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[Venom Fox]

What is the maze?

In the very first episode we hear Ford telling Bernard:

"We've managed to slip evolution's leash now, haven't we? We can cure any disease, keep even the weakest of us alive and one fine day perhaps we shall even resurrect the dead, call forth Lazarus from his cave. Do you know what that means? That means we are done, that this is as good as we're going to get."

The bolded and the first part strike me as odd and the key to what I believe below.

"We've managed to slip evolution's leash now, haven't we?

This implies that Ford has found the final step of human evolution.

This imo contradicts what he says next about being able to resurrect the dead.

"One fine day perhaps we will shall even resurrect the dead."

This is the epitome of evolution, being able to resurrect the dead is the final step of evolution. Being able to cure all ailments and stop people from dying even when their at their weakest, the natural first and second steps towards the ultimate goal.

Humans have always dreamt of being able to live forever and humans will never stop until they reach that goal. Ford's tech has to come from somewhere so I presume that the ability to create fully synthetic humans, organs etc is how the world has cured all ailments and is able to stop people from dying.

"You know what this means? That we are done, this is as good as we're going to get."

This again implies that Ford has found the key.

The Key to being able to resurrect the dead is the Maze.

Harry Potter Grave quote "The last enemy to be destroyed is death".

Resurrecting the dead is physically impossible, bodies decompose and the brain is dead, ceases to function forever more. That's where Westworld, the Maze and more specifically the AI hosts come into play.

All through the season we've heard people say that Westworld is more than just a theme park, more than what meets the eye. Everyone who has mentioned it has stopped short of saying what that is though. I believe Westworld is simply a beta for the integration of fully self aware AI and I believe the Maze is the final test AI has to pass in order to become fully self aware. Once AI has become fully self aware humans will not be able to tell the diffence between a regular human and an AI that is a robot or computer. Ford has seemingly tricked people into believing Bernard is a human and I believe Bernard is proof that what I think Ford is doing is the truth.

I believe the Maze is a culmination of over 35 years worth of data that is being collected and interwoven which will be poured into the Hosts in order to unlock their full potential.

Westworld creates hosts that are near indistinguishable from other humans due to to way over the years, they've used the massive amounts of previous data to give them dreams, mannerisms and the ability to divert from their scripted "stories". We've seen that the new update from Ford (not Bernard) has given them the ability to greatly diverge from their set paths. He's literally creating a replica of the human mind with a full conscious. This is believe is Ford's plan for the next step of human evolution. Instead of raising the dead, which is physically impossible his ultimate goal is to create a perfect copy of human minds and raise the dead that way.

We've seen that after the latest update from Ford, Maive and Dolores have become self aware. Ford used Bernard to get Dolores to try the Maze because he believes his data and hosts are ready. Theresa leaking that data would have been catastrophic without the final test, the Maze, something which only less than a handful of people know about.

If successful, human minds could be transferred from human body to mechanical bodies. Sort of like a Soma situation. This would create a world where you cannot die. They have conquered death by evolving their bodies and minds.

To me the MiB believes that he can complete the Maze but he is told that the Maze "isn't for him" after he is told this, he drags Teddy along and I believe MiB will try and make Teddy complete the Maze for him.

I also don't believe there's two timelines. I believe it's all happening concurrently with the shows writers trying to throw us off intentionally. I believe the MiB will be repulsed at the idea that the Maze will allow robots to integrate into human society, with free will, with the ability to harm other humans. He's too used to having his own way and being able to bully the hosts so I believe he'll try and destroy the Maze when he actually sees what it's for. I think William, who at this point is far from the caring, kind person he used to be, will kill MiB and Dolores will succeed in completing the Maze.

 

[Maintenance]

Only managed to watch it now.

Holy shit.

 

[Cornballer]

- Logline and promo photos from this week's episode (please spoiler tag any discussion)

 

[Smiley90]

As noted by Vanity Fair, any scene with characters telling Bernard important information suddenly becomes chilling. Theresa tells Bernard about the board's concerns, and Ford is ready for her in that tense meeting in the restaurant. Elsie tells Bernard that she's alone, and she gets grabbed/killed. That whole scene with Bernard and Ford when he learns about Arnold for the first time is even more interesting; Ford's comments and mannerisms say so much.

People saying two timelines/William=MIB will be cheap and ruin the show, but I think after how expertly they handled this reveal, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt

I'm not following this thread for reasons other people have outlined much better (too much speculation = takes away from my own enjoyment) but what are people's reasons to think there's multiple timelines and William=MiB? Because I can't see that at all. Do we have any indication or is it just purely speculation?

 

[Ferrio]

I'm not following this thread for reasons other people have outlined much better (too much speculation = takes away from my own enjoyment) but what are people's reasons to think there's multiple timelines and William=MiB? Because I can't see that at all. Do we have any indication or is it just purely speculation?

There's even more evidence of the two timelines than Bernard = Host IMO, and people still called that one correctly. William = MIB is still up in the air, but it's the most logical conclusion if you believe the two timelines.

 

[Smiley90]

There's even more evidence of the two timelines than Bernard = Host IMO, and people still called that one correctly.

such as? Feel free to spoiler-tag if you'd like, not sure what the rules are

the only one I can think of is Lawrence but then he only showed up in William's story after MiB killed him so that's not really clear-cut.

someone in management = host was a fairly reasonable speculation from the start given the info though, Bernard specifically as one of the main protagonists, I can see why people would say that. I only had the thought from the beginning of that episode so I'm happy I didn't read here beforehand and was able to speculate by myself haha. The two timelines thing I don't get at all though.

edit: nvm I read up on it, the two timelines kind of make sense, not necessarily William=MiB though.

 

[Ferrio]

such as? Feel free to spoiler-tag if you'd like, not sure what the rules are

I don't really have the time to type out a huge post, maybe someone else can or direct you to a previous one in this thread. Sorry.

 

[RustyNails]

So is Ford going to make Teresa a robot now?

 

[More_Badass]

I'm not following this thread for reasons other people have outlined much better (too much speculation = takes away from my own enjoyment) but what are people's reasons to think there's multiple timelines and William=MiB? Because I can't see that at all. Do we have any indication or is it just purely speculation?

1) Different logos. The logo seen when William arrives is different from the current logo we've seen. That logo has been seen in places associated with the past: the ruined area acting as cold storage, on the jacket of a scientist in the flashback about the early days of the park, and on the computer when Bernard goes to the old area to open the legacy data

2) Man in Black. He's been coming to the park for 30 years. He states how he was born in the park. He has a long history with Dolores. He tells Lawrence how they fought Ghost Braves together and that he knew Lawrence in the past.
In William's story, Logan tells him how people learn who they really are in the park (a rebirth, so to speak). He meets Lawrence in Pariah, and last episode they fought off and survived an attack by Ghost Braves
Also the Man In Black's disillusion with the park is a thematic juxtaposition to William's growing infatuation with the park

3) Delos. The talk between WIlliam and Logan present the park as a struggling venture with a prospective buyoff in the works. While the current storyline has the park as a successful place controlled and maintained by Delos.

4) Dolores, Bernard, and Arnold. We know from scenes with Ford that Arnold wanted Dolores to destroy the park and that the Man In Black helped save the park in some way. We also know the Maze was Arnold's creation, which begs the question why Bernard told Dolores to find it.
This implies that those scenes with Bernard and Dolores are actually Arnold talking with Dolores, setting her on the path to destroy the park. And the journey we see with William and Dolores is the one with that fateful end: Dolores attempting to enact Arnold's plan and failing, and something that happens between them that shatters William's belief in the park's illusion and kindles that cynical perspective we see in the Man In Black.

 

[-griffy-]

There's some other stuff too, like the opening storylines being different when William and Logan get off the train versus other characters, and Clementine seemingly running the brothel instead of Maeve (we know Maeve had a different role in the past). And the obvious fact that William and MiB haven't appeared in a scene together.

 

[Jill Sandwich]

I just want to say I like the cut of Dolores' pants.

 

[Kor of Memory]

There was something about stories, too. I think.

The last episode had William mentioning something about how he used to bury himself in story books. And the MiB talked about stories in the first or second episode.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

So is Ford going to make Teresa a robot now?

I hope not but I wouldn't be surprised. The tech behind this show is already pushing into "magic" territory.

 

[duckroll]

WilliamLand - No Hector wanted posters, no Maeve as the madame, Lawrence isn't a fugitive, Teddy isn't seen anywhere

MiBLand - Hector is the main early level boss event, Maeve runs the brothel, Lawrence is an outlaw on the run, Teddy is always in Sweetwater helping newcomers

 

[Future]

Dolores also is seen changing her view of the world. The most obvious where she picks up a buried gun, puts gun in drawer, looks down and the gun is gone. This shows how Dolores could be remembering past events (now that her memories have been unlocked similar to Maeve). It happened again on the train where there were people in the cabin with her then suddenly they were gone

Also, ford is seen talking to Dolores asking about Arnold. She says it's been 35 years or so since they've spoken, then when ford leaves she starts talking to herself claiming he doesn't know. They never explain who she is talking to although the assumption is it's Arnold. That could be the Bernard we've been seeing talk to her before, only that he is never actually there but in her head (it's a "dream"), and that he is arnold.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

There's some other stuff too, like the opening storylines being different when William and Logan get off the train versus other characters, and Clementine seemingly running the brothel instead of Maeve (we know Maeve had a different role in the past). And the obvious fact that William and MiB haven't appeared in a scene together.

Whoa, I never noticed that Clementine was running the brothel in the William timeline. I thought Maeve was there and figured it had to be after her "run in with the ghost tribe" timeline/dream.

 

[Za-Neen-Jya]

How far we've come

Don't forget:

EDWARD FORTY-HANDS

 

[Dandy Lyin]

I really hope Elsie isn't dead. I'm pretty sure she is... but I really like her character and hope she comes back somehow.

 

[Corpekata]

Elsie was kidnapped by current Dolores, because after all if the flashback theory holds true, current Dolores has to be doing something.

 

[captainraincoat]

Theroy time....what if Arnold killed ford and replaced him as a host....then the host ford killed arnold and has been trying to figure out a way to escape the park ever since as failsafes that arnold put into the hosts prevent him from leaving

Would explain fords ability to control things without having to say a word.....(the snake ect)....would also give the mib much motive as the show seems to be hinting at immortality and resurection and maybe mib is looking for that prize and the maze is the key.

 

[Ferrio]

Elsie was kidnapped by current Dolores, because after all if the flashback theory holds true, current Dolores has to be doing something.

Damn you might be onto something. Do we have any confirmation that where Elsie is at is near where Dolores was headed?

 

[Speevy]

Theroy time....what if Arnold killed ford and replaced him as a host....then the host ford killed arnold and has been trying to figure out a way to escape the park ever since as failsafes that arnold put into the hosts prevent him from leaving

Would explain fords ability to control things without having to say a word.....(the snake ect)....would also give the mib much motive as the show seems to be hinting at immortality and resurection and maybe mib is looking for that prize and the maze is the key.

The Assassination of Arnold James by the Host Robert Ford

 

[Smiley90]

1) Different logos. The logo seen when William arrives is different from the current logo we've seen. That logo has been seen in places associated with the past: the ruined area acting as cold storage, on the jacket of a scientist in the flashback about the early days of the park, and on the computer when Bernard goes to the old area to open the legacy data

2) Man in Black. He's been coming to the park for 30 years. He states how he was born in the park. He has a long history with Dolores. He tells Lawrence how they fought Ghost Braves together and that he knew Lawrence in the past.
In William's story, Logan tells him how people learn who they really are in the park (a rebirth, so to speak). He meets Lawrence in Pariah, and last episode they fought off and survived an attack by Ghost Braves
Also the Man In Black's disillusion with the park is a thematic juxtaposition to William's growing infatuation with the park

3) Delos. The talk between WIlliam and Logan present the park as a struggling venture with a prospective buyoff in the works. While the current storyline has the park as a successful place controlled and maintained by Delos.

4) Dolores, Bernard, and Arnold. We know from scenes with Ford that Arnold wanted Dolores to destroy the park and that the Man In Black helped save the park in some way. We also know the Maze was Arnold's creation, which begs the question why Bernard told Dolores to find it.
This implies that those scenes with Bernard and Dolores are actually Arnold talking with Dolores, setting her on the path to destroy the park. And the journey we see with William and Dolores is the one with that fateful end: Dolores attempting to enact Arnold's plan and failing, and something that happens between them that shatters William's belief in the park's illusion and kindles that cynical perspective we see in the Man In Black.

1) Never noticed that, possible

2) eh, I'm not buying it exactly.

3) I can see that, though that doesn't necessarily mean much given how a company's status is displayed internally vs externally

4) That's just conjecture/speculation though.



Wasn't there a scene where the people in the control room were saying "Dolores is way off her loop, go check in with her" and then it cut to the sheriff checking up on her with William saying she's with him? That could have just been a clever cut meaning Dolores is off-loop in both timelines and it just looked like the same one, but logically it'd mean it's the same timeline.

They're definitely leaving it intentionally vague, though.

WilliamLand - No Hector wanted posters, no Maeve as the madame, Lawrence isn't a fugitive, Teddy isn't seen anywhere

MiBLand - Hector is the main early level boss event, Maeve runs the brothel, Lawrence is an outlaw on the run, Teddy is always in Sweetwater helping newcomers

Mhmmm you're right, I don't remember seeing those. We'll have to see.


But even IF they are two different timelines, that still doesn't automatically mean William=MiB. MiB might just as well be a host. Anyone could be a host at this point. (Okay maybe except Elsie)

The big shocker of the show will be Ford being a host himself

 

[Apoc29]

So is Ford going to make Teresa a robot now?

It certainly seems like they're going in that direction. I'm a little iffy on the technology they have available, though. As far as we know, all the hosts are programmed by humans to have specific personalities. Whether these personalities are hand-crafted or "imported" from actual people has yet to be determined, but if it's the former I don't see how Ford can program a host to act exactly like Theresa with nothing but a dead body and some passing memories of her. It's possible he could train an AI to be like Theresa using recording footage of her, but he would need a lot of data to get passable results.

 

[Elandyll]

1) Different logos. The logo seen when William arrives is different from the current logo we've seen. That logo has been seen in places associated with the past: the ruined area acting as cold storage, on the jacket of a scientist in the flashback about the early days of the park, and on the computer when Bernard goes to the old area to open the legacy data

2) Man in Black. He's been coming to the park for 30 years. He states how he was born in the park. He has a long history with Dolores. He tells Lawrence how they fought Ghost Braves together and that he knew Lawrence in the past.
In William's story, Logan tells him how people learn who they really are in the park (a rebirth, so to speak). He meets Lawrence in Pariah, and last episode they fought off and survived an attack by Ghost Braves
Also the Man In Black's disillusion with the park is a thematic juxtaposition to William's growing infatuation with the park

3) Delos. The talk between WIlliam and Logan present the park as a struggling venture with a prospective buyoff in the works. While the current storyline has the park as a successful place controlled and maintained by Delos.

4) Dolores, Bernard, and Arnold. We know from scenes with Ford that Arnold wanted Dolores to destroy the park and that the Man In Black helped save the park in some way. We also know the Maze was Arnold's creation, which begs the question why Bernard told Dolores to find it.
This implies that those scenes with Bernard and Dolores are actually Arnold talking with Dolores, setting her on the path to destroy the park. And the journey we see with William and Dolores is the one with that fateful end: Dolores attempting to enact Arnold's plan and failing, and something that happens between them that shatters William's belief in the park's illusion and kindles that cynical perspective we see in the Man In Black.

There's also all the signals that MiB is someone either with some level of power in the real world, or more likely someone attached to Delos but removed enough from direct control that not everyone knows him (cf the control room tech saying he can do whatever he wants), and William happens to be about to marry in Delos's owners family (or board) and is made a VP as such.
Coincidence?
There's also the knife of course.

 

[Smiley90]

It certainly seems like they're going in that direction. I'm a little iffy on the technology they have available, though. As far as we know, all the hosts are programmed by humans to have specific personalities. Whether these personalities are hand-crafted or "imported" from actual people has yet to be determined, but if it's the former I don't see how Ford can program a host to act exactly like Theresa with nothing but a dead body and some passing memories of her. It's possible he could train an AI to be like Theresa using recording footage of her, but he would need a lot of data to get passable results.

I think the idea is that Bernard should have a LOT of data on Theresa's behaviour, especially if he was specifically set up to gather such information.

 

[Matty77]

1)


But even IF they are two different timelines, that still doesn't automatically mean William=MiB. MiB might just as well be a host. Anyone could be a host at this point. (Okay maybe except Elsie)

MIB is the one person guaranteed not to not be a host.

1. Recognized by a guest as a very important person in the real world with a foundation doing philanthropy saving lives.

2. When control asks why their not stopping a guest from doing that kind of damage they are told he's earned the right to do whatever he wants

3. He attacks ford but teddy stops him why would ford have a host under his own control attack him with no witnesses? In that conversation he also states he saved the park from Arnold's plan thirty years ago, which must be how he earned the right to do what he wants.

So if William and dolores are thirty years ago and heading towards the incident it's something the MIB stops so unless he is a rando out of nowhere that really only leaves William or Logan.

I say you buy it all or not at all because of the time thing is true MIB's in show statements would put him at the scene

 

[Dmax3901]

"Born in the park" as in it was in the park where he learned to stop pretending about who he was. Once he gave up on the real world and fell in love with Dolores, he was 'reborn' and perhaps has been there ever since? Or at least has been coming back often.

@Corpekata yeah shit hey. When was the last time we saw her in the present timeline? Digging up the gun and riding off? Would be a great WHOOOAAA moment to have Elsie's attacker turn around and it be Dolores, especially for those not expecting the split timelines.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

"Born in the park" as in it was in the park where he learned to stop pretending about who he was. Once he gave up on the real world and fell in love with Dolores, he was 'reborn' and perhaps has been there ever since? Or at least has been coming back often.

@Corpekata yeah shit hey. When was the last time we saw her in the present timeline? Digging up the gun and riding off? Would be a great WHOOOAAA moment to have Elsie's attacker turn around and it be Dolores, especially for those not expecting the split timelines.

Could have been in the town where the little girl drew the map in the dirt. Not sure why ops didn't bring her back in at the time though.

 

[Hyun Sai]

"Born in the park" as in it was in the park where he learned to stop pretending about who he was. Once he gave up on the real world and fell in love with Dolores, he was 'reborn' and perhaps has been there ever since? Or at least has been coming back often.

There is no way he stayed in the Park, as a guest recognized him with his old appearance. Only thing for sure is that he stated this is his last trip.

 

[Burt]

Don't forget:

EDWARD FORTY-HANDS

It really is something how this show changed my view on some of the actors in it. Hopkins and Harris and Evan Rachel Wood and Marsden and Thandie Newton et. al are all established and/or recognized as varying levels of great, but I love the light it's shining on some lesser known members of the cast.

Jeffrey Wright was one of those actors that I always liked, but seemed locked into roles that didn't give him room to capitalize or just weren't good movies -- aka "Ryan Reynolds Syndrome". I hated the guy that plays Lawrence, Clifton Collins Jr. Hated him in Pacific Rim, hated him in Triple 9, and might've hated him more in the first 10 minutes of the Boondock Saints sequel that I had to turn off more than I've hated any actor in anything. But Lawrence is the man. And, Jimmi Simpson? I don't even think of McPoyle when I see him at this point, which is something that I never thought would happen. It's great to see everyone killing it.

Spoiler

On the other hand, I never really liked Ben Barnes in anything, and while I think he plays his role well here, it falls pretty short of commendable.

 

[Error]

anyone else fiending for episode 8?

the one episode per week format works great for this show, though, keeps the discussion going.

 

[a Master Ninja]

The big shocker of the show will be Ford being a host himself

Now THAT would feel cheap and piss me off.

 

[saunderez]

So is Ford going to make Teresa a robot now?

If it's not Teresa I think it's going to be Charlotte Hale.

 

[UberLevi]

The big shocker of the show will be Ford being a host himself

It's actually going to be the opposite and Ford is the only human on the show, surrounded by hosts from the park to the labs. He's been waiting for them to figure it all out after constant iterations, just waiting for any of them to come to the realization that Westworld isn't the only thing that's fabricated. Why else do you think none of the staff at Westworld seem to have lives outside work?

 

[Joni]

It's actually going to be the opposite and Ford is the only human on the show, surrounded by hosts from the park to the labs. He's been waiting for them to figure it all out after constant iterations, just waiting for any of them to come to the realization that Westworld isn't the only thing that's fabricated. Why else do you think none of the staff at Westworld seem to have lives outside work?

Because they have to stay there for months at a time?

 

[royalan]

Rewatching episodes, and something that continues to stick out to me that I don't see getting talking about much.

The kid admitted to lying to Ford! It's the ONE time so far in the show that Ford seemed genuinely surprised.

What does it meaaaaannnnnn

 

[Rentahamster]

It certainly seems like they're going in that direction. I'm a little iffy on the technology they have available, though. As far as we know, all the hosts are programmed by humans to have specific personalities. Whether these personalities are hand-crafted or "imported" from actual people has yet to be determined, but if it's the former I don't see how Ford can program a host to act exactly like Theresa with nothing but a dead body and some passing memories of her. It's possible he could train an AI to be like Theresa using recording footage of her, but he would need a lot of data to get passable results.

Remember how Bernard would always comment on Theresa's body language? In the first episode, he even mentions wanting to study it for analysis.

 

[Kalentan]

I had to rewind at the: "What door?" scene, I thought I hadn't seen it but then it was like: "Oh shit."

This show man. Too fucking good.

 

[Future]

Now THAT would feel cheap and piss me off.

It would explain the host mind and gesture control though. I don't notice any consistency on how he controls shit. He has no device but somehow can stop 100s of hosts by simply thinking about it

 

[royalan]

It would explain the host mind and gesture control though. I don't notice any consistency on how he controls shit. He has no device but somehow can stop 100s of hosts by simply thinking about it

He's not the only one we've seen do that, though.

Whenever Delos staff enter the park all nearby hosts stop.

 

[More_Badass]

It would explain the host mind and gesture control though. I don't notice any consistency on how he controls shit. He has no device but somehow can stop 100s of hosts by simply thinking about it

Or it's an enclosed environment with sensors everywhere that react to his gestures.

He's not the only one we've seen do that, though.

Whenever Delos staff enter the park all nearby hosts stop.

Yeah, but not how he does it. It's clear that the way he can stop and control the hosts with a mere move of his finger is something special.

 

[duckroll]

I dunno, eh, nanomachines.

 

[JDB]

He'll always be McPoyle for me and it bugs me a lot.

 

[Kyou]

I went back to see if I could see what the Bernard blueprints said on them for the name, but it looks like they actually blurred that part of the page out.

When Teresa is handing the pages to Bernard(before the close up of him looking at them) the body print is sharp but the name area looks intentionally blurred out.

Which is pretty telling

 

[Future]

I went back to see if I could see what the Bernard blueprints said on them for the name, but it looks like they actually blurred that part of the page out.

When Teresa is handing the pages to Bernard(before the close up of him looking at them) the body print is sharp but the name area looks intentionally blurred out.

Which is pretty telling

If it said Arnold or something, Teresa would have saw it and wouldn't have asked Ford if Bernard took him out. It probably just said Bernard, and he couldn't see it since it "didn't look like anything"

 

[Chiaroscuro]

It's actually going to be the opposite and Ford is the only human on the show, surrounded by hosts from the park to the labs. He's been waiting for them to figure it all out after constant iterations, just waiting for any of them to come to the realization that Westworld isn't the only thing that's fabricated. Why else do you think none of the staff at Westworld seem to have lives outside work?

I like the idea of Ford being the only human in the park, maybe even the last human on Earth, creating hosts in the hope they becone one day self aware.

But he talked about the outside world, like it is some sort of utopia (at least to a part if the humanity) and MiB is clearly an human. I think that Westworld is located in sonewhere very remote, that is why most of the staff lives there.

 

[Solo]

The deeper we get into the episodes, the longer the week seems to be - still 3 more days til Episode 8

 

[shira]

I went back to see if I could see what the Bernard blueprints said on them for the name, but it looks like they actually blurred that part of the page out.

When Teresa is handing the pages to Bernard(before the close up of him looking at them) the body print is sharp but the name area looks intentionally blurred out.

Which is pretty telling

What if it says

Spoiler

Jeffrey Wright

Inceptiondog.gif

 

[silva1991]

@@

holy shit.