melee players rallying it couldn't be stopped. Don't think OoT can stop it either.(and let's not pretend SMRPG is beating OoT)

Idk how SMRPG even got that far.
 
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